62613 Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 What if instead of rebuilding them as rather ungainly pacifics Thompson had rebuilt the P2's as 2-4-4-2's and as compounds with 2 HP cylinders and 2 LP cylinders? Thompson was after simplifying Gresley designs, not adding further complication Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard i Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 the simplist solution was 3 sets of valve gear and move them to the southern section of the GN and swap out the same number of A4s as was done in the end up to 1966. Not a very noticable conversion on a model but would allow them in BR green / blue Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 the simplest solution was 3 sets of valve gear and move them to the southern section of the GN and swap out the same number of A4s... Or even simpler, since the six P2s were not 1% of the LNER's conjugated gear equipped locomotive fleet, don't bother with any alteration at all; the re-allocations alone solves the problem. (The deviation from standard practise that the Thompson wide firebox classes represent was shown for what it was by their earlier scrapping than that of the classes they were supposed to supercede. A folly.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Black Hat Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 How about this: What with new build being the current fad, I decided that Black Hat Ltd, would buy a new medium size tank engine for hire to lines. As a result - the L4! An L1, but with improved pony truck, extra stays and feed from the boiler to the cylinders more in tune like the K1. More NER style smokebox to give it that better uniform look with an Eastern region machine, and Westinghouse Pump fitted to work with both vac and air stock. Theres also AWS battery box fitted on the frame, but also has TPWS fitted to cab. Warning stickers mean she can go mainline too. Very nice.... 11 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 It's a neat idea. Add cylinders circa 17.5" x 26" to the spec. to cure the over-cylindered imbalance of the design. A class 4 doesn't need a starting tractive effort commensurate with a class 7/8 type, and there was insufficient adhesion to make full use of the TE at low speed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Black Hat Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Indeed, if you turn an L4 into a tank version of the K1, its a sure winner in my opinion. The L1 was a nice bit of kit, but it was more of a case of over powering the machine. The K1 by comparrison is very finely balanced overall, and very reliable as a design. Just a shame I dont have the finance, or I would build the thing myself! Maybe I should start a facebook group to explore starting one! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Black Hat Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 (edited) Of course, my most well known conversion to an imaginery engine will be the one that most have seen done in the P2 thread, and my workbench thread in Modifying, Detailing RTR stock, here: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/79026-the-black-hats-workbench/ The idea was that with two groups working on the P2 engine, Black Hat Ltd, formed a new company buying the rights to the name of the North Eastern Railway. Here, engines owned would be put into one company and hired to lines that were wanting engines. The P2, being built was a replica of 2001 as first built, but with changes to the tender giving her a corridor connection, making access to the support coach easier. Somewhat controversially it was outshopped as 60603 wearing BR Late Crest Green, in the number sequence vacant in the Eastern region numbering scheme - with the first two announced new build engines given the first two spaces in the sequence. 60603 was given the name Eleventh Earl of Mar to keep its Scottish theme and links with its forebearers. Equiped with TPWS, OTMR, it was soon mainline working heavy tours in the North East and west largely with WCRC, replacing the diesel traction that brought tours up from the south. Quickly it soon gained a nickname as 'the other Earl', in reference to 5043, Earl of Mount Edgcumbe. Main runs ran off York or Helifield to Carlisle, or over into Edinbrugh via Beatock, with some tours up the ECML to the same destination. If only.... Daddy, Daddy. You Promised! Edited March 31, 2015 by The Black Hat 9 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scots region Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 How about this: What with new build being the current fad, I decided that Black Hat Ltd, would buy a new medium size tank engine for hire to lines. As a result - the L4! An L1, but with improved pony truck, extra stays and feed from the boiler to the cylinders more in tune like the K1. More NER style smokebox to give it that better uniform look with an Eastern region machine, and Westinghouse Pump fitted to work with both vac and air stock. Theres also AWS battery box fitted on the frame, but also has TPWS fitted to cab. Warning stickers mean she can go mainline too. IMG_0574.JPG IMG_0575.JPG Very nice.... Very nine indeed, you could even shorten the body and slide a 2-6-2 chassis under it for a V5. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium John M Upton Posted April 5, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 5, 2015 Had a read of my Father in Law's book on Maunsell this morning and one thing that caught my eye was the never carried our proposal to build a new 0-6-0T loco using the Billington E2 class (of Thomas the Tank engine fame!!) as a starting point. This has got me thinking about a 0-6-0T tank with Maunsell style cab and boiler features.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 With two ex-GN express locos getting RTR models, we can really let imagination fly and have buildable results (for those willing to choke up the cash). What if Mr Gresley (as he then was) after construction of the U1 realised that a big wheel Garratt should be trialled fot the speed and power potentially on offer. Huge steam supply and Doncaster's proven 8 foot wheel for keeping piston stroke rate down in the 'all-out speed' express version, double single 4-2-2 + 2-2-4; while the double atlantic 4-4-2 + 2-4-4 provided a fast heavy mixed traffic unit. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devo63 Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 Over the years I've drawn up (and thrown away) a wide selection of plans for locomotives for the GWR supposing that the broad gauge had survived into the twentieth century. My favorite was a two cylinder (inside) 4-6-0 with 7 foot driving wheels and a Churchward short cone boiler with no top feed. I always thought that this could be the BG equivalent of the 'Saint' class but designed for express West of England services from Paddington in the Edwardian era. What a sight something like that would have been tearing down the Wellington bank with the 'Ocean Mails' in 1904 instead of 'City of Truro'. I might have to start designing engines for all the other railways of Britain after they had lost the 'Battle of the Gauges'. Dave 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 11, 2015 Share Posted April 11, 2015 Over the years I've drawn up (and thrown away) a wide selection of plans for locomotives for the GWR supposing that the broad gauge had survived into the twentieth century. My favorite was a two cylinder (inside) 4-6-0 with 7 foot driving wheels and a Churchward short cone boiler with no top feed. I always thought that this could be the BG equivalent of the 'Saint' class but designed for express West of England services from Paddington in the Edwardian era. What a sight something like that would have been tearing down the Wellington bank with the 'Ocean Mails' in 1904 instead of 'City of Truro'. I might have to start designing engines for all the other railways of Britain after they had lost the 'Battle of the Gauges'. Dave Many years ago and while idling away an evening quaffing several mugs of ale, I had a discussion with a friend along these very lines, and I'm sure we aren't the only ones to have touched on this. In our case, we imagined a 4-cylinder version of what you propose, something like a Castle and for the post-grouping era, complete with even wider Centenary stock. Of course, it could never have happened: the argument about transshipment of goods at change-of-gauge points was perfectly valid, as we all know, but fantasy's good for those of us blessed with, shall we say, somewhat wilder imaginations. A pity you threw away your drawings. I don't doubt I'm not the only one who would like to have seen what you came up with. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeOxon Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 (edited) ...............supposing that the broad gauge had survived into the twentieth century. In around 1930, one William Collard, Chairman of the London and Paris Railway Promoters Ltd. proposed to build a Channel Tunnel together with a new, broad gauge (7ft) railway from London to Paris. For more information see, for example: http://archives.chicagotribune.com/1947/06/08/page/115/article/english-channel-tunnel Perhaps, in true Brunellian spirit, he should have gone the whole hog and proposed an atmospheric railway! Electric pumps at intervals along the tunnel would keep the pipe evauated and, at the same time bring fresh air into the tunnel. Brunel also planned to use large wheels on his carriages with the passenger compartments mounted within them. Taking that idea as well, and applying it to an articulated train, could lead to something like my sketch below: Mike ps how would a junction be made on an atmospheric railway? Edited April 13, 2015 by MikeOxon 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 All junctions are co-located with either pumping stations or supply lines from pumping stations. It's extremely simple, the 'powapipe' stops short of all point work, and has highly ingenious 'ratprufe' end seals to allow the train pistons to pass through and swiftly reseal. With multiple pistons on the train, there will always be one in powapipe to eliminate the risk of trains stopping 'gapped'. It will be appreciated that there is some loss of power and slight surging as the pistons leave and enter the powapipe. But the French have now licked this for their Train Grande Vide. Massive traversers over 2km long with pump supply to the powapipe on the traverser section simply move the train sideways while running at full speed. All powapipe end seals are made once the train is on the traverser section, before it moves. With the end seals made the traverser does its stuff, and then re-establishes and opens the powapipe connections before the train reaches the end of the traversing section. It's so deliciously obvious that it truly is amazing that IKB didn't get such a thing built. Nothing could possibly go wrong. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
talisman56 Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 ps how would a junction be made on an atmospheric railway? I dread to think... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeOxon Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 All junctions are co-located with either pumping stations or supply lines from pumping stations. It's extremely simple, the 'powapipe' stops short of all point work, and has highly ingenious 'ratprufe' end seals to allow the train pistons to pass through and swiftly reseal. With multiple pistons on the train, there will always be one in powapipe to eliminate the risk of trains stopping 'gapped'. It will be appreciated that there is some loss of power and slight surging as the pistons leave and enter the powapipe. But the French have now licked this for their Train Grande Vide. Massive traversers over 2km long with pump supply to the powapipe on the traverser section simply move the train sideways while running at full speed. All powapipe end seals are made once the train is on the traverser section, before it moves. With the end seals made the traverser does its stuff, and then re-establishes and opens the powapipe connections before the train reaches the end of the traversing section. It's so deliciously obvious that it truly is amazing that IKB didn't get such a thing built. Nothing could possibly go wrong. as you say - totally fool-proof and well-proven on so many model railways! An alternative would be a length of flexitrack (with integral flexipipe) simply twisted to meet the appropriate destination track. Has anyone built a fiddle yard on that principle? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Flying Pig Posted April 26, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 26, 2015 Would it not be more Brunellian to simply demolish the various destinations and rebuild them on a suitably sized traverser so that the train could be pointed at its destination with uninterrupted motive force and without undesirable transverse disturbances to its motion or its passengers'convenience? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted April 26, 2015 Share Posted April 26, 2015 Back on locomotives, anyone had thoughts of a BR turbomotive? This can be a very different beast from the Stanier first thoughts. Doesn't need big wheels, there has to be a gearbox between turbine and axle, and that makes it potentially much easier to fit in a large boiler with turbine underneath possibly integral with the driven wheels frame. ...An alternative would be a length of flexitrack (with integral flexipipe) simply twisted to meet the appropriate destination track. Has anyone built a fiddle yard on that principle? The alignment of the rails - horizontal, vertical, longitudinal- would demand a very well designed mechanism. I rather think the large turntable remains the simpler winner, but am sure that out there - somewhere- is a mechanical wizard who is up for it. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sylvian Tennant Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 I've managed to finally complete my BR Blue 8F, hopefully more locos shall be on the way in the future. Personally speaking, i would have liked to have seen this happen. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raised On Steam Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 (edited) Nice!! Where'd you get the WM stones steam generator? I've been looking for one of those. Edited June 22, 2015 by Raised On Steam 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Vistisen Posted June 22, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 22, 2015 In around 1930, one William Collard, Chairman of the London and Paris Railway Promoters Ltd. proposed to build a Channel Tunnel together with a new, broad gauge (7ft) railway from London to Paris. For more information see, for example: http://archives.chicagotribune.com/1947/06/08/page/115/article/english-channel-tunnel Perhaps, in true Brunellian spirit, he should have gone the whole hog and proposed an atmospheric railway! Electric pumps at intervals along the tunnel would keep the pipe evauated and, at the same time bring fresh air into the tunnel. Brunel also planned to use large wheels on his carriages with the passenger compartments mounted within them. Taking that idea as well, and applying it to an articulated train, could lead to something like my sketch below: BraodGaugeChunnel.jpg Mike ps how would a junction be made on an atmospheric railway? Brunel does a toyata previa! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sylvian Tennant Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 Nice!! Where'd you get the WM stones steam generator? I've been looking for one of those. RT models http://www.rtmodels.co.uk/rt_models_022.htm Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raised On Steam Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 Ace thanks! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catkins Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 I'm just pondering what a loco would look like if it had been produced using the same principles and panels as the Leyland National and 141/142 DMU family. Also what would a "National" Carriage look like with bus doors. Ahh here comes nursey with my medication. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Moxy Posted August 2, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 2, 2015 Also what would a "National" Carriage look like with bus doors. It was done, not with bus doors, it had proper coach type doors, but here is a link to it. http://www.semgonline.com/coach/leyland.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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