Imaginary Locomotives

[Sylvian Tennant]

I'm struggling to think of a single good reason why coal fired (or oil fired) steam locomotives would make sense on any level in the modern world.

 

Political predicaments and financial issues preventing modernisation, plentiful supplies of cheaper fuels (coal, bagasse). There's a lot of talk about China being the last stronghold of regular steam, but someplace in eastern europe and smaller islands/countries are still be found utilising steam locomotives in very limited numbers.

 

West Germany still had steam locomotives until about a decade after BR steam, East Germany twenty years after...

Edited January 11, 2018 by Sylvian Tennant

[DavidB-AU]

Political predicaments and financial issues preventing modernisation, plentiful supplies of cheaper fuels (coal, bagasse). There's a lot of talk about China being the last stronghold of regular steam, but someplace in eastern europe and smaller islands/countries are still be found utilising steam locomotives in very limited numbers.

 

West Germany still had steam locomotives until about a decade after BR steam, East Germany twenty years after...

South Africa until 1997(?) and as mentioned above Zimbabwe still does to some extent. North Korea still uses steam on some non-electrified (mainly branch) lines and isolated narrow gauge lines.

 

Cheers

David

[Regularity]

West Germany still had steam locomotives until about a decade after BR steam, East Germany twenty years after...

In the former, they wanted to get some value for money out of the capital investment made in steam after the war. (Unlike the unseemly haste to dump it in this country: steam was supposed to go in 1972, despite Bullied designing pacifics intended to run until the mid 80s.)

In the latter, I think it was just the result of a lack of capital investment, full stop.

[DavidB-AU]

In the former, they wanted to get some value for money out of the capital investment made in steam after the war. (Unlike the unseemly haste to dump it in this country: steam was supposed to go in 1972, despite Bullied designing pacifics intended to run until the mid 80s.)

Under the 1955 Modernisation Plan there was still supposed to be around 7,000 steam locos in 1970 with the Standards having a working life of 25 years, meaning Evening Star should have retired in 1985. IIRC the rebuilt Bulleid pacifics were intended to remain in service until slidey rail reached Exeter around 1980.

 

It's also worth noting that Hunslet was building new Austerity tanks up to 1964.

 

EDIT: When did Castle Donnington Power Station retire its last RSH saddle tanks?

 

Cheers

David

Edited January 11, 2018 by DavidB-AU

[FPH 603]

Under the 1955 Modernisation Plan there was still supposed to be around 7,000 steam locos in 1970 with the Standards having a working life of 25 years, meaning Evening Star should have retired in 1985. IIRC the rebuilt Bulleid pacifics were intended to remain in service until slidey rail reached Exeter around 1980.It's also worth noting that Hunslet was building new Austerity tanks up to 1964.EDIT: When did Castle Donnington Power Station retire its last RSH saddle tanks?CheersDavid

How interesting... I never knew this was actually part of the plan. Then what changed? What made BR withdraw steam locomotives earlier than planned? I suspect (but don't know for sure) that this could have been Beeching's doing.

[lazythread]

Beeching wasn't directly responsible for the earlier demise of steam, although the mass line closures during the 1960s helped. There were several reasons, the failure to update archaic working conditions causing staff recruitment and retention problems, clean air acts as a result of the lethal smogs during the 1950s, and the huge cost of running steam traction vs diminishing revenues, among others.

 

Critics will say that steam should have lasted longer, or that it didn't go quickly enough. Given the politics of the time and rapid changes to society post WW2, I think BR did pretty well. Britain didn't shrug off the economic shackles of two World Wars until the the end of the 20th Century and the railways suffered as a result.

[ian@stenochs]

Suppose Drummond did a 2-6-0 inside-cylinder Mogul based on his 700 Class 0-6-0? What do you think?

Drummond, Peter that is, did build an inside cylindered superheated 2-6-0 and very handsome and efficient it was too!

 

Ian.

[Compound2632]

Suppose Drummond did a 2-6-0 inside-cylinder Mogul based on his 700 Class 0-6-0? What do you think?

 

Here's a Drummond inside-cylinder mogul.

 

EDIT: Ian beat me to it! But I've given you a picture.

Edited January 11, 2018 by Compound2632

[PhilJ W]

It was also intended to use steam in the coalfields of Patagonia, even to the extent of purchasing the last Sentinel steam waggons built. But then it was realised that the coalfield was in a very dry desert.

[runs as required]

I think this should be posted across from Stubby47's inventive thread on modelling this 108-year-old Patiala State Monorail installed by the Maharaja of Patiala now,at the National Rail Museum in New Delhi.

Visitors now have the chance to experience its ride every Thursday. When I saw it over 5 years ago, it looked like it would never steam again.

 

Any offers to design a competitor/successor ?

dh

[LNWR18901910]

Here's a Drummond inside-cylinder mogul.

 

EDIT: Ian beat me to it! But I've given you a picture.

Yes, I understand. Still, it's worth a try in model form.

[TheQ]

I think this should be posted across from Stubby47's inventive thread on modelling this 108-year-old Patiala State Monorail installed by the Maharaja of Patiala now,at the National Rail Museum in New Delhi.

Visitors now have the chance to experience its ride every Thursday. When I saw it over 5 years ago, it looked like it would never steam again.

 

Any offers to design a competitor/successor ?

dh

not a mono rail but it's been done.

 

Cambridge guided busway

Edited January 11, 2018 by TheQ

[Northmoor]

I'm struggling to think of a single good reason why coal fired (or oil fired) steam locomotives would make sense on any level in the modern world.

About 20 years ago I went to a very good talk at the IMechE by one of the senior engineers from DLM in Switzerland - it was about the technology and economics of the new steam locos built for an Alpine mountain railway.

 

The business case for them was based on them being a better investment than new diesels or electrification.  They did not have to make any allowance for increased tourist traffic as a result of the trains being steam-hauled (actually propelled), they already provided the best return on investment.  However, I seem to remember the presenter conceded this railway was quite a special case. 

[runs as required]

not a mono rail but it's been done.

6159657027_748fe47d39_b1.jpg

 

Cambridge guided busway

We had a short trial guided busway on Newcastle quayside about twenty years back. The major objection (unlike the PS monorail) was that it resulted in a segregated track so couldn't be used as a general highway - or even cross one on the level unlike a modern street tram/metro

 

Does this still operate on the old LNW Varsity line.trackbed or has it been diverted ready for the much vaunted re-instatement of the Varsity railink..?

dh

[Regularity]

I thought it never operated on the varsity line, rather the GER branch to Huntingdon.

[Compound2632]

I thought it never operated on the varsity line, rather the GER branch to Huntingdon.

 

That to the north, Varsity line to the south.

[sir douglas]

there was a bus guide way in leeds, some of the buses in leeds and wakefield still have the guide wheels

[cctransuk]

We had a short trial guided busway on Newcastle quayside about twenty years back. The major objection (unlike the PS monorail) was that it resulted in a segregated track so couldn't be used as a general highway - or even cross one on the level unlike a modern street tram/metro

 

Does this still operate on the old LNW Varsity line.trackbed or has it been diverted ready for the much vaunted re-instatement of the Varsity railink..?

dh

 

The guided bus can, and does, cross 'general highways' - the guideway ends temporarily and restarts on the other side.

 

It does run south of Cambridge on a short section of the 'Varsity' line - but the majority is north of Cambridge on the former Cambridge - St. Ives branch.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[sem34090]

I had a play with a few Hornby catalogue images in MS paint: apologies if anything similar has already been posted!

 

First up, a GWR Collett Bow-Ended Overhead EMU, articulated (Because, why not?!) and shown in BR Days wearing Crimson and Cream for reasons unknown, given it should really be MU green.

 

Inspired by discussions over the GWR's plans for electrification,

 

Another idea, based on their close neighbour's example, and to allow inter-regional services to be run more efficiently, Collett's take on the Southern's 2-BIL unit, suitably enhanced to provide decent competition to their rivals. Again, it seems this unit is anachronistically painted in Crimson and Cream. Trust the Western to do something odd...( )

 

Continuing the EMU theme, we have a single coach Passenger unit, modified from half of a 2-Hal set of which the other half had been partially destroyed in an accident in the 1950's. The cab end from the DM(or is it T?)S was rebuilt onto the rear  of the DMBS. Following this rebuild it found use on the Horsted Keynes - Haywards Heath branch where service was limited. It is seen here right at the end of its life. Following the closure of the branch, the unit bounced around the network a bit before being claimed for deicing duties and departmental use. It was withdrawn in 1984, and can currently be found mouldering away under a tarpaulin right up the end of the Ardingly Spur on the Bluebell. When the line is restored to Haywards Heath, there may be plans to electrify it and this unique vehicle will once again form a shuttle between Haywards Heath and Horsted Keynes.

 

Bulleid's refined, light and mechanically stoked ( ) leader... 'nuff said really... 

 

Finally, a Sentinel Industrial Master and Slave unit. May have been of use to LT, where their 6wDH sentinels had issues with track circuits due to their short wheelbase.

 

I think I'll leave it at that... or not... there's more horrors to come!

I can't think how to describe these... Maunsell Push-Pull trailer, combined with an Adams Radial (Looking more like a Beattie Well Tank), and a Drummond Boiler. If it was in Bulleid Malachite we'd have a bit of each of the LSWR CME's except Urie. Lettered up for a fictional route heading South from Barnham towards Selsey (LBSCR Station).

Don't ask... that said, I'm quite pleased with them...

 

 

[DavidB-AU]

Continuing the EMU theme, we have a single coach Passenger unit, modified from half of a 2-Hal set of which the other half had been partially destroyed in an accident in the 1950's. The cab end from the DM(or is it T?)S was rebuilt onto the rear  of the DMBS. Following this rebuild it found use on the Horsted Keynes - Haywards Heath branch where service was limited. It is seen here right at the end of its life. Following the closure of the branch, the unit bounced around the network a bit before being claimed for deicing duties and departmental use. It was withdrawn in 1984, and can currently be found mouldering away under a tarpaulin right up the end of the Ardingly Spur on the Bluebell. When the line is restored to Haywards Heath, there may be plans to electrify it and this unique vehicle will once again form a shuttle between Haywards Heath and Horsted Keynes.

 

Here's a related idea.

 

 

Cheers

David

[sem34090]

Ah, Mr Bulleid's Motor Luggage van, I believe!

 

Where did the batteries go for the quayside working at Folkestone? 

[scots region]

not a mono rail but it's been done.

6159657027_748fe47d39_b1.jpg

 

Cambridge guided busway

What’s the advantage of a guided bus way over conventional roads? I assume it’s an anti-congestion effort. Edited January 12, 2018 by scots region

[DavidB-AU]

First up, a GWR Collett Bow-Ended Overhead EMU, articulated (Because, why not?!) and shown in BR Days wearing Crimson and Cream for reasons unknown, given it should really be MU green.

I see your Collett EMU and raise you Railcars No.39 and 40 in a proper livery.

 

 

Cheers

David

[Pandora]

The LNER  express diesel fleet to replace ECML  pacifics,  agreed in principle by the LNER board but lost and forgotten due to aftermath of WW2 and nationalisation,  author Michael Bonavia wrote on the subject,   Woodhead and Great Eastern suburban electrification projects became the priority and diesel fleet  proposal quietly forgotten

 

i wonder what the locos would have resembled ,   similar to an EM1 or EM2  but in a diesel electric form, or an American influence  such as LMS 10000. The LNER electrification engineer having  been sent to the USA to look into dieselisation  of the USA railroads.

Edited January 12, 2018 by Pandora

[TheQ]

What’s the advantage of a guided bus way over conventional roads? I assume it’s an anti-congestion effort.

No cars, no congestion till they have to join real roads, and the busway can be narrower as the bus is kept on line by the track, politicians get brownie points if it works, they like big projects..