RLBH Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 If American experience is any guide, the 2-8-2 and 2-8-4 types seem to have been pretty much the ultimate development of the heavy mixed-traffic steam locomotive, with the 4-6-4 as the ultimate development for high speed, heavy duty work I'd agree with that except that 4-6-4s were well on the way to being replaced by 4-8-4s when dieselisation hit. 4-8-4s represent the ultimate development for fast passenger work where steam lasted a little longer, notably South Africa and China. No work anywhere in Europe warranted such power, the big German 4-6-4s and French Chapelon 4-8-2s sufficed. Quite a few passenger 4-8-2s in North America, too. To my mind the natural running mate of a 4-8-4 is a 2-10-4 - both massively overpowered for European needs, of course, but there were a fair few in the US and Canada for fast freight where a 2-8-4 didn't have the power needed. Another - Doncaster is given a free reign in styling it's AC electrics, and the AL5's emerge looking like a lengthened, twin pantograph version of a class 71. There's a thought. Presumably if Doncaster were given a free reign, the same would apply to BRCW, Beyer-Peacock, English Electric and NBL. This could result in some very interesting looking beasts.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold rodent279 Posted January 22, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 22, 2019 Quite a few passenger 4-8-2s in North America, too. To my mind the natural running mate of a 4-8-4 is a 2-10-4 - both massively overpowered for European needs, of course, but there were a fair few in the US and Canada for fast freight where a 2-8-4 didn't have the power needed. There's a thought. Presumably if Doncaster were given a free reign, the same would apply to BRCW, Beyer-Peacock, English Electric and NBL. This could result in some very interesting looking beasts.... Hmmm......a Hymek with a pantograph anyone? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satan's Goldfish Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 Was actually thinking of a Deltic with pans the other day for WCML Express work if EE had been allowed to style... but of the original AC locos the EE AL3 is my favourite, not far off fitting 2 of those in a Deltic body so it could have a 'limp home' option when half of it fails! 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted January 22, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 22, 2019 Quite a few passenger 4-8-2s in North America, too. To my mind the natural running mate of a 4-8-4 is a 2-10-4 - both massively overpowered for European needs, of course, but there were a fair few in the US and Canada for fast freight where a 2-8-4 didn't have the power needed. There's a thought. Presumably if Doncaster were given a free reign, the same would apply to BRCW, Beyer-Peacock, English Electric and NBL. This could result in some very interesting looking beasts.... I've visited the Railway part of Canada's Science Museum, and the Selkirk is very, and I mean very, impressive. The real town of Selkirk is probably not much bigger... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 ... the Selkirk is very, and I mean very, impressive. The real town of Selkirk is probably not much bigger... Thirty percent larger yet is available in 2-10-4 format: take a trip to Amarillo and gawk at the Santa Fe's 2-10-4, not least for its 6'2" drivers because this was a fast locomotive, known to work up to 90mph. I believe that was the limit in all up weight and power output from rigid frame two cylinder locos in North America. (George Stephenson would have been mightily impressed that his Rocket concept had that much design stretch...) The SF's parallel 4-8-4 express loco development on 6'8" wheels is equally impressive, several preserved specimens available to view. The SF had a rough time with some earlier large loco experiments, and in consequence pushed the two cylinder simple rigid frame loco as far as was possible. None of that articulation or compounding nonsense for them... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RLBH Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 Thirty percent larger yet is available in 2-10-4 format: take a trip to Amarillo and gawk at the Santa Fe's 2-10-4, not least for its 6'2" drivers because this was a fast locomotive, known to work up to 90mph. I believe that was the limit in all up weight and power output from rigid frame two cylinder locos in North America. (George Stephenson would have been mightily impressed that his Rocket concept had that much design stretch...) The SF's parallel 4-8-4 express loco development on 6'8" wheels is equally impressive, several preserved specimens available to view. The SF had a rough time with some earlier large loco experiments, and in consequence pushed the two cylinder simple rigid frame loco as far as was possible. None of that articulation or compounding nonsense for them... The UP's 4-12-2s are also interesting, not least for being one of the few classes of 3-cylinder locomotive in North America - and using Gresley valve gear to boot - and as far as I'm aware the largest successful rigid frame locomotive. The Challenger was essentially the answer to the question of how to get a 4-12-2 around a corner. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockershovel Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 Rather depressing piece here http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2016/07/25-amarillo-looks-to-sell-santa-fe-2-10-4-steamer Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Tilt Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 Hmmm......a Hymek with a pantograph anyone? There was nearly a Warship with a pantograph, albeit a non-operational one. 832 Onslaught was delivered to the RTC in the mid-70s with a view to using it as a test vehicle for the APT-P power bogie, transmission and ant-tilt pantograph mechanism, the plan being to retain the standard diesel and hydraulic trasnmission bogie at the other end to actually move it. The conversion never happened as such a modification wouldn't be able to tilt more than 3 degrees without fouling the gauge, resulting in 832 languishing at the RTC for umpteen years until it was rescued. Shane Wilton has done a superb model of the planned conversion, in RTC red-blue of course, in 00 and it's a big crowd puller on the DEMU stand at shows when it's exhibited. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold rodent279 Posted January 23, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 23, 2019 There was nearly a Warship with a pantograph, albeit a non-operational one. 832 Onslaught was delivered to the RTC in the mid-70s with a view to using it as a test vehicle for the APT-P power bogie, transmission and ant-tilt pantograph mechanism, the plan being to retain the standard diesel and hydraulic trasnmission bogie at the other end to actually move it. The conversion never happened as such a modification wouldn't be able to tilt more than 3 degrees without fouling the gauge, resulting in 832 languishing at the RTC for umpteen years until it was rescued. Shane Wilton has done a superb model of the planned conversion, in RTC red-blue of course, in 00 and it's a big crowd puller on the DEMU stand at shows when it's exhibited. Interesting. How would you get it to tilt without interfering with the transmission & drive at the other end? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Corbs Posted January 23, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 23, 2019 There was nearly a Warship with a pantograph, albeit a non-operational one. 832 Onslaught was delivered to the RTC in the mid-70s with a view to using it as a test vehicle for the APT-P power bogie, transmission and ant-tilt pantograph mechanism, the plan being to retain the standard diesel and hydraulic trasnmission bogie at the other end to actually move it. The conversion never happened as such a modification wouldn't be able to tilt more than 3 degrees without fouling the gauge, resulting in 832 languishing at the RTC for umpteen years until it was rescued. Shane Wilton has done a superb model of the planned conversion, in RTC red-blue of course, in 00 and it's a big crowd puller on the DEMU stand at shows when it's exhibited. Indeed, it's appeared on this page in this very thread https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/14790-imaginary-locomotives/page-151 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Tilt Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 (edited) Interesting. How would you get it to tilt without interfering with the transmission & drive at the other end? The plan was to fit splined driveshafts as I recall, but it didn't get as far as cutting any metal at all. It was vastly too expensive to cut away the body shell at the cantrails to improve the clearances so it never really got started. We built the Trestrol (Lab 24) instead! Edited January 23, 2019 by Mr_Tilt 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satan's Goldfish Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 (edited) Didn't expect it to look quite this bad...... I think i'll go back to steam engines. English Electric using the class 55 body shell and bogies for their own version of an AC electric. I imagine it to be 2x class 83 in 1 body... Failure is an option! Edit, this one might be abit more reliable, it's clearly had some attention as it's now running with BW high-speed pans... Edited January 23, 2019 by Satan's Goldfish 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold rodent279 Posted January 23, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 23, 2019 (edited) Didn't expect it to look quite this bad...... I think i'll go back to steam engines. Electric Deltic.jpg English Electric using the class 55 body shell and bogies for their own version of an AC electric. I imagine it to be 2x class 83 in 1 body... Failure is an option! Edit, this one might be abit more reliable, it's clearly had some attention as it's now running with BW high-speed pans... Nice. Quite plausible, but I reckon had EE styled it, a Bo-Bo would be the result, as that's what BR specified. Maybe something like a Baby Deltic with a pantograph would be more likely.A Co-Co might have ended up being something of a cross between a Deltic and the Dutch 1200 class. Edited January 23, 2019 by rodent279 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold rodent279 Posted January 23, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 23, 2019 There's quite a few combinations possible. We've seen above how D832 nearly got a pantograph. Well NBL built Warships, and at nearly the same time built class 84's. Maybe if they'd been given a free reign to style them, the 84's could have ended up looking like a Warship? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted January 24, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 24, 2019 Or the Warships could have ended up looking like 84s, a far better looking beast than the pregnant bathtub that the NB and Swindon production Warships were. And there might even have been room to fit air brakes to them, which might have extended their service life a little. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold rodent279 Posted January 24, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 24, 2019 Or the Warships could have ended up looking like 84s, a far better looking beast than the pregnant bathtub that the NB and Swindon production Warships were. And there might even have been room to fit air brakes to them, which might have extended their service life a little. Pregnant bathtub! With that, you officially win RMWeb for today! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbo675 Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 Hi Folks, Here is a North British electric locomotive, it is a SAR type 4E and runs on 1Co-Co1 bogies. It is a looks to me like a long class 84 on class 40 bogies. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/16/SAR_Class_4E_E238.jpg/970px-SAR_Class_4E_E238.jpg The SAR type 3E were built by Metropolitan Vickers and has a look of the gas turbine about them and the SAR type 5E wer built by English electric having a style all of their own. Gibbo. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scots region Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 Just a little thought, I'm currently navigating my way through Peter Payes book on the Southwold Railway, like the Irish Narrow Gauge, the Southwold was three foot, not too far off from the continental metre gauge. This has gotten me thinking, what if something 'thinged' in the past and the south of England ended up being criss-crossed by French style metre gauge lines that both intersected with each other and standard gauge routes. Just an idea. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 Why so little narrow gauge in the UK? Probably because there was enough money from early industrialisation to fund building in standard gauge even where the economic prospects were insufficient to really support it. Was there ever any national effort to define a suitable standard for narrow gauge during C19th? My ignorance on this aspect of UK railway development is truly limitless. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Northmoor Posted January 24, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 24, 2019 Why so little narrow gauge in the UK? Probably because there was enough money from early industrialisation to fund building in standard gauge even where the economic prospects were insufficient to really support it. Was there ever any national effort to define a suitable standard for narrow gauge during C19th? My ignorance on this aspect of UK railway development is truly limitless. The lack of agreement on a suitable standard can be best demonstrated by looking at Welsh Slate railways. Even adjacent quarries around Llanberis had different gauges (varying by less then an inch....). Then you head South towards Towyn and the local standard was just over 3" wider. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scots region Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 Why so little narrow gauge in the UK? Probably because there was enough money from early industrialisation to fund building in standard gauge even where the economic prospects were insufficient to really support it. Was there ever any national effort to define a suitable standard for narrow gauge during C19th? My ignorance on this aspect of UK railway development is truly limitless. Well there was a briefly mooted plan after the Great War to extend the government subsidies, that had been propping up the likes of the Londonderry and Lough Swilly Railway in Northern Ireland, to the rest of the UK and fund a series of light and narrow gauge railways in rural parts. Highlights included the 'Argyllshire Light Railway, which would have been a narrow gauge line running from Dalmally to Southend at the bottom of the Kintyre Peninsula. I invite you to examine the distance between those two points to understand the... uniqueness of this proposal. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RLBH Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 Why so little narrow gauge in the UK? Probably because there was enough money from early industrialisation to fund building in standard gauge even where the economic prospects were insufficient to really support it. Was there ever any national effort to define a suitable standard for narrow gauge during C19th? My ignorance on this aspect of UK railway development is truly limitless.3-foot gauge was fairly common for contractor's railways, though it didn't seem to get much love for permanent infrastructure. I did estimate once that had the Highland Railway built to a 3-foot gauge north of Inverness, it could have built all the branch lines that it proposed. Working costs wouldn't fall proportionately, though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted January 24, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 24, 2019 (edited) I didn't like the look of the V200s much, and a poor British wannabee was never going to win any prizes from me. OTOH, I thought the Westerns were the most elegantly styled British diesel loco of all time, with the Hymeks a pretty close runner up in the original livery. Sitting in the cab of a Western gave you a feeling of innate superiority over lesser beings, though actually the cab was awful; too hot in summer, draughty in winter, and difficult (and IMHO dangerous) to climb into. The little corridors you had to negotiate between the outer doors and the actual cab door would induce claustrophobia in an earthworm. Edited January 24, 2019 by The Johnster Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted January 24, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 24, 2019 The lack of agreement on a suitable standard can be best demonstrated by looking at Welsh Slate railways. Even adjacent quarries around Llanberis had different gauges (varying by less then an inch....). Then you head South towards Towyn and the local standard was just over 3" wider. Don't forget the Padarn: 4' 0". Why not go the whole hog and make it standard? Or drop to the fairly common 3' 6" of the colonies. Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCB Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 Don't forget the Padarn: 4' 0". Why not go the whole hog and make it standard? Or drop to the fairly common 3' 6" of the colonies. Keith At least finding 4mm scale 4ft ish gauge track would not be be a big obstacle to modelling the Padarn in 00 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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