Imaginary Locomotives

[The Johnster]

Yes i'd forgotten the W's and should have said that the Southern never built another 2-6-4T for passenger work, which was perhaps hobbling itself a bit as a big 2-6-4T with a decent turn of speed is ideally suited to much of it's Central and Eastern sections' outer suburban work.  Of course, this was itself steadily being electrified which took the pressure off a bit.  The W's were used for transfer freights from the big marshalling yards, and were indeed noted for rough riding at speed.  

 

Post nationalisation, 2-6-4Ts made a big comeback on the Central and Eastern sections with no problems resulting from the decision to use them, again mostly being ousted by the expanding 3rd rail network.  In view of Gibbo's observation, it would be interesting to hear if the Rivers were better riders after rebuilds as tender moguls.  Some were 3 cylinder locos and these should have been better in this respect than their 2 cylinder sisters.  But there cannot be many people still living in a position to comment!

Edited February 7, 2019 by The Johnster

[Gibbo675]

2 hours ago, DavidB-AU said:

If anyone is visiting the Science Museum, there are a lot of diagrams of proposed locos in the E.S. Cox papers.

 

https://collection.sciencemuseum.org.uk/documents/aa110092359

 

Cheers

David

Hi David,

 

Interesting link you have there, I recognise a lot of the proposed diagrams from reading both volumes of E.S. Cox's of Locomotive Panorama.

 

Is there any way to view the drawings listed on line ?

 

Gibbo.

[Corbs]

I wasn't sure where to put this as it's neither imaginary locos or fictitious liveries, but I thought the audience might appreciate it. 

 

Whilst flicking through 'locomotive panorama' this passage jumped out at me. Would make an interesting subject to model!

[Satan's Goldfish]

Continuing my fetish of creating Mikados using an 8f chassis under express passenger locomtives, here's the GWR King boilered version. I think the trailing axle is from an A4, so I added a couple of details from the King lead axle to Swindonise it a little. Quite what shape the firebox is following all that I don't know! (original base loco(s) left in for comparison)

 

 

That got me thinking, I prefer my turn of the century GWR style, so could the same be achieved by smooshing together a 28xx and a Saint?

 

 

 

I've been very restrained, I didn't give it TGBs tender!

[Gibbo675]

23 minutes ago, Corbs said:

I wasn't sure where to put this as it's neither imaginary locos or fictitious liveries, but I thought the audience might appreciate it. 

 

Whilst flicking through 'locomotive panorama' this passage jumped out at me. Would make an interesting subject to model!

Hi Corbs,

 

A quality read, I do hope you have both volumes !

 

Gibbo.

[The Johnster]

22 minutes ago, Corbs said:

I wasn't sure where to put this as it's neither imaginary locos or fictitious liveries, but I thought the audience might appreciate it. 

 

Whilst flicking through 'locomotive panorama' this passage jumped out at me. Would make an interesting subject to model!

 

It was either on this occasion or a similar one at Marylebone that Riddles, in charge of demonstrating the Black 5s to the livery committee, pulled a flanker on them by having a spare Black 5 'specially prepared' in LNWR lined black and calling it up at a suitable juncture.  BR's mixed traffic livery consequently became LNWR lined black, IMHO a wise choice that suited every loco it was ever applied to.

 

Not sure I can commend anyone who regards LNER apple green, a rather gaudy fairground livery at best, as acceptable when condemning malachite, just as bad in my view, in the same sentence.  

 

Puts on tin hat and retires to nuclear fallout shelter until the dust settles...

[Corbs]

14 minutes ago, Gibbo675 said:

Hi Corbs,

 

A quality read, I do hope you have both volumes !

 

Gibbo.

It was your mention that prompted me to order a few from second hand stockists online! Unfortunately Vol.II has arrived first so I await the other in anticipation...

[Gibbo675]

4 minutes ago, Corbs said:

It was your mention that prompted me to order a few from second hand stockists online! Unfortunately Vol.II has arrived first so I await the other in anticipation...

Hi Corbs,

 

Volume I. deals with E.S. Cox's apprenticeship at Horwich and his involvement in the testing of LMS locomotive types in the 1920's through to the volume production of standard LMS types of which most were to Stanier designs.

Locomotive testing involved efficiency testing of extant types and trials of new ideas to either improve old locomotives or the development of new ones.

 

Hang in there, best to read them in the order of writing.

 

Another interesting book is, "Memoirs of a Locomotive Engineer" by Edgar J Larkin who trained underr the Midland at Derby and latterly a contemporary of E.S. Cox.

 

Gibbo.

[Gibbo675]

49 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

 

It was either on this occasion or a similar one at Marylebone that Riddles, in charge of demonstrating the Black 5s to the livery committee, pulled a flanker on them by having a spare Black 5 'specially prepared' in LNWR lined black and calling it up at a suitable juncture.  BR's mixed traffic livery consequently became LNWR lined black, IMHO a wise choice that suited every loco it was ever applied to.

 

Not sure I can commend anyone who regards LNER apple green, a rather gaudy fairground livery at best, as acceptable when condemning malachite, just as bad in my view, in the same sentence.  

 

Puts on tin hat and retires to nuclear fallout shelter until the dust settles...

Hi Johnster,

 

In Vol. II. I like the translation of the Russian graffiti !

 

Gibbo.

[Steamport Southport]

1 hour ago, Corbs said:

I wasn't sure where to put this as it's neither imaginary locos or fictitious liveries, but I thought the audience might appreciate it. 

 

Whilst flicking through 'locomotive panorama' this passage jumped out at me. Would make an interesting subject to model!

 

Probably worth correcting the quote in the book.

 

The LMS had already discontinued red livery for locomotives so it's doubtful they would have put a red locomotive forward. LMS livery was already lined black for passenger locomotives and unlined for freight.

 

Both Ivatt and Riddles were LNWR men so they wouldn't be advocating Midland red.

 

 

Worth looking in Big Four In Colour as most of the locomotives in the experimental liveries are pictured.

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Big-Four-Colour-1935-50/dp/0906899621/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1549919268&sr=1-1&keywords=big+four+in+colour

 

 

Jason

[melmerby]

4 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Both Ivatt and Riddles were LNWR men so they wouldn't be advocating Midland red.

Jason

Riddles was very much a "Black Paint" man.

He's on record as having said about that loco parade that he managed to get almost all locos painted black.

It's likely that if he had had his way all passenger locos would have been in a version of LNWR lined black and the rest plain black.

There is a passage in Essery & Jenkinson's "LMS Locomotives Vol 5" also recalling that parade and Riddles "sneaked in" LNWR black Class 5

[rodent279]

On 06/02/2019 at 23:17, rockershovel said:

 

More to the point, narrow gauge engines tend to be slow. The Davies, Metcalfe 2-6-2T at the VoR are 25 tons, over 8’ wide on 2’ gauge and have tanks which completely conceal the boiler, but they seem to manage well enough. 

Didn't realise they were 8ft wide! That's almost standard gauge width.

[rodent279]

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

Riddles was very much a "Black Paint" man.

He's on record as having said about that loco parade that he managed to get almost all locos painted black.

It's likely that if he had had his way all passenger locos would have been in a version of LNWR lined black and the rest plain black.

There is a passage in Essery & Jenkinson's "LMS Locomotives Vol 5" also recalling that parade and Riddles "sneaked in" LNWR black Class 5

The devil in me so wants to see a couple of preserved Black 5's done out in Apple green, GWR green and Malachite green, if only to see the reactions of the purists. I think Caledonian blue would have suited a Black 5.

I think the Germans got it right (as always) with matt black boilers etc and red wheels.

[melmerby]

14 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

The devil in me so wants to see a couple of preserved Black 5's done out in Apple green, GWR green and Malachite green, if only to see the reactions of the purists. I think Caledonian blue would have suited a Black 5.

 

As long as it is only lined out on one side (the other side is plain) and numbered in the range M4762-4 (4762 was SR Malachite, 4763 was LNER Apple Green & 4764 was GWR Middle Chrome Green)

Unfortunately the number of Riddles "sneaked in" LNWR liveried example is not recorded

[The Johnster]

I am impressed with all the BR choices except the Caledonian blue for 8P locos; LNWR lined black looked good on everything that wore it (including City of Truro's brief appearance for April Fool's that time) and so did GW lined green for passenger locos.

 

My personal favourite livery for steam locomotives is Maunsell period Southern olive green with yellow lining, despite my GW leanings.  

[Moxy]

2 hours ago, melmerby said:

As long as it is only lined out on one side (the other side is plain) and numbered in the range M4762-4 (4762 was SR Malachite, 4763 was LNER Apple Green & 4764 was GWR Middle Chrome Green)

Unfortunately the number of Riddles "sneaked in" LNWR liveried example is not recorded

 

The 'LNWR' liveried example was 5292, black, lined red with white lettering, according to 'British Railways Locomotives 1948.'  (OPC ISBN 0860934667).  A couple of months later, as 45292, it was in full LNWR livery at a display at Marylebone.

 

Moxy

Edited February 12, 2019 by Moxy
spelling mistook

[rodent279]

4 hours ago, The Johnster said:

I am impressed with all the BR choices except the Caledonian blue for 8P locos; LNWR lined black looked good on everything that wore it (including City of Truro's brief appearance for April Fool's that time) and so did GW lined green for passenger locos.

 

My personal favourite livery for steam locomotives is Maunsell period Southern olive green with yellow lining, despite my GW leanings.  

Personally, I like the Caledonian blue. Wasn't a darker shade used as well?

[Corbs]

I know topic is drifting but I couldn't resist posting these again after @The Johnster mentioned it. 

 

Handsome!

 

 

Also reminds me of Frappington Jct's rebuild of a Bachmann 'Emily' into a BR-era Stirling Single

 

 

Edited February 12, 2019 by Corbs

[Niels]

10 hours ago, rodent279 said:

 

I think the Germans got it right (as always) with matt black boilers etc and red wheels.

 

Red wheels and framing is easy to inspect for cracks.

Edited February 12, 2019 by Niels

[rodent279]

1 hour ago, Corbs said:

I know topic is drifting but I couldn't resist posting these again after @The Johnster mentioned it. 

 

Handsome!

 

 

Also reminds me of Frappington Jct's rebuild of a Bachmann 'Emily' into a BR-era Stirling Single

 

 

I remember the CoT spoof well, and it does look good in those colours. Come on NRM, you know you want to.....

[Blandford1969]

16 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

I remember the CoT spoof well, and it does look good in those colours. Come on NRM, you know you want to.....

There were quite a few mugs of tea thrown by some over the painting which was done and then rubbed down again to remove all evidence in only a few days. As one photo shows it was only on one side. 

[DCB]

Just shows how right Swindon was to paint Mixed traffic types with small tenders unlined black..   Which idiot came up with the idea of applying labour intensive lining to Black locos instead of slapping on Green paint without lining like the GWR used to do?   Made no sense at all.

[The Johnster]

7 hours ago, rodent279 said:

Personally, I like the Caledonian blue. Wasn't a darker shade used as well?

I think there were 3 different blues in all, the Caley, a Great Eastern dark blue which was a bit more dignified, and a third unlined mid blue applied to 7/60007 Sir Nigel Gresley.  This was slighly different from Garter Blue and suited that particular locomotive very well with BRITISH RAILWAYS branding on the tender.

 

Despite my dislike of Caley blue on big modern locomotives, I'd have to say it sat very well on the later 25kv Glasgow area 'Blue Train' emus, and was not dissimilar to the 'Electric Blue' which looked pretty good on the AL series electric locos; horses for courses I suppose.

 

The Woodhead electrics show what might have been had the standard steam liveries and lining been used on other diesel and electric locos.

 

My issue with the brighter liveries, Caley blue, apple or malachite green, etc, is the difficulty of keeping them clean and the way they show the dirt.  They might have been workable in Victorian or Edwardian days under regimes where locos were allocated to individual drivers who of course took a pride, but the situation on the ground in the post war era is that very few sheds had staff available to clean pool locos, and those that did were noted for it!  Canton, noted for it, only managed to clean locos for top link jobs and even then only those for Paddington or off-region work.  

 

Locos, even steam, are usually clean nowadays, but railways are still a pretty mucky environment.  It must be hard for those too young to remember even back as far as the 80s how generally dirty most locos were most of the time, though.  In steam days it was worse, of course, and coaches were pretty mucky as well. inside and out.  We used to think it was fun to beat the seats and choke on the thick cloud of foul dust that resulted; upholstery had to be hard wearing and not look as dirty as it really was as well!

[scots region]

10 hours ago, Corbs said:

I know topic is drifting but I couldn't resist posting these again after @The Johnster mentioned it. 

 

Handsome!

 

 

Also reminds me of Frappington Jct's rebuild of a Bachmann 'Emily' into a BR-era Stirling Single

 

 

 

I wonder if anyone would have the nerve to do that to the Rapido model. 

[AlfaZagato]

58 minutes ago, scots region said:

 

I wonder if anyone would have the nerve to do that to the Rapido model. 

Send one of the Rapido models to me in Chicago and I'll do it.