Imaginary Locomotives

[scots region]

17 hours ago, Corbs said:

Jebus! I think we lucked out in real life. Looks like the Hughes 4-6-0 and a Manning Wardle industrial had an illegitimate child!

 

To be fair the artist has made it look far longer and taller than I think it would have been. The official drawing shows it to be much more gainly if massively proportioned. Its a brutalist design though. 

[mccormackpj]

Robin

44 minutes ago, scots region said:

 

To be fair the artist has made it look far longer and taller than I think it would have been. The official drawing shows it to be much more gainly if massively proportioned. Its a brutalist design though. 

 

Robin Barnes' illustration on p45 of "Locomotives that never were" shows a Belpaire firebox, tho' he makes no reference to the source of that detail, nor to any uncertainty as to the type of firebox Fowler intended. His illustration of the Horwich 2-10-0 does show a round-topped firebox, however.

[PhilJ W]

3 hours ago, richard i said:

Yes but that gives us the start. A princess bottom a crab top and tender and scratch the rest. 

Are you allowed to scratch a princesses bottom?

[scots region]

41 minutes ago, mccormackpj said:

Robin

 

Robin Barnes' illustration on p45 of "Locomotives that never were" shows a Belpaire firebox, tho' he makes no reference to the source of that detail, nor to any uncertainty as to the type of firebox Fowler intended. His illustration of the Horwich 2-10-0 does show a round-topped firebox, however.

 

Ahh, but how can we tell a square shoulder from a slightly larger curve from a 2-dimensional drawing? Though I do agree that a belpair would probably be the logical choice for engineering simplicity, would do wonders for the looks as well. 

 

ScR 

[AlfaZagato]

Do you think, should nationalization not happened, would GWR have introduced something akin to the Blue Pullman of their own accord?   Lightweight Centenaries, fitted with pressure ventilation, and a streamlined diesel to suit?   Would said streamlined diesel follow normal loco practice in lined green, or would it be C&C as the railcars?   I might try to model something like this, if I could pick up the Hornby Centenaries cheap.

[rodent279]

1 minute ago, AlfaZagato said:

Do you think, should nationalization not happened, would GWR have introduced something akin to the Blue Pullman of their own accord?   Lightweight Centenaries, fitted with pressure ventilation, and a streamlined diesel to suit?   Would said streamlined diesel follow normal loco practice in lined green, or would it be C&C as the railcars?   I might try to model something like this, if I could pick up the Hornby Centenaries cheap.

Intriguing thought. Maybe gas turbine powered.....

I think the Big Four were actually looking at standardised ranges of coaching stock that could go anywhere, and presumably would have been used as common user vehicles. Possibly something for long distance, cross country and inter-regional use would have been developed collaboratively, maybe with detail differences to suit company requirements.

[Zomboid]

When would the GWR have looked to electrification if there had been no nationalisation? Probably before 1997 or whenever it was. And where? London to Reading seems obvious, but were the flows in and around South Wales or Birmingham more suitable?

[Gibbo675]

1 hour ago, mccormackpj said:

Robin

 

Robin Barnes' illustration on p45 of "Locomotives that never were" shows a Belpaire firebox, tho' he makes no reference to the source of that detail, nor to any uncertainty as to the type of firebox Fowler intended. His illustration of the Horwich 2-10-0 does show a round-topped firebox, however.

 

53 minutes ago, scots region said:

 

Ahh, but how can we tell a square shoulder from a slightly larger curve from a 2-dimensional drawing? Though I do agree that a belpair would probably be the logical choice for engineering simplicity, would do wonders for the looks as well. 

 

ScR 

Hi Chaps,

 

I would suggest that;

 

It is well know how well researched the books of Brian Haresnape actually are, his use of an artist impression that was commissioned by the LMS that was indeed painted from drawings supplied by the LMS to the artist for the sake of accuracy, that the locomotive in question, should it have been built, would have had a round topped fire box. I cannot think that Brian Haresnape would have included  such a picture in one of his books if it were inaccurate in anything other than minor detail.

 

The locomotive was not to have been designed at Derby, therefore it matters not what Derby were or were not doing at the time. It was the influence of Derby that the project was dropped.

Horwich was designated design office and already had experience of designing and building some very large and also very unusual round topped fire boxes, cylinders were actually cast for the aborted project and these were also cast and machined at Horwich. It is also of note that Gresley trained at Horwich and continued the use of such round topped boilers on the LNER.

 

As noted by mccormackpj and to be absolutely fair to Robin Barnes, it would seem that he worked from only a side elevation for it is likely that the LMS engineering and publicity departments were not assisting him in the preparation of his excellent book. He seems also to have made the assumption of a Belpaire firebox.

 

All reasoned evidence produced so far points to a round topped fire box including a painting specifically commissioned by the LMS, with only those that prefer either guess work or that can't read drawings saying otherwise.

 

Think about it !!!!

 

Gibbo.

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, mccormackpj said:

Robin

 

Robin Barnes' illustration on p45 of "Locomotives that never were" shows a Belpaire firebox, tho' he makes no reference to the source of that detail, nor to any uncertainty as to the type of firebox Fowler intended. His illustration of the Horwich 2-10-0 does show a round-topped firebox, however.

 

... this drawing is Fig. 7 in Cox's paper linked to earlier. 

[melmerby]

3 hours ago, AlfaZagato said:

Do you think, should nationalization not happened, would GWR have introduced something akin to the Blue Pullman of their own accord?   Lightweight Centenaries, fitted with pressure ventilation, and a streamlined diesel to suit?   Would said streamlined diesel follow normal loco practice in lined green, or would it be C&C as the railcars?   I might try to model something like this, if I could pick up the Hornby Centenaries cheap.

Companies have shown that when something really special has been launched, a new livery accompanies it

Gresley's silver-grey locos & stock for the Silver Jubilee train.

Stanier's blue and silver for the Coronations.

Maybe the GWR would have picked blue? Maybe hark back to crimson lake again?*

Unfortunately we'll never know.

 

* there's a precedent with self propelled vehicles as the steam railmotors were around in the previous "lake" period

 

 

Edited February 19, 2019 by melmerby

[Gibbo675]

3 hours ago, AlfaZagato said:

Do you think, should nationalization not happened, would GWR have introduced something akin to the Blue Pullman of their own accord?   Lightweight Centenaries, fitted with pressure ventilation, and a streamlined diesel to suit?   Would said streamlined diesel follow normal loco practice in lined green, or would it be C&C as the railcars?   I might try to model something like this, if I could pick up the Hornby Centenaries cheap.

Hi Alfa,

 

How about this French contraption for styling ?

 

https://derbysulzers.com/sncf262BD1.html

 

I have to say it has something of the Blue Pullman about it. If you take the styling of the GWR railcars, the Blue Pullman and mixed up them with the above PLM Sulzer and some centenary coaches you could possibly make something that looks the part.

 

Gibbo.

[AlfaZagato]

9 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Companies have shown that when something really special has been launched, a new livery accompanies it

Gresley's silver-grey locos & stock for the Silver Jubilee train.

Stanier's blue and silver for the Coronations.

Maybe the GWR would have picked blue? Maybe hark back to crimson lake again?*

Unfortunately we'll never know.

 

* there's a precedent with self propelled vehicles as the steam railmotors were around in the previous "lake" period

 

 

I politely counter with GWR Centenaries, or the SR in general.    SR's few specials I'm aware of were either in the then-prevailing coach livery, or were operated by an outside service, such as Pullman or CiWS.    The GWR Super Saloons and Centenaries were in the same colors as the rest of the fleet.   Even the bullion van was C&C.   Still, the thought of Crimson Lake in the west, or even Indian Red could be appealing.   Such a path may engender comments of LMS-influence, though.

 

2 minutes ago, Gibbo675 said:

Hi Alfa,

 

How about this French contraption for styling ?

 

https://derbysulzers.com/sncf262BD1.html

 

I have to say it has something of the Blue Pullman about it. If you take the styling of the GWR railcars, the Blue Pullman and mixed up them with the above PLM Sulzer and some centenary coaches you could possibly make something that looks the part.

 

Gibbo.

Beyond my ignorance of the PLM locomotives, almost my exact idea.   I wonder if dimensions of the Sulzer motors are available; if those motors are small enough for the GWR loading gauge, that would be a good line on making this idea more plausible.   I wouldn't put it past the GWR to chase the power war with diesel, and they had worked with France before, though that was between Churchward and de Glehn.

[richard i]

6 hours ago, PhilJ W said:

Are you allowed to scratch a princesses bottom?

Only if you wish to be sent to the tower. You could mostly leave her bottom alone, it is the crab you have to hack back. But then less crabs is better all round. 

[Gibbo675]

Just now, richard i said:

But then less crabs is better all round. 

Wrong answer !!!

 

 

Gibbo.

[AlfaZagato]

Gibbo, is that one of those giant spider-crabs?

[richard i]

Impressive 

[melmerby]

How much longer before it has been totally cut up?

 

(It does look like one of those partially reduced locos you used to see in scrapyards in the '60s)

[Corbs]

6 hours ago, AlfaZagato said:

Do you think, should nationalization not happened, would GWR have introduced something akin to the Blue Pullman of their own accord?   Lightweight Centenaries, fitted with pressure ventilation, and a streamlined diesel to suit?   Would said streamlined diesel follow normal loco practice in lined green, or would it be C&C as the railcars?   I might try to model something like this, if I could pick up the Hornby Centenaries cheap.

 

How much of the GWR was there when the BR(W) pushed for diesel hydraulics? Would they have happened anyway regardless of BR?

[Gibbo675]

36 minutes ago, melmerby said:

How much longer before it has been totally cut up?

 

(It does look like one of those partially reduced locos you used to see in scrapyards in the '60s)

Hi Keith,

 

I haven't finished it yet !

 

Gibbo.

[Steamport Southport]

So that's what has happened to 42859...

 

 

 

Jason

[AlfaZagato]

5 hours ago, Corbs said:

 

How much of the GWR was there when the BR(W) pushed for diesel hydraulics? Would they have happened anyway regardless of BR?

Good question.   I've heard rumor, maybe posted much earlier in this thread, that there were talks of electrifying parts of the GWR before the war.   GWR had also ordered two gas-turbines before nationalization.    What diesel they did have were a handful of switchers, mostly diesel-electric, and the railcars, being diesel-mechanical.   I'd like to know where BR(W) got the bug for the hydraulics.

[Niels]

3 hours ago, AlfaZagato said:

Good question.   I've heard rumor, maybe posted much earlier in this thread, that there were talks of electrifying parts of the GWR before the war.   GWR had also ordered two gas-turbines before nationalization.    What diesel they did have were a handful of switchers, mostly diesel-electric, and the railcars, being diesel-mechanical.   I'd like to know where BR(W) got the bug for the hydraulics.

BR(W) was like Afghanistan never ruled by outsiders.

 

The Germans made some very ligth diesel engines and mechanical gearboxes that almost made it.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DB_Class_V_200

 

 

 

 

But did not in the end.

This was a technology choice suitable for the western tribes.

They did not think much of 9Fs either.

Edited February 20, 2019 by Niels

[RLBH]

8 hours ago, Corbs said:

 

How much of the GWR was there when the BR(W) pushed for diesel hydraulics? Would they have happened anyway regardless of BR?

 

That, as ever, is a complicated question, as there were two things at work.

 

Firstly, Western Region - and the GWR before it - found supplying coal in Devon and Cornwall to be a major headache. By rail from South Wales, Penzance is further away than London, and running steam locomotives needed a lot of coal to be brought down the line. That was costing the railway a lot of money, and lots of alternatives were investigated. Electrification west of Taunton was one of them; the oil-fired steam locomotives were another, before BR ruined it before trying to do too much too soon; there was also a proposal for diesel-electrics west of Newton Abbot in the late 1940s/early 1950s.

 

Then in the 1950s, BR was planning dieselisation. Most existing experience was with diesel-electrics, making them the natural choice to replace steam, but there was interest in the potential advantages of diesel-hydraulic locomotives so a trial with them was planned. Because they had different maintenance and operational requirements than diesel-electrics, it made sense to put them somewhere that they wouldn't wander out on to the rest of the network too much. To get a fair assessment of their potential, they needed to get a good mix of freight and passenger work, on main lines and branch lines.

 

These two problems dovetailed nicely. The problematic section of the WR was ideal as a testing ground for diesel-hydraulic traction, so it was chosen by the higher-ups; IIRC, Scotland was the other area considered for them. Once Swindon got their hands on the locomotives, they gained experience with the type. Since the structure of BR gave considerable independence to the Regions, it made sense that they'd choose more of what they knew for the Area 2 (Bristol) and Area 3 (South Wales) dieselisation, though by the time of the latter diesel-electrics were being dictated. Area 4 (Birmingham) was slightly different, since considerable interworking with diesel-electrics from other regions was expected, so Swindon decided to go for commonality with them and ordered diesel-electrics itself.

[Niels]

9 hours ago, AlfaZagato said:

   I'd like to know where BR(W) got the bug for the hydraulics.

 

Look no further and enjoy the story here:

 

http://www.greatwestern.org.uk/index-dh.htm

Edited February 20, 2019 by Niels
Wrong link

[Steamport Southport]

6 hours ago, RLBH said:

 

That, as ever, is a complicated question, as there were two things at work.

 

Firstly, Western Region - and the GWR before it - found supplying coal in Devon and Cornwall to be a major headache. By rail from South Wales, Penzance is further away than London, and running steam locomotives needed a lot of coal to be brought down the line. That was costing the railway a lot of money, and lots of alternatives were investigated. Electrification west of Taunton was one of them; the oil-fired steam locomotives were another, before BR ruined it before trying to do too much too soon; there was also a proposal for diesel-electrics west of Newton Abbot in the late 1940s/early 1950s.

 

 

I don't know about that as there was a massive coalfield in Somerset. The prime reason for building the S&DJR and the GWR building lines at Radstock and Writhlington.  1,250,000 tons per annum is a lot of coal.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somerset_Coalfield

 

 

 

Jason