Imaginary Locomotives

[Compound2632]

7 hours ago, Steven B said:

If 12 is the perfect number for a measurement system, why are there ... 14lb in a stone?

 

In order that 8 stone should be equal to 1 cwt (hundredweight), which is, of course, not 100 lb.

[melmerby]

7 hours ago, Steven B said:

If 12 is the perfect number for a measurement system, why are there 16 oz in a pound and 14lb in a stone?

 

Steven B

112lb in a hundredweight, Twenty shillings in a pound, 22 yards in a chain, 80 chains in a mile etc...........

It was all designed to give schoolchildren something to do.

 

[Compound2632]

... but the one I use most often is 25.4 mm = 1 in - that's when I'm not using 1 mm = 3 in!

[RLBH]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

... but the one I use most often is 25.4 mm = 1 in - that's when I'm not using 1 mm = 3 in!

When looking at old shipbuilding (and possibly other engineering) drawings, 40lb = 1in!

 

Caused no end of confusion in my office when we came across this convention as out of 12 engineers, I was the only one who'd ever heard of it.

[Mel_H]

On 02/03/2019 at 18:57, Mookie said:

Here's one I bolted together the other day.

 

 

Coal capacity might need increasing.

 

Kind regards,

 

Mookie.

Gosh! That would straighten all the curves in the colliery...

[The Johnster]

On 03/03/2019 at 09:45, BernardTPM said:

Variety is the spice of life.

No, garlic is the spice of life.

 

Edit; no it isn't, it's a herb not a spice.  Ok, paprika is the spice of life.

Edited March 4, 2019 by The Johnster

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

On ‎02‎/‎03‎/‎2019 at 22:28, jcm@gwr said:

 

I was told that the Babylonians invented the base twelve by using the 3 knuckles x 4 fingers on each hand.

How they then came up with the idea of multiplying by 5 to get the 60 we use for so many things (seconds,

minutes, degrees and seconds, minutes, hours) I'm not sure, but it's a very versatile number.

Well maybe. But consider the overwhelming problem of early sentience, once forced out of the garden of perpetual summer with some food always available, into climates with distinct seasons. There's about 360 days and nights, cool to hot to cool. Also and inconveniently, roughly 13 cycles of the moon appearing and disappearing over the same period, useless prime number that it is. (That's where the written record begins to kick in, with priests arguing endlessly over whether counting days or moons get precedence in calendrical primacy. We are not quite clear of that yet, although the priests are just about reconciling to a fixed date for Easter = time to plant the seeds, instead of the long term fudge to accommodate both systems of the next Sunday after the first full moon following the vernal equinox.)

 

The useful factors of 360,  twelve knuckle joints on the one hand, by five digits on the other hand for totalling sixty, is a suggested route to the Babylonian system, which persists to this day. Lots more steps required before we can get around to imagining locomotives.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[The Johnster]

We know that early priests, or people performing that role in society at any rate, were concerned with marking solstices and equinoxes using standing stones, stelae, henges or tomb alignments, which suggests that they considered all this activity as part of ritual concerned with the ancestors or an afterlife, and there seems little doubt that this was also connected to their informing the early farmers of suitable times to sow or reap crops.  In Babylon, there is evidence that the priests were responsible for storage of grain against winter or famine, and it is possible that the loaning of grain to those who needed on condition that they paid back in grain when they could with a little extra was the genesis of banking and credit.  

 

The early civilisations were able to produce more food than the producers of food needed, and the surplus was used for trade and to pay people to do other jobs, the first and most important of which was probably the cleaning up of the mess so that the new cities could be lived in.  Rubbish collection is the very foundation of civilisation, not law and order or architecture.

[Gibbo675]

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

We know that early priests, or people performing that role in society at any rate, were concerned with marking solstices and equinoxes using standing stones, stelae, henges or tomb alignments, which suggests that they considered all this activity as part of ritual concerned with the ancestors or an afterlife, and there seems little doubt that this was also connected to their informing the early farmers of suitable times to sow or reap crops.  In Babylon, there is evidence that the priests were responsible for storage of grain against winter or famine, and it is possible that the loaning of grain to those who needed on condition that they paid back in grain when they could with a little extra was the genesis of banking and credit.  

 

The early civilisations were able to produce more food than the producers of food needed, and the surplus was used for trade and to pay people to do other jobs, the first and most important of which was probably the cleaning up of the mess so that the new cities could be lived in.  Rubbish collection is the very foundation of civilisation, not law and order or architecture.

Hi Johnster,

 

When dealing in scientific matters it is best to employ scientific method, as does the chap in the following video.

 

I would shake hands upon his facts, all of which are mathematically proven.

 

 

"Man is the measure of all things."

Protagoras

 

 

In an attempt to educate while remaining some what on topic here is another of my creations, a GWR one to keep Mr Johnster happy !

 

 

Gibbo.

 

 

[92220]

On 15/02/2019 at 17:45, Flying Pig said:

 

That looks very like Powell's diagram (except it should have Ivatt not Riddles details and styling).  If you feel like counting pixels, the coupled wheel spacing should be 6' 1" between each set. Your front truck is a bit shorter - it's 9' between front coupled axle and pony axle in the diagram.

 

BTW the same book (Living with London Midland Locomotives)  also proposes a light 2-8-2 based on the Clan boiler with 5' 3" drivers and axle loads around 15.5tons for weight limited routes along with numerous other what-if classes.  

 

Under construction still.....

(cylinders are in the background on a Hornby Coronation chassis, not part of this!)

 

Iain

[Clive Mortimore]

1 hour ago, Gibbo675 said:

Hi Johnster,

 

When dealing in scientific matters it is best to employ scientific method, as does the chap in the following video.

 

I would shake hands upon his facts, all of which are mathematically proven.

 

 

"Man is the measure of all things."

Protagoras

 

 

In an attempt to educate while remaining some what on topic here is another of my creations, a GWR one to keep Mr Johnster happy !

 

 

Gibbo.

 

 

Wooooo......I got to just past 6 minutes and realised I wouldn't understand where he was coming from if I watched the next hour.

 

Now imaginary locos I understand and some are really great fun to view.

[The Johnster]

I suspect I will run into similar difficulties when I try to watch it.  Kudos for the stretched City of Truuuuuro, though, thanks for your understanding of my GWR sensitivities, Gibbo!

[rodent279]

On 03/03/2019 at 09:05, Gibbo675 said:

Hi Jeff,

 

May I bolster what you say;

 

To find out about the truth of the matter it is always best to look toward the philosophers in this life, especially when certain philosophers were also great scientists, actually say upon the matter.

 

Rather unfortunately the cult that is scientific materialism has destroyed the bond between philosophy and science that existed before the time of Newton and Liebnitz t the point Tesla was ridiculed for some of what he said.

 

Sexagesimal number systems are in tune with the harmonics of the Earth and as such work properly as number systems, as Jeff points out ten does not dive easily for it is not a harmonic number.

 

Tesla was aware of this and developed a base 12 harmonic mathematical system which if applied to the periodic table of elements (the Earth) shews some very interesting results.

 

As I have previously stated, the metric system is designed for thickies that cannot count.

 

"There is no memory or retentive faculty based upon lasting impression. What we designate as memory is but increased responsiveness to repeated stimuli."

Nikola Tesla.

 

"I hold that the mark of a genuine idea is that is possibility can be proved either by a priori by conceiving its cause or reason, or by posteriori when experience tells us that it is in fact in nature."

Gottfried Liebnitz.

 

"A man may imagine things that are false but he can only understand things that are true, for if the things be false, the apprehension of them is not understanding."

Isaac Newton.

 

"It is not for me to prove what I know to be true but for you to shew what I have said to be false."

Gibbo.

I use the metric system. I was brought up using it, though I am reasonably conversant with Imperial.

I object to bring called a "thickie".

Nice.

Thanks.

 

Edit:- and I'm perfectly capable of counting, thank you very much.

Edited March 6, 2019 by rodent279

[scots region]

How would an LNER P1 fair on South Wales coal traffic? 

[The Johnster]

On the long distance main line hauls, very well I imagine; performance should have been better on paper to the 28xx which were in their element with them.  But for work in the valleys, I suspect the fixed wheelbase would have been a bit long; the 42xx/5205, which had generous sideplay and knuckle joints in the coupling rods to assist on the sharp curvature gave trouble with tank leakage as a result of the frames flexing, especially on the Western Valley line to Ebbw Vale.

 

The Severn Tunnel Jc to Acton coal trains were 100 wagons long with a 28xx, the GW's equivalent to the New England-Ferme Park run; the P1's smoother starting with it's 3 cylinders would have been very much appreciated, as would the booster.  

 

There is a limit to the amount of power that can be economically used on slow unfitted coal trains, though, and the P1s were close to it.  The majority of British main lines are designed to be used by train of 60 traditional wagons, plus loco and brake van, and the lengths of loops, lay by sidings, and distance between signals is set to this standard.  Longer trains needed special pathing and signalling arrangements even on routes suitable for them, and had to be allowed extra running time to clear junctions even when they ran at the same speed as the normal traffic.  But the GN, Midland, LNWR, and GW all featured very long coal trains to serve London, resulting in exotica such as this and the the LMS Beyer-Garratts.

[AlfaZagato]

There was a reason to the GWR rhyme without trailing trucks.    My understanding is that, with the second-bulkiest part of the locomotive, the firebox, weighing squarely on the drivers, a Consolidation or a Ten-wheeler starts more surely than the equivalent Mikado or Pacific, respectively.    I've read of appalling starts by 'foreign' Pacifics during the exchange trials out of Paddington.   

[RLBH]

5 hours ago, The Johnster said:

But the GN, Midland, LNWR, and GW all featured very long coal trains to serve London, resulting in exotica such as this and the the LMS Beyer-Garratts.

I'd even venture to suggest that a 2-8-2 would have been better suited to the Toton-Brent duty than the Garratts were. Fowler was on the right lines with his Pacific and Mikado, notwithstanding the dubious benefits of compounding and possible axlebox and frame difficulties.

4 hours ago, AlfaZagato said:

There was a reason to the GWR rhyme without trailing trucks.    My understanding is that, with the second-bulkiest part of the locomotive, the firebox, weighing squarely on the drivers, a Consolidation or a Ten-wheeler starts more surely than the equivalent Mikado or Pacific, respectively.    I've read of appalling starts by 'foreign' Pacifics during the exchange trials out of Paddington.    

Indeed so, though it does limit firebox size. The USATC S160 proved you could get a wide firebox without a trailing axle in the British loading gauge, provided the drivers weren't too big. But with a narrow firebox, you needed very high quality coal to get enough power for a big locomotive. The GWR had it, the other railways didn't - and I believe the GWR was beginning to have issues by the end of WW2.

[The Johnster]

The 28xx ability to start a heavy train without slipping was legendary.  

 

My childhood Saturday mornings were spent watching trains (spotting came later, in my teens) at Cardiff General, where even at a very early age I was aware that my favourites, the Canton Britannias, made a huge meal of starting up trains over the slight rise from platforms 1 and 2 over the Canal Wharf bridge.  It would take several minutes for the train to clear the platform and get away down the bank.  A Castle or County on a similar train would simply pull it away from the platform, accelerating smoothly without slipping.  Pacifics are all very well when they are on the move, but getting them moving can be a bit of an issue.

 

Loco coal quality was essential to the 'Churchward Method' with steam locos, and it did decline after WW2, initially because the best coal was earmarked for export to ease the Balance of Payments problem and pay the Yanks back for lease-lend, and then because geological difficulties at the pits increased as the more easily and cheaper won coal was exhausted.  That said, the WR was in a better position than the other regions as even lower grade Welsh coal is better for steam locos than lower grade Yorkshire, Lancashire, or Midlands coal.  But it was paid for in extra work at the coaling stages in the depots; no coaling towers here!

 

I have not ever heard it said that the 'better' South Wales coal made much difference to the performance of the Riddles Standards or other non-Churchward locos such as WD or Stanier 8Fs used on the WR; these locos could do their best on anything (to a point, anyway), one of the strengths of their firebox design, and were less 'coal sensitive' than GW types, but didn't particularly benefit from Welsh coal so far as I'm aware.  The firemen, drivers by the time I worked on the railway in the 70s, seemed to regard them as 'strong engines' but rough riding and coal hungry compared to their GW equivalents.  It is difficult to state objectively how much of this was company loyalty and small c conservatism, but all preferred Swindon designs to work on.

 

This may be illustrated by comparing Castles and Britannias on South Wales expresses, where full output was required from the bottom of the Severn Tunnel uphill to Badminton and time lost here meant there was not much respite on the easier stretches afterwards.  Both could do the same class 7 work, up to 14 coaches (you can see why Canton wanted Kings) but a Castle's tender contained 4 and half tons of coal (as did a King's, enough to take a train to London from Plymouth non stop), and the Brit a ton more for use on the WR.  That's quite literally a ton of extra work for the fireman, and a bigger firebox to throw it into.  Similar comparison could be made between Halls and 5MT, or Manors and 4MT 4-6-0s.  The 9F was in a different league, and everybody seemed to like it once they'd worked out how to fire the monster!

[RLBH]

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:



I have not ever heard it said that the 'better' South Wales coal made much difference to the performance of the Riddles Standards or other non-Churchward locos such as WD or Stanier 8Fs used on the WR; these locos could do their best on anything (to a point, anyway), one of the strengths of their firebox design, and were less 'coal sensitive' than GW types, but didn't particularly benefit from Welsh coal so far as I'm aware.

This does seem to make sense - the boiler limiting power rather than the size of the firebox. Keeping the grate covered then means that you've got to burn a certain amount of fuel, regardless of how much heat the boiler can use. So high-quality coal just leads to more energy going up the chimney rather than more power at the rails.

 

I'm led to believe that the semi-mythical Cathedral class may have been a Pacific, rather than a 4-8-0, in recognition of the declining quality of best Welsh coal.

[scots region]

I suppose given the shear amount of 2-8-0s the WR had to play with, who needs a few more? My idea was for the P1s to be a success, have a larger class count (say 20-40 units) survive into BR day and then for a few life expired examples to make their way to south Wales and ekk out a few more years whilst rubbing shoulders with 52XXs and 28XXs, and hopefully in this timeline one would end up in the care of Dai Woodham. It would certainly attract attention at an exhibition. Incidentally does anyone know of a good source on the Vale of Neath lines?

[Gibbo675]

18 hours ago, rodent279 said:

I use the metric system. I was brought up using it, though I am reasonably conversant with Imperial.

I object to bring called a "thickie".

Nice.

Thanks.

 

Edit:- and I'm perfectly capable of counting, thank you very much.

Dear Rodent,

 

I am extremely sorry that you have deliberately chosen to become part of the growing faction of society that actually wishes to be offended by voluntarily placing themselves into a category that I did not in any way label you with.

 

This is especially tragic for you have informed us all that you are fully conversant with both the imperial and the metric systems of linear measurement as you have you have actually indicated in the above post.

 

Without prejudice, and may I suggest that the following is only for you should you choose it to be, I feel that anyone that deliberately searches out offence really ought to reconsider their own self esteem.

 

May I also add as a general point, should I have actually wished to offend anyone directly and in person, which should any one wish to review the context of what I have written will plainly see I have not done so, we will all know for sure my intention, and that I would expect to be immediately and permanently banned fro RMWeb so fast that it is not even funny.

 

Gibbo.

[Compound2632]

9 hours ago, RLBH said:

I'd even venture to suggest that a 2-8-2 would have been better suited to the Toton-Brent duty than the Garratts were. 

 

It would likely have been too heavy. The Garratts were, I think, no heavier than a pair of 3Fs or 4Fs in terms of tons per foot run, which is what mattered to the civil engineer. (At the gentle pace of the Toton-Brent mineral trains, dynamic effects would not have been very significant.) I suspect there were sound operational reasons why the early LMS compound 4-6-2 and 2-8-2 proposals were not proceeded with.

[The Johnster]

3 hours ago, scots region said:

I suppose given the shear amount of 2-8-0s the WR had to play with, who needs a few more? My idea was for the P1s to be a success, have a larger class count (say 20-40 units) survive into BR day and then for a few life expired examples to make their way to south Wales and ekk out a few more years whilst rubbing shoulders with 52XXs and 28XXs, and hopefully in this timeline one would end up in the care of Dai Woodham. It would certainly attract attention at an exhibition. Incidentally does anyone know of a good source on the Vale of Neath lines?

It is pretty well known that, having had to be ‘persuaded’ with a big stick to accept Brits instead of more Castles, the WR resisted the 9Fs and wanted more 2884s, repeating the game with Class 4MT 4-6-0s when more Manors would have been preferred, an Class 3MT prairies instead of 5101s. 

 

 

[Gibbo675]

14 hours ago, AlfaZagato said:

There was a reason to the GWR rhyme without trailing trucks.    My understanding is that, with the second-bulkiest part of the locomotive, the firebox, weighing squarely on the drivers, a Consolidation or a Ten-wheeler starts more surely than the equivalent Mikado or Pacific, respectively.    I've read of appalling starts by 'foreign' Pacifics during the exchange trials out of Paddington.   

 

3 hours ago, RLBH said:

This does seem to make sense - the boiler limiting power rather than the size of the firebox. Keeping the grate covered then means that you've got to burn a certain amount of fuel, regardless of how much heat the boiler can use. So high-quality coal just leads to more energy going up the chimney rather than more power at the rails.

 

I'm led to believe that the semi-mythical Cathedral class may have been a Pacific, rather than a 4-8-0, in recognition of the declining quality of best Welsh coal.

Hi Chaps,

 

In reply to Alpha;

 

Having driven various GWR locomotives I can say that they are very sure footed upon starting, I would attribute this to the fact that GWR locomotives have relatively small regulator valves compared with post Chapelon designed locomotive such as the larger pacific types especially of the LNER and the Bullieds, and also that GWR locomotives have much smaller steam circuits and should a driver sense a slip developing he may shut the rgulator before it starts and the slip will not take place. With post Chapelon types of pacifics, the driver may feel the slip developing and shut the regulator, but due to the considerably larger amount of steam within the steam circuit to locomotive may still slip even with the regulator shut, continuing to do so until all of the steam is used up.

 

In reply to RLBH;

 

The issue with GWR locomotives and the use of best Welsh coal is that the boilers were designed with that type of fuel and in mind and were proportioned and draughted accordingly. The coal that GWR locomotives were designed to burn is a semi anthracitic type of coal that is high in fixed carbons and low in free carbons, this requires a sharper blast as the chimney and a greater use of primary air over secondary air to get the coal to burn efficiently. This is why GWR locomotive run best with a relatively thick fire with the fire hole doors either only slightly open or shut. By comparison an LMS, LNER or BR Stds were designed to burn bituminous grades of coal that contained a lot of free carbons and therefore generally run a thinner fire having boilers that have fire hole doors arranged to admit more secondary air and are also draughted with less of a sharp blast at the chimney for any given cut off.

 

Any questions just ask,

 

Gibbo.

[Northmoor]

4 hours ago, scots region said:

I suppose given the shear amount of 2-8-0s the WR had to play with, who needs a few more? My idea was for the P1s to be a success, have a larger class count (say 20-40 units) survive into BR day and then for a few life expired examples to make their way to south Wales and ekk out a few more years whilst rubbing shoulders with 52XXs and 28XXs, and hopefully in this timeline one would end up in the care of Dai Woodham. It would certainly attract attention at an exhibition. Incidentally does anyone know of a good source on the Vale of Neath lines?

Quite a few years ago, there was a P1 conversion shown in the RM (possibly by one of the operators of "Deepcar"?) using, I think, a modified Tri-ang Princess chassis, Hornby 8F rods and valve gear, modified Hornby A3 boiler and a tender from I can't remember what.  I think I might have almost everything to do the same conversion myself, but it's well down the round-tuit list.