Imaginary Locomotives

[RLBH]

35 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

I understand this is the case; FS has never claimed to have abolished steam and steam locos have been kept in ‘service’.  The Union Pacific does something similar; 844 has never been withdrawn from service.

Union Pacific also occasionally chuck out one of their steam locomotives in revenue service to avoid a light locomotive positioning move. On one occasion 3985 hauled a 143-car intermodal train, apparently in part because the client who booked most of the train's capacity was known to be a steam enthusiast.

[rodent279]

10 minutes ago, Budgie said:

What on earth is this thing?

Spanish Crosti-boilered loco, 2-8-0 by the look of it.

[Gibbo675]

1 hour ago, rockershovel said:

 

Not even close, if this Iberian horror is any guide..

 

Hi Rockershovel,

 

This contraption needs its very own "Ugly Locomotives" thread.

 

Gibbo.

[brack]

1 hour ago, rockershovel said:

 

Not even close, if this Iberian horror is any guide..

 

Please tell me thats imaginary...

It's nearly as bad as

 

Sometimes I suspect the ideas people come up with on this thread are much more plausible than some of the bizarre things that actually got built.

[PhilJ W]

8 minutes ago, brack said:

Please tell me thats imaginary...

It's nearly as bad as

 

Sometimes I suspect the ideas people come up with on this thread are much more plausible than some of the bizarre things that actually got built.

Its real sure enough, it was built for the steeply graded Pikes Peak Railway.

 

[brack]

6 minutes ago, PhilJ W said:

Its real sure enough, it was built for the steeply graded Pikes Peak Railway.

 

Mt washington cog railway no.5 I'd thought. Still looks very primitive and weird, particularly when compared to the swiss built rack locos we're used to.

[rodent279]

27 minutes ago, Gibbo675 said:

Hi Rockershovel,

 

This contraption needs its very own "Ugly Locomotives" thread.

 

Gibbo.

Real enough, seems to have been a one-off though. Chimney in the centre of the boiler, if this link is to be believed.

http://www.douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/LOCOLOCO/francocrosti/francocrosti.htm#spain

[Suzie]

18 hours ago, rodent279 said:

60kV? 6kV surely?

60KV DC should be possible now given that 50KV AC has been used in a few places around the world. The lower currents should preclude a lot of the interference problems normally associated with DC, and the higher voltage without transformers should make it really cheap to install.

[DavidB-AU]

Wouldn't affect the cosmetic appearance much but I wonder how some of these remarkably sensible designs would perform with double Kylchap or Lempor ejectors.

 

Cheers

David

[Zomboid]

2 hours ago, Suzie said:

60KV DC should be possible now given that 50KV AC has been used in a few places around the world. The lower currents should preclude a lot of the interference problems normally associated with DC, and the higher voltage without transformers should make it really cheap to install.

Every bridge would need rebuilding for that kind of voltage. And I'm not sure if 60kV DC switchgear even exists; HVDC links such as the one to France are switched on the AC side of the transformer/ rectifier/ inverter kit. Even if it does there's almost no chance you'd fit it on a train.

[PenrithBeacon]

14 hours ago, rockershovel said:

 

Not even close, if this Iberian horror is any guide..

 

It's not as bad as those horrendous USA tanks the Southern bought

[rodent279]

1 hour ago, Zomboid said:

Every bridge would need rebuilding for that kind of voltage. And I'm not sure if 60kV DC switchgear even exists; HVDC links such as the one to France are switched on the AC side of the transformer/ rectifier/ inverter kit. Even if it does there's almost no chance you'd fit it on a train.

Good point!

[rodent279]

Speaking of Franco-Crosti boilers, which I know aren't Imaginery, does anyone know if they had any application outside of rail traction?

[RLBH]

6 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

Speaking of Franco-Crosti boilers, which I know aren't Imaginery, does anyone know if they had any application outside of rail traction?

Feedwater heaters using exhaust gases are used on pretty much every non-rail steam plant, but not the exhaust steam element of a Franco-Crosti boiler. That's because of the different constraints on landbased and marine boilers - there's plenty of space for extra tubes to heat the feedwater, but the plants invariably run condensing so there's no meaningful exhaust steam.

[Niels]

3 hours ago, rodent279 said:

Speaking of Franco-Crosti boilers, which I know aren't Imaginery, does anyone know if they had any application outside of rail traction?

Franco Crosti tried to cool smoke lower than dew-point of sulphuric acid.Unless You use noble metal for that end of boiler,it was a bad idea.

Edited July 15, 2019 by Niels

[brack]

5 hours ago, PenrithBeacon said:

It's not as bad as those horrendous USA tanks the Southern bought

Those were a pretty big step up in aesthetics compared to those rather awful bulleid 060s.

[westerner]

a s I said nothing wrong with an ugly loco.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

On ‎15‎/‎07‎/‎2019 at 09:35, DavidB-AU said:

Wouldn't affect the cosmetic appearance much but I wonder how some of these remarkably sensible designs would perform with double Kylchap or Lempor ejectors...

In principle an exhaust system designed for minimal back pressure in the cylinder at exhaust, and maximum entrainment and ejection of the flue gasses should be of advantage. The caveat being that to obtain this advantage, other key aspects of the design: grate draughting, grate area, flue cross sections, superheater ratio, need to be correct for optimum results.

 

A good example was the LMS trial of a Kylchap ejector on their Jubilee 4-6-0. It did the job at the front end alright. But the draughting, flue proportions and superheater ratio between them, all designed for free steaming with the  normal single blast pipe, gave the crew an impractical loco. When even modest power outputs were required the efficient entrainment lifted the fire. There was plentiful power if the fireman could move coal into the firebox quickly enough, until the smokebox choked with ash and part burned coal. And even had these design aspects been optimised for the Kylchap ejector:

 

Dick Hardy of fond memory, would tell the tale of being on a Kylchap A4 footplate while an LMR driver attempted to move it through a stage on LMR rails. He drove as he would on a Black Five, turn and a half up on the reverser, and power adjustment on a part open regulator, and was going nowhere while repeatedly sending the fire up the exhaust, while his mate shovelled navvy style, and grousing about what a useless machine it was. Eventually Mr Hardy intervened to demonstrate how a well designed locomotive should be operated, all the regulator, minimum cut off for the power required, thin white hot fire,  the superheater good and hot, and away she flew. The crew have to know how too.

[AlfaZagato]

2 hours ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

The crew have to know how too.

That brings back to the purported difference between French drivers and British.   A doctorate for the Chapelon designs, and enlistment for Collett.

[scots region]

On 14/07/2019 at 21:23, rockershovel said:

 

Not even close, if this Iberian horror is any guide..

 

 

 

There is something almost Lovecraftian about it. 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

21 minutes ago, AlfaZagato said:

That brings back to the purported difference between French drivers and British.   A doctorate for the Chapelon designs, and enlistment for Collett.

The French academic training applied to those running express steam. I don't believe it was universal, but have not looked into it.

 

Didn't prevent SNCF having the most explosive boiler failure I am aware of in first world passenger service: crown plate of firebox left uncovered and failed, entire boiler out of the frame and flew a hundred yards and more from its point of departure under the thrust developed by the boiling water discharge. Whatever the qualifications of the crew, their fate may be imagined.

[Corbs]

Sounds similar to this event...

 

Quote

Probably the last serious boiler incident was the explosion of the boiler of Deutsche Reichsbahn (East Germany) pacific 01 1516-2 at Bitterfeld on 27 November 1977 with express D567 Berlin - Leipzig, in which both footplate personnel were killed - their bodies ended-up on the station roof, and 7 bystanders were killed. The boiler turned through 180° about the cylinder block, and welded itself to the rails 40m in front of the remains of the loco. The contents of the firebox set fire to a passenger train on a neighbouring track, destroying two coaches. The crew had not taken the planned water-stop at Lutherstadt-Wittenberg, and had planned to take water at Bitterfeld. The loco had been rebuilt from 01 117 in 1963, at Meiningen.

The whole incident is somewhat puzzling, as this was the return leg of D562 Leipzig - Berlin, on which the crew had already failed 03 2121-6, the "Planlok" (Bw Leipzig Hbf - West), on the outward journey, by allowing it to run dry, and blowing the firebox fusible plugs after leaving Lutherstadt-Wittenberg. This train continued to Berlin behind a 118 diesel. For the return working, the crew were given the standby loco 01 1516-2 (Bw Berlin-Ostbahnhof), on which they managed to do the same, but with serious consequences on the approach to Bitterfeld, when the firebox top became exposed due to the braking of the train. The fusible plugs did not melt on this occasion, as they were subsequently found to be ineffective due to excessive build-up of scale. There was hardly any coal in the tender, and the tender tank was empty!

As a result of these incidents, all of the locos in Bw Leipzig-Hbf-West were thoroughly inspected, and all required a visit to Meiningen. 03 2137 was found to have 371 serious faults, and was immediately sent to Meiningen.

Notably, the line was reopened within a few hours - imagine that today!

Photos from East German News Agency (now defunct!)

 

 

(via https://www.national-preservation.com/threads/boilers-accidents.777833/ )

[Gibbo675]

1 hour ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

The French academic training applied to those running express steam. I don't believe it was universal, but have not looked into it.

 

Didn't prevent SNCF having the most explosive boiler failure I am aware of in first world passenger service: crown plate of firebox left uncovered and failed, entire boiler out of the frame and flew a hundred yards and more from its point of departure under the thrust developed by the boiling water discharge. Whatever the qualifications of the crew, their fate may be imagined.

Hi 34B&D,

 

Is that the one where the boiler was ripped from the frames, proceeding to then go end over end five or six times covering nearly 500 yards before coming to rest ?

 

Gibbo.

[rodent279]

1 hour ago, AlfaZagato said:

That brings back to the purported difference between French drivers and British.   A doctorate for the Chapelon designs, and enlistment for Collett.

Which makes me wonder whether part of the reason for the less than expected improvement in economy of the Crosti 9F's was perhaps because BR just stuck into service at Wellingborough, and expected crews to just pitch in, with little or no training?

Of course, they tried to improve an already very good design, so you wouldn't expect earth shattering results anyway, but maybe there's something in that? Not questioning the competence of the crews, but whether they were properly prepared and trained to get the best out of them.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

25 minutes ago, Gibbo675 said:

Is that the one where the boiler was ripped from the frames, proceeding to then go end over end five or six times covering nearly 500 yards before coming to rest ?

That's the one I was thinking of, but am not alongside my reference sources at present and didn't want to exaggerate how far the boiler went following detachment. (It doesn't bear imagining what might have happened at Harrow in 1952 had one of the larger boilers failed catastrophically there due to unfortunate impact damage.)

 

30 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

Which makes me wonder whether part of the reason for the less than expected improvement in economy of the Crosti 9F's was perhaps because BR just stuck into service at Wellingborough, and expected crews to just pitch in, with little or no training?

Of course, they tried to improve an already very good design, so you wouldn't expect earth shattering results anyway, but maybe there's something in that? Not questioning the competence of the crews, but whether they were properly prepared and trained to get the best out of them.

You may completely exonerate the crews. A digest of the Franco Crosti 9F evolution.

E.S. Cox gets all excited about the economy achieved by application of F-C on Kriegslok DB class 52 design.

The very capable Ron Jarvis,  already deeply knowledgeable in 9F having had charge of the preparation  of the detail designs, is assigned to produce a design for production of an F-C preheater batch of 9Fs.

Finds it cannot be done as the original twin preheater proposal , or as the revised single preheater design, unless a completely new smaller boiler design is developed. (To be frank, that should have killed the project then and there. Prospective savings never likely to pay off, as it wouldn't be economically possible to convert all the 9Fs constructed while the F-C version was being tested and proven, until boiler replacements fell due.)

Completely new smaller boiler designed and constructed. Major loss of internal volume and superheater surface.

Controlled testing at Rugby and on the road reveals just over 8% economy gain. That wouldn't even cover the negotiated design licence fee payment based on a 20% gain against a regular 9F. (The work involved in the new boiler design, and the much increased maintenance due to severe internal corrosion will absorb what economy gain was achieved, over the locomotive's then planned working life.)

In traffic, what is quickly observed is the lack of reserve power output that a 9F provides. Crews getting kippered by smoke entering the cab hardly motivates the footplate crews...