Imaginary Locomotives

[Flying Pig]

7 minutes ago, thx712517 said:

I'm curious as to what a L&YR Class 5 2-4-2 would look like, if it had been mildly Swindonized with a Belpaire taper boiler. Apparently there was a Class 6 that featured a Belpaire boiler and superheater, but I've not been able to find a photograph to see what it would look like. 

 

The Belpaire version appears in Andy's post right at the start of the Bachmann radial tank thread, though that isn't the version actually produced.  Coachmann kitbashed one very nicely from a Bachmann model, but sadly I doubt the relevant posts still exist.

 

I prefer the original roundtop engine for appearance. The Hughes version suffers from the rather clunky late L&Y design aesthetic and I don't think it would have been improved by a taper boiler.  For some reason the Hughes engines were on average withdrawn earlier than the originals.

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Flying Pig said:

For some reason the Hughes engines were on average withdrawn earlier than the originals.

 

... because the duties for which the more powerful engines were required were taken over by the more effective 2-6-4Ts?

[The Johnster]

1 hour ago, Flying Pig said:

 

Run top and tailed they make some sense and we did them on the old Cuts and Shuts thread that prefigured much of what has. been said (often repeatedly ) on this one.

 

 

Otherwise I think EE's Deltic fantasies were best left unbuilt.  The class 55s existed for a specific purpose: to provide Fiennes with the 3000hp single units he needed to run a competitive timetable in the absence of electrification.  Outside that, other power units could do the job more economically (and more quietly), as the Baby Deltics demonstrated quite well.

A panzer division is probably quieter than a Deltic...

[Zomboid]

2 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

 

Run top and tailed they make some sense and we did them on the old Cuts and Shuts thread that prefigured much of what has. been said (often repeatedly ) on this one.

 

 

Otherwise I think EE's Deltic fantasies were best left unbuilt.  The class 55s existed for a specific purpose: to provide Fiennes with the 3000hp single units he needed to run a competitive timetable in the absence of electrification.  Outside that, other power units could do the job more economically (and more quietly), as the Baby Deltics demonstrated quite well.

I'm not sure about the Pullman paint job, but otherwise that's a fine looking locomotive.

A back to back pair would do pretty much the same job as the single units, and in fact there may be space for additional radiators to allow them to be uprated even further. I'm sure nothing could possibly go wrong there...

[Flying Pig]

1 minute ago, Zomboid said:

 A back to back pair would do pretty much the same job as the single units

 

It was largely a joke, but the advantages of a semi-permanently coupled top and tailed unit would be reduction in the total number of units, fewer light engine movements at places like Kings Cross and a slight decrease in platform occupation - pretty much as with the HSTs.  Unfortunately that would come at the expense of splitting the class 55 control system over two units -  non-trivial, particularly when ETH was shoehorned in.  Managing train heating boilers would also be a major pain.  Splitting a class 55 for the hell of it is just making problems.

 

The livery was applied to match the all-Pullman train.  It sits rather better than Deltic blue.

 

 

 

[thx712517]

5 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

 

The Belpaire version appears in Andy's post right at the start of the Bachmann radial tank thread, though that isn't the version actually produced.  Coachmann kitbashed one very nicely from a Bachmann model, but sadly I doubt the relevant posts still exist.

 

I prefer the original roundtop engine for appearance. The Hughes version suffers from the rather clunky late L&Y design aesthetic and I don't think it would have been improved by a taper boiler.  For some reason the Hughes engines were on average withdrawn earlier than the originals.

Thank you for that! It's easier to envision a GWR version with that picture. I remember visiting NRM and at the end of the day had a quiet moment standing next to it. Felt like standing next to a pleasant elderly dog. 

[Ramblin Rich]

3 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

 

It was largely a joke, but the advantages of a semi-permanently coupled top and tailed unit would be reduction in the total number of units, fewer light engine movements at places like Kings Cross and a slight decrease in platform occupation - pretty much as with the HSTs.  Unfortunately that would come at the expense of splitting the class 55 control system over two units -  non-trivial, particularly when ETH was shoehorned in.  Managing train heating boilers would also be a major pain.  Splitting a class 55 for the hell of it is just making problems.

 

The livery was applied to match the all-Pullman train.  It sits rather better than Deltic blue.

 

 

 

A single Deltic 18 cylinder unit in a  4 axle design would have lower axle loading than the Co-Co class 55s so there might be space and weight available for an auxiliary ETH supply, not tied to the main power unit. Less complicated to manage. With dedicated ETH stock, ditch the boiler!

Edited August 8, 2019 by Ramblin Rich

[Flying Pig]

1 hour ago, thx712517 said:

It's easier to envision a GWR version with that picture

 

If you do anything so heathen may the ghost of Uncle Mort mither you to kingdom come.

[Corbs]

I'd like a Co-Co single cabbed prototype Deltic, permanently coupled to an articulated train with DVT at the other end. Shared bogies across all the coaches, with the whole set in the same blue with accents as the loco.

[runs as required]

I'd prefer the blue to be GNER livery with the red band

[thx712517]

5 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

 

If you do anything so heathen may the ghost of Uncle Mort mither you to kingdom come.

Fair enough!

[rodent279]

7 hours ago, runs as required said:

I'd prefer the blue to be GNER livery with the red band

I've always thought GNER livery would suit a Deltic. Any DPS members on here? Go on, you know you want to!

[Satan's Goldfish]

11 hours ago, Corbs said:

I'd like a Co-Co single cabbed prototype Deltic, permanently coupled to an articulated train with DVT at the other end. Shared bogies across all the coaches, with the whole set in the same blue with accents as the loco.

 

Not far off the streamlined sets that used to run with A4s then, but I think they were pairs sharing an articulated bogie rather than the whole length... and the beaver tail would need a driving position... would the updated version be articulated mk1s with a DMU style cab on the DVT?

[62613]

1 hour ago, Satan's Goldfish said:

 

Not far off the streamlined sets that used to run with A4s then, but I think they were pairs sharing an articulated bogie rather than the whole length... and the beaver tail would need a driving position... would the updated version be articulated mk1s with a DMU style cab on the DVT?

If I recall, the original Silver Jubilee set was a pair of articulated twins with an articulated triplet restaurant set in between. The Coronation and West Riding sets were slightly different. Was the Coronation the only set with the observation car?

 

Edited August 9, 2019 by 62613

[runs as required]

I used to ride the Coronation set (minus observation car) in the early 1960s when it was used for the night Hook Continental out of L'pool Street (all maroon, hauled by Brush type 2 diesel?).

It felt so good sitting in a single art deco shell shaped armchair facing my colleague; both of us tucking into steak and kidney pudding gazing out across Essex  ...

 

... only to sick it all out again about 5 hours later in the inevitable stormy night on the North sea.

Those were the days - en route to a collaboration day with NS Utrecht; we felt unashamedly modern then in those last days before Beeching.

dh

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

1 hour ago, 62613 said:

... The Coronation and West Riding sets were slightly different. Was the Coronation the only set with the observation car?

The Coronation service was the only one regularly operated with the observation cars, and then only while there were the hours of daylight to make it worthwhile. (Don't know the date range.)

[Joseph_Pestell]

27 minutes ago, runs as required said:

I used to ride the Coronation set (minus observation car) in the early 1960s when it was used for the night Hook Continental out of L'pool Street (all maroon, hauled by Brush type 2 diesel?).

It felt so good sitting in a single art deco shell shaped armchair facing my colleague; both of us tucking into steak and kidney pudding gazing out across Essex  ...

 

... only to sick it all out again about 5 hours later in the inevitable stormy night on the North sea.

Those were the days - en route to a collaboration day with NS Utrecht; we felt unashamedly modern then in those last days before Beeching.

dh

 

Can you remember until which year? We went on a family holiday to Germany in 1964 using the night Hook Continental but I don't recall anything special about the rolling stock other than it was Gresley. Would extra coaches have been added to the formation?

[runs as required]

Last time I did that Utrecht trip would be Aug/Sept 1962

i don't recall it being a very long train (hauled in fairly leisurely fashion by, I think, a Brush type 2)  and would not panelled Gresleys (as compared to Thompson stock) have contrasted with the smooth Coronation set?

dh

[62613]

7 hours ago, runs as required said:

Last time I did that Utrecht trip would be Aug/Sept 1962

i don't recall it being a very long train (hauled in fairly leisurely fashion by, I think, a Brush type 2)  and would not panelled Gresleys (as compared to Thompson stock) have contrasted with the smooth Coronation set?

dh

 

According to Michael Harris (Gresley's Coaches) most Gresley coaching stock was withdrawn in 1962-3.

[Flying Pig]

12 hours ago, Satan's Goldfish said:

 

Not far off the streamlined sets that used to run with A4s then, but I think they were pairs sharing an articulated bogie rather than the whole length... and the beaver tail would need a driving position... would the updated version be articulated mk1s with a DMU style cab on the DVT?

 

You'd want something more up to date than a Mk1, surely? Perhaps something like the Swiss TEE sets, with some of the good points of the Blue Pullman vehicles. Better riding than the BP would allow safe delivery of brown windsor soup at unheard of speeds.

[Satan's Goldfish]

On 09/08/2019 at 22:24, Flying Pig said:

 

You'd want something more up to date than a Mk1, surely? Perhaps something like the Swiss TEE sets, with some of the good points of the Blue Pullman vehicles. Better riding than the BP would allow safe delivery of brown windsor soup at unheard of speeds.

 

Kinda related, this made me think of the diesel Swiss TEE sets. I do like the way the 'locomotive' profile matches the coaches, but it rides on 3 axle bogies instead of 2 axle bogies like the unpowered vehicles. So I got creative chopping up a Deltic. 

 

 

Wisdom of hindsight I probably should have used pressure ventilated mk2 coaches for the locomotive and DBO, and a mix of mk1 and 2 as intermediate coaches... let's just pretend this is the re-vamped version when air con was introduced!

[DavidB-AU]

Interesting you should mention TEE trains. I don't have a doctored drawing (yet) but I had considered something loosely based on the German VT 11.5 TEE, although without the elevated cab. These had 800 kW (1080 hp) Maybach engines and hydraulic transmission. It wouldn't be impossible to think of something like a pair of single ended D800 Warships with maybe 9 coaches in between. 

 

Cheers
David

[Flying Pig]

1 hour ago, Satan's Goldfish said:

So I got creative chopping up a Deltic.

 

Sorry, several points of disagreement:

 

- the train would be into service circa 1960, which is why I suggested BP stock and the Swiss RAe TEE ii as a basis; Mk2 stock doesn't have the 60s swish of either of those designs and the aircon subtypes are too late as you say; and absolutely not a mishmash of ordinary service stock - this is a premium design;

 

- I don't think placing a guards compartment within the power unit HST style is going to work; you save a little space by losing the cab, but you still need to accommodate some of the equipment from the nose end and the saved space is better used hooking up a proper auxilliary generator to the rear engine and running ETH from the kick-off; you'll need grilles for the traction motor blowers and probably an access door somewhere near the end too;

 

- the driving trailer doesn't need to echo the style of the loco: this isn't a unit, it's a push-pull set (check out the 68+Mk5 sets which look really good to me, arguments about buffers aside); personally I like the simplicity of the TEE design and it's probably closer to the Deltic aesthetic than the Blue Pullman cab which is another possible styling cue; unfortunately, the UK loading gauge doesn't permit the cab to sit above an observation carriage (also see below);

 

- as a non-powered vehicle there's no point putting the driving trailer on 6-wheel bogies; as to whether it should have passenger accommodation I'm not sure - this is a 100mph plus train so probably it would probably have to be a van as were the Mk3 DVTs even 30 years later;

 

- standard blue grey makes it look ordinary, but would probably have been appliedfrom the mid 60s anyway and even worse with full yellow ends; for the livery as built, I'd favour ice-cream-cart blue as Corbs originally suggested, with the nose end stripes continued along the train in the fashion of the LMS Coronation Scot sets.

 

 

Edited August 12, 2019 by Flying Pig
spelnig

[Bloodnok]

3 minutes ago, Flying Pig said:

 - as to whether it should have passenger accomodation I'm not sure - this is a 100mph plus train so probably it would probably have to be a van as were the Mk3 DVTs even 30 years later; 

IIRC this rule came about as a result of the Polmont accident in 1984 where a DBSO ran over a cow. Prior to that there doesn't seem to have been an issue with passengers in a leading trailer at speed -- look at the APT-P, for example.

[Satan's Goldfish]

19 minutes ago, Flying Pig said:

 

Sorry, several points of disagreement:

 

- the train would be into service circa 1960, which is why I suggested BP stock and the Swiss RAe TEE ii as a basis; Mk2 stock doesn't have the 60s swish of either of those designs and the aircon subtypes are too late as you say; and absolutely not a mishmash of ordinary service stock - this is a premium design;

 

- I don't think placing a guards compartment within the power unit HST style is going to work; you save a little space by losing the cab, but you still need to accommodate some of the equipment from the nose end and the saved space is better used hooking up a proper auxilliary generator to the rear engine and running ETH from the kick-off; you'll need grilles for the traction motor blowers and probably an access door somewhere near the end too;

 

- the driving trailer doesn't need to echo the style of the loco: this isn't a unit, it's a push-pull set (check out the 68+Mk5 sets which look really good to me, arguments about buffers aside); personally I like the simplicity of the TEE design and it's probably closer to the Deltic aesthetic than the Blue Pullman cab which is another possible styling cue; unfortunately, the UK loading gauge doesn't permit the cab to sit above an observation carriage (also see below);

 

- as a non-powered vehicle there's no point putting the driving trailer on 6-wheel bogies; as to whether it should have passenger accommodation I'm not sure - this is a 100mph plus train so probably it would probably have to be a van as were the Mk3 DVTs even 30 years later;

 

- standard blue grey makes it look ordinary, but would probably have been appliedfrom the mid 60s anyway and even worse with full yellow ends; for the livery as built, I'd favour ice-cream-cart blue as Corbs originally suggested, with the nose end stripes continued along the train in the fashion of the LMS Coronation Scot sets.

 

 

 

A lot of very valid points.. but I ended up playing with this as a generic train rather than a top link Pullman esq style service (I have the habit of thinking 'what can I potentially create from spare items I physically have)... which kinda covers why point 1 ended up being mk2s rather than anything fancy. Mk1 would probably just be a buffet on longer services...

 

Noted, will remove 'passenger' door from the locomotive and add a BSO or DBSO to the formation.

 

The Deltic cab on the driving trailer comes back to 'using items I physically have'... got to put an old Lima Deltic to some good somewhere! To my eye at a brief glance, the trailer cab on the SBB RAm TEE units looked similar to the locomotive end (these are different to the DB VT11.5 with the raised cabs and big noses)

 

None of the trailers are on 6 wheeled bogies, just the locomotive. As already noted, passengers in lead vehicle previously was ok, although I am now more tempted to make it a DBSO rather than just a DSO just from aesthetics.

 

Agree, blue/grey sucks! My other potential starting points were a maroon mk1 (no!) or intercity swallow mk2 (very tempting, but much more complicated, was hard enough removing the 2 tone green from the Deltic to plain blue). It would look much fancier with the prototype Deltic whiskers and central headlight, shade of blue, matching Pullman's... horrifically, if I were to start again I'd probably go reggie rail for cross country services