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Imaginary Locomotives


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6 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

All this natter about the Channel tunnel, didn't they use a more modern version of Brunel senior's tunneling shield to dig it. Of course it was first used to dig the Wapping tunnel. 

 

" Wapping Tunnel, who was the stupid geezer who let all them barbarian Millwall fans bl33ding come across to the right side of the river? I'll give you Brunel".....thank you Mr Garnet.

 

Marc Brunel was French and possibly misunderstood when he was asked to dig a whopping tunnel under the Thames.

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Re The Johnster et al, above, the Harappan / Indus Valley culture is reckoned to be approximately contemporary with early Pharaonic Egypt, and were characterised by mud brick urban complexes - no pyramids or other large masonry structures. The Mesoamerican pyramids, of various cultures and locations, are much newer. 

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15 hours ago, melmerby said:

The Egyptian Pyramids from Khufu on are very precisely built.

With Khufu's pyramid, the foundation was levelled using water levelling and the length of the sides are within a few cm of each other, the angles of the 4 slopes are also pretty consistent, showing the designers had a good appreciation of geometry.

 

I read Erick von Daniken's "Chariots of the Gods". Very entertaining but utter drivel.

Most of his claims were easily disproved.

 

The Giza pyramids were built to a very high standard of accuracy, even by modern standards. Whether they were designed on papyrus is a rather different question. They use very simple shapes and it is quite possible to construct structures of this sort, simply by using templates, stringlines, plumbs, water levels, lines of sight and ad-hoc information; the Romans did this, much of the time, as did the builders of the great cathedrals and castles of medieval Britain and Europe. 

 

The Ancient Egyptians already knew about working in stone, and were well aware of how to form accurate and consistently shaped blocks. Once you can do THAT, building a pyramid is just a matter of levelling the site, and accurately positioning the corners, and this is a relatively simple task on an open site. 

 

This isn’t to imply that any of this is EASY, just that the concepts aren’t hard and depend largely upon accumulated expertise, the ability to mobilise resources and the will to act. 

 

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1 hour ago, rockershovel said:

 

The Giza pyramids were built to a very high standard of accuracy, even by modern standards. Whether they were designed on papyrus is a rather different question. They use very simple shapes and it is quite possible to construct structures of this sort, simply by using templates, stringlines, plumbs, water levels, lines of sight and ad-hoc information; the Romans did this, much of the time, as did the builders of the great cathedrals and castles of medieval Britain and Europe. 

 

The Ancient Egyptians already knew about working in stone, and were well aware of how to form accurate and consistently shaped blocks. Once you can do THAT, building a pyramid is just a matter of levelling the site, and accurately positioning the corners, and this is a relatively simple task on an open site. 

 

This isn’t to imply that any of this is EASY, just that the concepts aren’t hard and depend largely upon accumulated expertise, the ability to mobilise resources and the will to act. 

 

Hi Mr Shovel,

 

My brother works for Leica Geophysics and I quizzed him about how accurately an area of 13 aces could be prepared with regard to the straightness of edges, squareness of plan and also level, using the very best of modern kit.

Setting out the corners in place could be done to within 6mm of plan, the sides would likely run out by 10mm plus or minus randomly and the levels could be out by plus or minus 100mm randomly also except in spot areas that would ave to be point surveyed.

He then asked why I wanted to know and so I told him that the Great Pyramid was built to within 11mm in all directions is answer was, "How the fuq did they do that ! Measuring it one thing but building it is something else."

 

Weirdly if a ramp was used to hauls the stones to build the pyramid why is there no trace of the ramp left ? Common sense say it would have been almost as big as the pyramid itself and yet it has simply disappeared without any kind of imprint or shadow upon the ground.

 

And what of the Stones of Ballbeck each around 900tons each, the largest in excess of 1200 tons, are you actually able to explain how they were moved ?

The only information I can find says that they are too large for levers and pulleys which is a little vague.

 

Gibbo.

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Before the ex-Bord Na Mona loco was secured for the Talyllyn's No.7 'Tom Rolt', buying a brand new loco from Hunslet of the 'Eva' class was suggested. I found these pictures of a 'what if' model (I think it is in 16mm) suitably names 'Cader Idris'.

galveira-hunslet-eva-3.jpg.ce42acfa61067c9c95338972af809a1c.jpggalveira-hunslet-eva-2.jpg.d68406adca3f525574f6d00b08561867.jpggalveira-hunslet-eva-1.jpg.75cfb4bcade4866d5362672d78b1e253.jpg

 

For the real No.7, I think it's a great feat and a nice loco but something has ALWAYS bugged me about its looks, and I couldn't put my finger on what until I read John Bate's book and he mentioned being given some spectacle plates by the Ffestiniog Railway to the same pattern as on the Fairlies. 

THAT's what I disliked so much! To me they look so un-Talyllyn-y so I did this to fix them.

Screenshot_2020-03-29_at_11_07_22.png.9feb451a7c63a6c4beaaaa36baab4ff0.png

 

Edited by Corbs
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1 hour ago, rodent279 said:

I would imagine key to all that is the mobilisation of resources. Nothing much has changed in that sense, just methods.

Staying rather off topic, the Egyptians had two seasons, Farming and Building.

Whilst the Nile was in flood "The Inundation" the workforce was usefully employed in the building industry, at other times they worked in the fields.

There was no slave labour and whilst working on the pyramids they had Hospital facilities to attend to the inevital workplace accidents and there was a large kitchen area to keep them well fed.

 

30 minutes ago, Gibbo675 said:

Hi Mr Shovel,

 

Weirdly if a ramp was used to hauls the stones to build the pyramid why is there no trace of the ramp left ? Common sense say it would have been almost as big as the pyramid itself and yet it has simply disappeared without any kind of imprint or shadow upon the ground.

 

Gibbo.

The latest thinking is that the ramp wasn't that big as it spiralled around the pyramid as it rose, getting smaller as it neared the top

 

No aliens were involved:jester:

Edited by melmerby
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49 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Staying rather off topic, ...

 

The latest thinking is that the ramp wasn't that big as it spiralled around the pyramid as it rose, getting smaller as it neared the top

 

No aliens were involved:jester:

There was a theory about ten years ago that the ramp is actually inside the present building with wooden scaffolding on the corners to enable workers to turn the stones. This theory requires a lot of money to prove it and ground penetrating radar, mounted sideways. The Egyptian government declined to fund a budget.

Agree re aliens and astrology is crap. 

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The technology used to build the pyramids could have been forgotten or lost. It may well be re-discovered either by accident or using modern techniques. After all the make up Roman cement was only re-discovered after nearly 2000 years.

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2 hours ago, Gibbo675 said:

Hi Mr Shovel,

 

My brother works for Leica Geophysics and I quizzed him about how accurately an area of 13 aces could be prepared with regard to the straightness of edges, squareness of plan and also level, using the very best of modern kit.

Setting out the corners in place could be done to within 6mm of plan, the sides would likely run out by 10mm plus or minus randomly and the levels could be out by plus or minus 100mm randomly also except in spot areas that would ave to be point surveyed.

He then asked why I wanted to know and so I told him that the Great Pyramid was built to within 11mm in all directions is answer was, "How the fuq did they do that ! Measuring it one thing but building it is something else."

 

Weirdly if a ramp was used to hauls the stones to build the pyramid why is there no trace of the ramp left ? Common sense say it would have been almost as big as the pyramid itself and yet it has simply disappeared without any kind of imprint or shadow upon the ground.

 

And what of the Stones of Ballbeck each around 900tons each, the largest in excess of 1200 tons, are you actually able to explain how they were moved ?

The only information I can find says that they are too large for levers and pulleys which is a little vague.

 

Gibbo.

Hi Folks,

 

Before I start I wish to profusely apologise to the small minded folk that feel the need to insult me by way of ridicule for no other reason than that they are small minded and only know what Wonkypedia states on the first page of a Google search return that they typed in said search engine two minutes previously.

 

It was all done using the Hutchinson effect of frequency generated electro-gravitics and field distortion monkey business. That's my theory that for some reason the Egyptian Governement (and DARPA) wouldn't pay for.

 

So it must be true.

 

Do feel free to insult me.

 

This is nice though:

 

DSCF0550.JPG.5fd979c70fa6039a35484727ef1e1cf4.JPG

 

DSCF0551.JPG.298488ad232e79ade6a3104f1c60561a.JPG

 

Gibbo.

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That is an interesting beast. Looks like a cross between the first Kruger 4-6-0 and City of Truro.

 

Regarding pyramids, I suppose it's a fairly simple structure for an early civilisation, in that as you go higher, there is less material, so less to lift, and less weight for the lower levels to support.

 

The trick would have been in getting the corners square, and getting the degree of inset right, and consistent, on all levels. No mean feat, even today.

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Regarding accuracy, that’s why you don’t let geophysicists set out buildings. The levels are the least accurate part of GPS. 

 

The Romans routinely constructed aqueducts and outfalls over long distances, to gradients between 1:300 and 1:1500. 

 

I (just about) saw techniques like plane table surveying in use, my survey lecturer in the 1970s was a master of them and would demonstrate levelling traverses using water level and optical alidade, (with NO lenses) to accuracies of 5-10mm per km run. I have no difficulty in believing that the master masons and architects who built the Giza Pyramids were at least that good... note that producing a level site, and producing a tabulated grid of levels, are not the same thing....

 

 

 

Regarding the pyramid ramps, there seems to be general agreement that they were built in sequence, over a period of about 60 years, by a permanent workforce of about 10,000 and a further 15-20,000 seasonal labourers   http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/egyptians/pyramid_builders_01.shtml   They stand on bedrock secure enough to support such enormous structures for millennia, and they are (or once were) surrounded by extensive secondary construction. 

 

I’ve heard the suggestion that the ramps might have been within the structure, to a considerable extent and I don’t find this hard to envisage. There’s also the suggestion that the same temporary works materials were carted from one location to the next, sequentially - which would have greatly reduced the total quantities, and dispersed afterwards. Given that it would have been local material, it would eventually have blended into the landscape. 

 

The Romans are recorded as having built their siege ramp at Masada within a matter of 3 months or so. 

 

 

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17 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

That is an interesting beast. Looks like a cross between the first Kruger 4-6-0 and City of Truro.

 

Regarding pyramids, I suppose it's a fairly simple structure for an early civilisation, in that as you go higher, there is less material, so less to lift, and less weight for the lower levels to support.

 

The trick would have been in getting the corners square, and getting the degree of inset right, and consistent, on all levels. No mean feat, even today.

Hi Neil,

 

It is intended as large version of City of Truro and a forerunner of the Saint class but is certainly does look like a large wheel Kruger.

 

Gibbo.

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3 minutes ago, Gibbo675 said:

Hi Neil,

 

It is intended as large version of City of Truro and a forerunner of the Saint class but is certainly does look like a large wheel Kruger.

 

Gibbo.

 

It’s more like a super-Aberdare? Kruger’s were ugly things...

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3 minutes ago, rockershovel said:

 

It’s more like a super-Aberdare? Kruger’s were ugly things...

Now Aberdare's are nice looking engines, and IMO a gap in the rtr market.

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2 hours ago, PhilJ W said:

The technology used to build the pyramids could have been forgotten or lost. It may well be re-discovered either by accident or using modern techniques. After all the make up Roman cement was only re-discovered after nearly 2000 years.

650272345_seatbelt.png.ee3a5e17ff393d3c25eb9d695c1ac339.png

 

Say no more.

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3 hours ago, rodent279 said:

Now Aberdare's are nice looking engines, and IMO a gap in the rtr market.

If you are wanting to increase the outside crank GWR locos that  could be added to RTR, Dean's 2361 wasn't extinct until 1946, the last 1076 0-6-0 Tank, a varied class, also lasted until 1946, as well as some 2-4-0s such as the 3206 "Barnum" class which lasted until 1937.

Plenty of 4-4-0s to choose from

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29 minutes ago, melmerby said:

If you are wanting to increase the outside crank GWR locos that  could be added to RTR, Dean's 2361 wasn't extinct until 1946, the last 1076 0-6-0 Tank, a varied class, also lasted until 1946, as well as some 2-4-0s such as the 3206 "Barnum" class which lasted until 1937.

Plenty of 4-4-0s to choose from

 

I’d never heard of any of these classes, and they seem to have been notably camera-shy, but here they are

 

http://www.crphillips-models.co.uk/gwrmodelspage9.html

 

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p940463268/hCAA9A474#hcaa9a474

 

http://www.gwr.org.uk/nopanniers.html

 

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, rockershovel said:

 

I’d never heard of any of these classes, and they seem to have been notably camera-shy, but here they are

 

http://www.crphillips-models.co.uk/gwrmodelspage9.html

 

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p940463268/hCAA9A474#hcaa9a474

 

http://www.gwr.org.uk/nopanniers.html

 

 

 

 

Useful to have the 2361 posed in front of the 2301 class to highlight the differences.

 

Another one missing which could be a winner is the 2-4-0 "Metro" tank (not outside cranks!) which had a long life in various guises.

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17 hours ago, The Johnster said:

You’re more likely to get a 517, same period and longevity but it sits on a 14xx chassis.  Available as 3D body print from Stafford Road. 

 

The metro tank is possible on the 14xx chassis with some modification. I'm still working on mine.

IMG_20200418_183441.jpg

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