Imaginary Locomotives

[rockershovel]

I can’t envisage single man operation for mainline steam, under any circumstances. 

[Suzie]

What about firing steam locos with LPG, or natural gas, or even town gas? Could have been a fun might- have-been with some interesting tenders and some novel firebox designs. The energy density being a tad lower than finest anthracite could make for some very big tenders I think.

[Flying Pig]

4 minutes ago, Suzie said:

or even town gas

 

The gasometers rising and falling on the tender would make for an interesting model.

[The Johnster]

A thing I’ve always wondered about gasometers; if a big enough group of us climbed on top of one and all jumped up and down in unison on the top, would peoples’ gas stove flames go in spurts... 

[Corbs]

2 hours ago, Suzie said:

What about firing steam locos with LPG, or natural gas, or even town gas? Could have been a fun might- have-been with some interesting tenders and some novel firebox designs. The energy density being a tad lower than finest anthracite could make for some very big tenders I think.

 

That's made me think of something a bit more mundane, but a town gas supply would be able to heat a steam boiler and create a reservoir, so a gasworks shunter could have been a fireless loco?

Edited September 1, 2020 by Corbs

[Compound2632]

5 hours ago, Corbs said:

 

That's made me think of something a bit more mundane, but a town gas supply would be able to heat a steam boiler and create a reservoir, so a gasworks shunter could have been a fireless loco?

 

But why, when there's a plentiful supply of coal coming in* or coke coming out? The principal advantage of a fireless loco is that it doesn't pollute the industrial process but for a gasworks that's hardly a consideration!

 

*Gas coal not steam coal - there might have to be the occasional wagonload of steam coal coming in. If pre-WW2, this would justify a South Wales (eastern Valleys) PO wagon in among the Bolsovers etc. 

 

As to alternative fuels, there were a number of sewage works with extensive narrow gauge railway systems. I wonder if... ?

[Corbs]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

As to alternative fuels, there were a number of sewage works with extensive narrow gauge railway systems. I wonder if... ?

 

Makes me think of the methane-powered train in Mad Max 3.

 

Was combustion a concern in a gas works environment?

[jcm@gwr]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

But why, when there's a plentiful supply of coal coming in* or coke coming out? The principal advantage of a fireless loco is that it doesn't pollute the industrial process but for a gasworks that's hardly a consideration!

 

*Gas coal not steam coal - there might have to be the occasional wagonload of steam coal coming in. If pre-WW2, this would justify a South Wales (eastern Valleys) PO wagon in among the Bolsovers etc. 

 

As to alternative fuels, there were a number of sewage works with extensive narrow gauge railway systems. I wonder if... ?

 

I would have thought that the main reason to use a fireless loco, was to

eliminate the firebox, and sparks from the chimney, therefore reducing

the chance of fire or explosion in certain volatile conditions.

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, jcm@gwr said:

 

I would have thought that the main reason to use a fireless loco, was to

eliminate the firebox, and sparks from the chimney, therefore reducing

the chance of fire or explosion in certain volatile conditions.

 

Any known instances of fireless locomotives at gasworks? The ones nearest to me worked in a biscuit factory.

[rockershovel]

12 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Any known instances of fireless locomotives at gasworks? The ones nearest to me worked in a biscuit factory.

 

Can’t see a requirement for one. A “town gas” gasworks basically consists of a range of furnaces where coal is heated under controlled conditions and gas is extracted from the fumes, then delivered by pumped pipeline. Input is coal to the furnaces, output would be ash and clinkers from those furnaces..

 

[Michael Hodgson]

We keep being told that to save the planet we need electrified railways in future.  How about a steam engine with a heavy duty immersion heater where the firebox should be?  We'd still have the tender to hold the water and we could stick a panto on top of that as it doesn't need a coal space.  Do away with the smokebox and all that pollution, and the only place for a spark arrester would be where it connects to the contact wire.  We'd need a better design for water trough though, as the scoops did tend to splash the stuff about a bit - the spray would need to be diverted away from the OHLE for safety reasons.

 

One might even devise a 25kV version of DCC and save the wages of footplatemen by driving all the trains from one of these new ROCs.

[micknich2003]

The Swiss had two electrically fired 0-6-0T engines in the last war, they worked but consumed too much current to warrant further conversions.

Edited September 1, 2020 by micknich2003

[Corbs]

48 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

We keep being told that to save the planet we need electrified railways in future.  How about a steam engine with a heavy duty immersion heater where the firebox should be?  We'd still have the tender to hold the water and we could stick a panto on top of that as it doesn't need a coal space.  Do away with the smokebox and all that pollution, and the only place for a spark arrester would be where it connects to the contact wire.  We'd need a better design for water trough though, as the scoops did tend to splash the stuff about a bit - the spray would need to be diverted away from the OHLE for safety reasons.

 

One might even devise a 25kV version of DCC and save the wages of footplatemen by driving all the trains from one of these new ROCs.

 

 

From earlier in the thread, a 25kV converted 9F with heating elements in the boiler and ground-level water filler - no climbing on top of the tender when under the wires!

 

[Flying Pig]

27 minutes ago, Corbs said:

From earlier in the thread, a 25kV converted 9F with heating elements in the boiler and ground-level water filler - no climbing on top of the tender when under the wires!

 

Obviously, just driving the wheels with electric motors is an absurd notion, so how many more stages of complication can we devise between the wires and the rails? I'm thinking perhaps an electrically powered coal gasification plant in the tender?

 

[jcm@gwr]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Any known instances of fireless locomotives at gasworks? The ones nearest to me worked in a biscuit factory.

 

Flour can be flammable, even sometimes explosive, same with custard powder!

[PhilJ W]

7 minutes ago, jcm@gwr said:

 

Flour can be flammable, even sometimes explosive, same with custard powder!

Many powders are flammable or explosive.

[jcm@gwr]

3 minutes ago, PhilJ W said:

Many powders are flammable or explosive.

 

I agree, but I was being specific about the biscuit factory,

especially if they made custard creams!

[PhilJ W]

It would be the flour that was flammable, many mills have been destroyed when flour ignites.

 

[rue_d_etropal]

3 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

We keep being told that to save the planet we need electrified railways in future.  How about a steam engine with a heavy duty immersion heater where the firebox should be? 

 

I would think an induction heater would be better. Far more efficient, and a lot quicker to heat up initially. With built in safety devise so that if water runs out it just switches off.

[Ben B]

8 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

As to alternative fuels, there were a number of sewage works with extensive narrow gauge railway systems. I wonder if... ?

 

I gather the shunters at Esholt Sewerage Works near Bradford burned something of the like, though I think it was some byproduct of the industrial cleaning process from the woolen mills.  Lanolin (wool grease) converted into oil to fire the two Hudswell Clarkes.

[Suzie]

Surely an electrically driven heat pump would be so much more efficient than those 1940's immersion heaters. Probably so efficient that that an efficient steam plant might be more efficient than a straight electric loco...

 

...Now when off the wires perhaps a coal gas plant and gas engine somewhere in the 60' long tender...perhaps an articulated tender...

[rodent279]

4 hours ago, Corbs said:

 

 

From earlier in the thread, a 25kV converted 9F with heating elements in the boiler and ground-level water filler - no climbing on top of the tender when under the wires!

 

You could also pre-heat the water in the tender, and since you wouldn't need draught to make a fire burn more efficiently, you could make it into a condensing engine, and dispense with troughs altogether. You could also dispense with reciprocating engines, and use turbines.

[Satan's Goldfish]

5 hours ago, Corbs said:

 

 

From earlier in the thread, a 25kV converted 9F with heating elements in the boiler and ground-level water filler - no climbing on top of the tender when under the wires!

 

 

5 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

 

Obviously, just driving the wheels with electric motors is an absurd notion, so how many more stages of complication can we devise between the wires and the rails? I'm thinking perhaps an electrically powered coal gasification plant in the tender?

 

 

1 hour ago, rodent279 said:

You could also pre-heat the water in the tender, and since you wouldn't need draught to make a fire burn more efficiently, you could make it into a condensing engine, and dispense with troughs altogether. You could also dispense with reciprocating engines, and use turbines.

 

Or; electrical supply heats water, pressurised steam drives pistons, still hot steam then drives hot side of a Stirling engine as part of the cool down for the condensing process, Stirling engine is used to generate electrical supply for cooling fans on main condenser and ETH for rest of train... sounds much better than just using a transformer and electrical motor

[Corbs]

Well you know, I was trying to work out a way of getting the full lifetime of the 9F  would also mean yards would not need to be electrified as it could run on its steam reserves when shunting.

[AlfaZagato]

Keep the 9F frames & cylinders, use something like half the boiler - just enough to keep a head of steam up for basic movements.   Electric motors on each axle, with whatever equipment needed mounted in the space vacated by the half-boiler.   Electric heating of the boiler, for use off the wire.