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Imaginary Locomotives


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1 hour ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

I think that ASLEF banned them on the grounds that they were too hard work for the fireman. But oil-fired might work.

ASLEF would have blacked them as they made double-heading (or double-banking) unnecessary and so would massively reduce the amount of traincrew overtime required.  This is exactly what they did on the S&D when the 9Fs were first introduced, continuing the high operational costs which afflicted the line and was one of the contributory factors to the line's closure.

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On 10/06/2021 at 16:52, The Johnster said:

Swindon didn't build any railcars, they were all outsourced and styled by the manufacturer.  Had Swindon been responisble for the styling, I would have thought something like the auto trailer look, having already been used on steam railmotors, would have been the default, and it is not impossible if we are playing the 'what if' game that the more recent steel bodied trailers might have been given underfloor engines to be come proto-dmus.

 

Nowhere did early electric or diesel locomotives feature streamlining, but the Americans siezed the opportunity with the Burlington Flyers and the F units (which were usually introduced in combination with streamlined aluminium Budd stock) and as it is no more difficult to build the outer shell of a diesel or electric locmotive to look sexy than to build a box, the rest of the world was much impressed with this and the F units in particular had a major influence on early British diesels.  Yard and road switchers were never really styled in this way, and modern traction has reverted to the flat fronted box or gone all 'bullet train', with no real in betweenery, 68s excepted.

Not hard to detect it's DNA in the styling of the AL series 25kv electrics!

 

I think that you bring up a whole new, and interesting sub-thread there: DMUs that look like an auto-trailer. Lots of cheap Airfix ones out there to play with. Engine above or below floor level?

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8 hours ago, rodent279 said:

Do you mean something like this?

Bergkönigin auf Abwegen...

A 2-10-2 rather than 4-10-2. If you prefer something larger, then there's this:-

46.03

"Mama Bear", a Bulgarian 2-12-4. Imagine that banking up Shap!

Hi Rodent,

 

I have posted this previously but one of these is required:

 

DSCF0409.JPG.feb3e69bfda513abfc5a50b8cfae3946.JPG

 

Gibbo.

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2 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

I think that you bring up a whole new, and interesting sub-thread there: DMUs that look like an auto-trailer. Lots of cheap Airfix ones out there to play with. Engine above or below floor level?

The AEC railcars had the engines mounted 'side saddle', a conventional vertical engine mounted outside of the frames with only the cylinder head above the frames. This meant that there was only a shallow step internally over the engine. If the GWR decided to build their own it would be sensible to carry on with the same layout. There were other side engined DMU's built for CIE in the early 50's with styling and cab design similar to the first generation BR DMU's which were underfloor horizontal engined. The reason for continuing with the side engined layout was the greater accessibility it afforded.  

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2 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

I think that you bring up a whole new, and interesting sub-thread there: DMUs that look like an auto-trailer. Lots of cheap Airfix ones out there to play with. Engine above or below floor level?

Which opens the possibility of Brill /Budd inspired single railcars

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On 10/06/2021 at 16:52, The Johnster said:

Swindon didn't build any railcars, they were all outsourced and styled by the manufacturer.  Had Swindon been responsible for the styling,

RCTS says 19 to 38 had bodies and undercarriages built at Swindon, although 18, the prototype for the later ones, was built at Gloucester Carriage and Wagon in 1937. However they were turned out 1940-1942, so no doubt wartime requirements changed everything. One might guess the simplified flat plate ends were a wartime feature too. RCTS is silent on who did the design work for the revised body shape.

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3 hours ago, Gibbo675 said:

Hi Rodent,

 

I have posted this previously but one of these is required:

 

DSCF0409.JPG.feb3e69bfda513abfc5a50b8cfae3946.JPG

 

Gibbo.

I think someone has had a go at a 9F tank as well, which would have looked a bit like the Bergkönigin above.

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The first design of Derby dmus looks not unlike the GW standard auto trailer in the cab, bow ended 3 windows, but with the addition of top lights that gave them a sort of cathederal west window look which I found rather attractive.

 

My 'imaginary auto trailer based dmu' would have probably looked something like an A38 with the ability to be driven from a normal auto trailer converted for multiple unit control, or as power twins, but there is the awful possibility that suburban services might have featured the flat ended compartment A43 'cyclops' style, which has little to commend it visually.  AEC would probably have provided the equipment, and the outside shaft drive may well have been retained, without the fairings, which would have been a challenge to model, especially working (!).  They would have probably lasted until the early 70s under BR if they'd been successful, and carried the various dmu green, blue, and blue/grey liveries and yellow end panels.

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17 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

I think someone has had a go at a 9F tank as well, which would have looked a bit like the Bergkönigin above.

  

On 03/02/2021 at 23:37, Ben Alder said:

At the extreme end of the usual appearances on this page, a GBL blind date consequence....inspired by a photoshop on the what if FB page.

 

IMG_1851.JPG

IMG_1849.JPG

 

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15 hours ago, rodent279 said:

Do you mean something like this?

Bergkönigin auf Abwegen...

A 2-10-2 rather than 4-10-2. If you prefer something larger, then there's this:-

46.03

"Mama Bear", a Bulgarian 2-12-4. Imagine that banking up Shap!

Hi all, 
the nearest i have come to making something like that is this 2-10-0 tank engine.

DSC_0906.JPG

DSC_0907.JPG

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@Ben Alder I’m somewhat late in reading this thread and replying but I have really enjoyed seeing those builds.  It’s not easy to marry all those components together!

I did a Caprotti Crosti Standard 5 and I have a 6P7F 2-8-2 proposed by Powell still proceeding glacially towards completion, which could get changed into the planned Riddles Standard 2-8-2 if I have a change of heart.

I will share in due course.  Probably about 2037 at this rate.

Thank you for sharing 

Iain

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10 hours ago, cypherman said:

Hi all, 
the nearest i have come to making something like that is this 2-10-0 tank engine.

DSC_0906.JPG

DSC_0907.JPG

 

Looks great, having no trailing truck it reminds me of the LSWR black tanks.

 

spacer.png

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A propos the styling/streamlining of the GWR railcars, the subject wasn't much understood in the 1930s and the two tended to be equated, to varying degrees. A classic example would be the Railton Cobb car which to this day, holds the Brookland lap record. As a sculpture of a racing car, featuring some quite superb craftsmanship it is in a class of its own, but it is not "streamlined" in any real sense. 

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Definitely agree about the "sexy looking diesels" thing. The Americans really mastered the "polished stainless" aesthetic with designs like the Budd carriages. The F3s were a stroke of genius on the styling front. Wartime aircraft like the B17, B29 and Mustang embodied it, too.

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I've been following this general topic for a long time, being of the freelance standard gauge persuasion. The following very possibly Freudian and the result of too much wallowing in nostalgia,which is what I'm prone to do. Or maybe a Hamilton-Ellis book that I haven't opened for years was calling me. Ok - deep breath. I dreamed last night of railways, as I'm sometimes inclined to do but instead of the usual rather un-settling and barely remembered recollections of childhood wanderings through the ruins of Birmingham Snow Hill, last night's performance was vivid, detailed and fits in with this thread nicely. I was just going to write it down and send to a couple of like-minded 7mm chums but it does fit well here. I awoke with a detailed memory of a locomotive - basically a slightly enlarged Midland "Princess of Wales" in a rich golden brown colour, a wheel on the smokebox door instead of the usual darts, big lamps on the running plate and an air pump and all the plumbing. The tender was still on bogies but shorter and higher and I think the cab had side windows. All maybe something to do with Belgian or Dutch State Railways and in the vague and smoky confines of a big European station with lofty and spidery roof and low platforms. If I had the time or ability I'd try to draw or Photoshop the beast but have it in my head and may just add it to the list of projects. It was vivid and rather lovely and I would badly like to create it sometime.  I may just pick up an N gauge Del Prado Johnson Single and something else from the range to provide a tender and make an unholy marriage of the two.  Anyone else ever had a similar experience? Any thoughts or comments welcome. 

 

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7 hours ago, rockershovel said:

A propos the styling/streamlining of the GWR railcars, the subject wasn't much understood in the 1930s and the two tended to be equated, to varying degrees.

The shape was determined in a wind tunnel. From what I recall of a longer article, the roof rising towards the centre improved the efficiency compared a a simpler constant height roof.

I think though that we can say that the razor-edged cars 19-38 merely paid lip-service to the original, smooth shape.

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On 19/01/2018 at 11:29, Dr Gerbil-Fritters said:

Corbs, hope you don;t mind but I tweaked your 9FT to be more like I remember the Durrant proposal...

 

post-238-0-56492700-1516361294_thumb.jpg

 

In his memoir he is very keen on 10, 12 and 14 coupled tanks!  He even finds some working 14s in Bulgaria of all places.

 

That Bulgarian tank makes my eyeballs warp... how many wheels?  Anyway, A E Durrant was a big fan of these locos and advocated big tanks in his book, Swindon Apprentice.  

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On 12/06/2021 at 22:31, JimC said:

Do you mean A44? If so agree, pig ugly.

But an essential part of 1953-64 modelling for South Wales.  These trailers, admittedly not stylish but no worse than HALs or EPBs to my mind, were converted from Collett flat ended brake third compartment coaches in connection with the Cardiff Valleys ‘regular interval’ timetable introduced in 1953 and the genetic ancestor of the current timetable, which introduced a lot of auto working in the area compared to the previous timetables.  A number of C66 thirds were given auto linkage to run with them as well.  At the same time a number of 4575 small panniers were fitted with auto gear for the new services, and some 64xx xfer to the area.  
 

The style was not new, however, as a few similar brake composites were converted in 1938 for the Lydney-Sharpness seevice across the Severn Railway Bridge; the ticketing was joint with the LMS and first class accommodation was needed.  
 

Compartment auto stock such as these and the ‘Clifton Downs’ sets could not be used on services where low level or unstaffed platforms were encountered, as unlike on ‘normal’ auto trailers there was no means for the guard to sell tickets aboard the train or folding steps for passengers to board or detrain.  
 

For obvious reasons they were known as ‘cyclops’ trailers, and looked quite smart in the lined maroon post 1959 livery, which carried the lining around the cab end with the upper line following the roof curve.  The non- driving ends were painted black, including those on the Severn Bridge trailers in GW liveries, though in this case the lining was also carried around the cab end.  
 

The South Wales cyclops trailers are available as a kit from Comet/Wizard. 

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On 10/06/2021 at 10:55, Anadin Dogwalker said:

One of the early SNCF 2D2s -the 5500s?- of swiss design - on expresses and something  like the Emmental/Bodensee Be4/4s for freight and stoppers would have my approval. 

Like these?

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SNCF_2D2_5500

 

Plausible, especially given the GWR's track record for procuring French locomotives. The semi-streamlined "pregnant lady" version is also not too far removed from the GWR railcars, I'm sure the cabs could have been something similar.

 

And it's already painted in GWR green.....

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Just a further thought following the rather bizarre post I made the other day regarding a locomotive I had in a dream, and which perhaps I should have kept quiet about. This thread is all about alternative history and one thing that I do mull over from time to time is that in the 1880's and 1890's there was a considerable revival in interest in the use of a locomotive with a single pair of driving wheels for relatively light and fast trains. The Midland, Caledonian, GWR, GCR, GNR, NER and probably others all had examples- of modern 4-4-2 machines, sometimes simples, sometimes compounds. Mainly inside cylindered jobs. However, this seems to have been entirely confined to the UK. I'm really struggling to find a loco overseas from this period with single driving wheels - nothing around much after the mid 1860's that I can find. I'm sure there were probably many good reasons why this form of loco never left our shores. But what if?

 

McIntosh provided the Belgian system with a whole range of very typically Scottish locos and with a bit of a nudge might he not have taken the Neilson Caledonian 123 as a possible design for adoption? Or the loco might even have perhaps been bought by Belgium rather than the Caley? I just wonder what scope there might be for overseas single driver express passenger locos if politics might have been different.

 

Aside from Belgium, Sweden and the Netherlands inside cylindered locos weren't generally popular and so we would perhaps need to think of outside cylindered possibilities - these are few and far between and the earlier GNR Stirling, Caledonian and Great Eastern Sinclair ones are all that spring to mind. 

 

The only overseas singles that I can find are the "Lovett Eames" of 1882 and the amazing Shanghai-Nanking loco that was early Twentieth century.

 

Anyone know of any more?

 

lovett-eames-single-bogie-express-locomotive-14261614.jpg

Shanghai Nanking.jpg

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22 hours ago, The Johnster said:

These trailers, admittedly not stylish but no worse than HALs or EPBs to my mind,

 

There's a slightly off-topic thought: a BR standard driving trailer with a cab in EPB style.  It doesn't fit history as railcarisation was underway by the time the BR-pattern EMUs came along, but still. 

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