Imaginary Locomotives

[The Johnster]

1 hour ago, Johnson044 said:

Just a further thought following the rather bizarre post I made the other day regarding a locomotive I had in a dream, and which perhaps I should have kept quiet about. This thread is all about alternative history and one thing that I do mull over from time to time is that in the 1880's and 1890's there was a considerable revival in interest in the use of a locomotive with a single pair of driving wheels for relatively light and fast trains. The Midland, Caledonian, GWR, GCR, GNR, NER and probably others all had examples- of modern 4-4-2 machines, sometimes simples, sometimes compounds. Mainly inside cylindered jobs. However, this seems to have been entirely confined to the UK. I'm really struggling to find a loco overseas from this period with single driving wheels - nothing around much after the mid 1860's that I can find. I'm sure there were probably many good reasons why this form of loco never left our shores. But what if?

 

McIntosh provided the Belgian system with a whole range of very typically Scottish locos and with a bit of a nudge might he not have taken the Neilson Caledonian 123 as a possible design for adoption? Or the loco might even have perhaps been bought by Belgium rather than the Caley? I just wonder what scope there might be for overseas single driver express passenger locos if politics might have been different.

 

Aside from Belgium, Sweden and the Netherlands inside cylindered locos weren't generally popular and so we would perhaps need to think of outside cylindered possibilities - these are few and far between and the earlier GNR Stirling, Caledonian and Great Eastern Sinclair ones are all that spring to mind. 

 

The only overseas singles that I can find are the "Lovett Eames" of 1882 and the amazing Shanghai-Nanking loco that was early Twentieth century.

 

Anyone know of any more?

 

 That Shanghai-Nanking loco has a lot of the Midland look to it and anyone wanting to see what an outside cylindered Johnson/Deeley single might have looked like needs look no further. 
 

The resurgence of singles in the UK in the 1880s and 90s gave us some stunning loco porn.  It was very much related to an American development, steam sanding.  Singles with big driving wheels in the early days 3 or 4 decades before, which was when the late Victorian CMEs cut their teeth, were a sensible way of achieving fast running speeds with the low piston rates and bearing revolution speeds that the poor lubricants and bearing materials of the time demanded.  By the 80s and 90s 4-coupled locos were doing most of the work, but the lubricants and bearings were still not up to really fast running. 
 

Steam sanding was immediately seized on as a means to re-introduce large wheeled singles that could haul much greater loads than their predecessors, and would run more freely than their 4-coupled brethren.  They made a lot of sense for the fastest traffic so long as the loads were not too great and the routes were not onerously hilly, and the wide fireboxes, unrestricted by the rear driving wheels of the 4-4-0s, made for free steaming as well.  The 4-4-0s were there anyway to back them up and do the heavier work  But why only in the UK?

 

I would postulate several factors, including the restricted British loading gauge that forced fireboxes down over the rear driving axles but allowed European and particularly American CMEs to design 4- and 6-coupled locos with large diameter driving wheels that could go fast and draw heavy trains, the probability that some countries did not require fast locos in the same way that we and the Americans did (the State Railways of many European countries viewing passenger traffic that they did not have to compete for on most routes as less important than their main purpose, which was strategic and military), and the very strong small c conservatism that pervaded British railway culture in general. 

[PhilJ W]

Didn't the Germans have a steam railcar that was a 4-2-0? IIRC it also had outside Walscherts valve gear.

[JeremyC]

1 hour ago, PhilJ W said:

Didn't the Germans have a steam railcar that was a 4-2-0? IIRC it also had outside Walscherts valve gear.

There's this one which is 4 wheeled with one axle powered

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Württembergischer_DW_8_1905.png

[Anadin Dogwalker]

On 15/06/2021 at 09:16, rodent279 said:

Like these?

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SNCF_2D2_5500

 

Plausible, especially given the GWR's track record for procuring French locomotives. The semi-streamlined "pregnant lady" version is also not too far removed from the GWR railcars, I'm sure the cabs could have been something similar.

 

And it's already painted in GWR green.....

Yes, these exactly. I think they look a lot more handsome than the Ae4/7s thanks to the equal sized windscreens and lack of corner quarterlights. The symmetrical chassis arrangement  looks better too. Ive seen the one in the Mulhouse museum and there's supposed to be a mainline certified one, but no idea on its status. 

[rodent279]

19 minutes ago, Anadin Dogwalker said:

Yes, these exactly. I think they look a lot more handsome than the Ae4/7s thanks to the equal sized windscreens and lack of corner quarterlights. The symmetrical chassis arrangement  looks better too. Ive seen the one in the Mulhouse museum and there's supposed to be a mainline certified one, but no idea on its status. 

2D2 5525 is mainline certified, if YouTube is anything to go by.

Personally, I prefer Ae4/7's, but probably only because I have memories of being hauled by one on the Calais-Zurich(?) sleeper from (presumably) Basle Hbf to Jenbach, on a family holiday in 1982. There's cine of the loco taken from the front coach, and of stations such as Vaduz. I remember standing in Jenbach station, with my dad, and him pointing out the Büchli drive.

[Johnson044]

On 15/06/2021 at 21:55, JeremyC said:

There's this one which is 4 wheeled with one axle powered

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Württembergischer_DW_8_1905.png

Gorgeous little beast!

[Johnson044]

On 15/06/2021 at 15:38, The Johnster said:

 That Shanghai-Nanking loco has a lot of the Midland look to it and anyone wanting to see what an outside cylindered Johnson/Deeley single might have looked like needs look no further. 
 

The resurgence of singles in the UK in the 1880s and 90s gave us some stunning loco porn.  It was very much related to an American development, steam sanding.  Singles with big driving wheels in the early days 3 or 4 decades before, which was when the late Victorian CMEs cut their teeth, were a sensible way of achieving fast running speeds with the low piston rates and bearing revolution speeds that the poor lubricants and bearing materials of the time demanded.  By the 80s and 90s 4-coupled locos were doing most of the work, but the lubricants and bearings were still not up to really fast running. 
 

Steam sanding was immediately seized on as a means to re-introduce large wheeled singles that could haul much greater loads than their predecessors, and would run more freely than their 4-coupled brethren.  They made a lot of sense for the fastest traffic so long as the loads were not too great and the routes were not onerously hilly, and the wide fireboxes, unrestricted by the rear driving wheels of the 4-4-0s, made for free steaming as well.  The 4-4-0s were there anyway to back them up and do the heavier work  But why only in the UK?

 

I would postulate several factors, including the restricted British loading gauge that forced fireboxes down over the rear driving axles but allowed European and particularly American CMEs to design 4- and 6-coupled locos with large diameter driving wheels that could go fast and draw heavy trains, the probability that some countries did not require fast locos in the same way that we and the Americans did (the State Railways of many European countries viewing passenger traffic that they did not have to compete for on most routes as less important than their main purpose, which was strategic and military), and the very strong small c conservatism that pervaded British railway culture in general. 

Yes- the Shanghai-Nanking loco does look very Johnson/Deeley now you come to mention it! I don't think loading gauge was an issue on this occasion. Looks like it was also available in green, BTW, in which form the family resemblance to a Deeley compound is even more pronounced - just put your thumb over the trailing wheels and see! The Lovett Eames is a curious anomaly - I understand that the cut down cab enabled it to be tried out in the uk.

[Cunningham Loco & Machine Works]

Nice to see the Lovett Eames on here. Here is the original version, and the ca. 1962 model thereof.

[Corbs]

I'm sure I've seen a works photo of the 4-2-2 but can't find it. Here's a nice pic of the atlantic, though

 

[sir douglas]

Built for the Tao Ching railway in China in 1912

[DK123GWR]

How about a GWR outside valve gear 4-6-0 with no firebox and a dome which carries stone in the tender?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p05rm2lf

I certainly do spot something new every time I pass this. Usually, it makes me wonder if the artist has ever seen a steam locomotive.

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, DK123GWR said:

How about a GWR outside valve gear 4-6-0 with no firebox and a dome which carries stone in the tender?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p05rm2lf

I certainly do spot something new every time I pass this. Usually, it makes me wonder if the artist has ever seen a steam locomotive.

 

Looks more like a B17 or some such to me! Not that I know much about either GWR or LNER engines.

Edited June 19, 2021 by Compound2632

[Johnson044]

I really love and appreciate public art, of which there is far too little in this country- and sometimes its excellent - historically accurate, witty and fun- but really can't see any appeal in the distorted B17 purporting to be a Great Western loco. It's like shoving any old bit of film of a black five with BR Mk 1's into a movie scene that's supposed to be set in the 20's - there are SO many examples (oh yes- anyone else enjoy the 1970's BR interior in "Dunkirk"?). It's a train- what are you making a fuss about? There is absolutely no reason why it can't be right. The Kenneth Budd mosaic, sadly destroyed in a wanton act of civic vandalism (or, just possibly, hopefully, maybe, buried for future archaeologists to marvel at) got it spot on. Rant Rant Foam Foam. Grrr.

[Johnson044]

On 19/06/2021 at 14:21, Corbs said:

I'm sure I've seen a works photo of the 4-2-2 but can't find it. Here's a nice pic of the atlantic, though

 

Quite magnificent. Well- no loading gauge issue here, I think. The 4-2-2 is no lightweight, either- the driving wheels on the "Imperial Yellow Mail Engine" are 7'.

[Michael Edge]

Kerr Stuart 1183 built 1910

[Michael Edge]

The weight diagram for the 4-2-2

 

[Compound2632]

18 t 18 c on the driving wheels. For comparison, S.W. Johnson's piston-valve bogie singles of 1893/6 (179 / 115 Class) were officially 18 t 10 c on the driving wheels, as were the Princess of Wales singles of 1900 - but there was trouble when one actually weighed in at 20 tons! 

 

They were not quite as heavy all round, only 15 t 15 c on the bogie and 13 t 1 c on the trailing axle (16 t 16 c and 14 t 16 c for the later engines). Pollitt's Belpaire singles (GCR Class 13, LNER X4) might be a closer comparison.

[Johnson044]

Ok- to follow my earlier ramblings about late Victorian singles, I had a bit of an audit of my scrap box last night and had a notion for a further project (progress with which will, inevitably, be glacial). I've been hoarding odds and sods for a long time with the vague notion of constructing a further loco for the Ledsham & Hereford Railway and have, amongst other bits, a pair of 7' drivers, 1.5 pairs of 4'3" trailing wheels and some hand-cut frames for what I think might be an LBSCR Grosvenor 2-2-2- all cheaply won from ebay. I found this rather delightful 4-4-0 for the Paulista Railway in a book of photos of products of NBL co and its predecessors, and the family resemblance to my Cambrian / Furness 4-4-0 is obvious - so - the quickest and wobbliest of sketches at the scrag end of the working day. The L&H could maybe purchase an unusual export order that was cancelled. I've raised the boiler a bit to allow for the crank axle to move up by 9". Hm. Well - Laurie Griffin does a nice set bogie casting for an SE & CR H class which could be modified from inside to outside frame configuration so most of the bits beginning to fall into place. Not sure about the aesthetics yet- or the Ramsbottom safety valve on the same boiler as a salter balance one. I'll do a better sketch when I get the chance. Any comments much appreciated!

[ScottishRailFanatic]

Not quite imaginary, but has anyone seen or Photoshopped a locomotive in similar vein to Dugald Drummond's 'Bug' inspection unit from the LSWR? I'm aware of quite a few railmotors, but haven't seen any in a 4-2-2 arrangement excluding the aforementioned loco. 

[PhilJ W]

15 minutes ago, ScottishRailFanatic said:

Not quite imaginary, but has anyone seen or Photoshopped a locomotive in similar vein to Dugald Drummond's 'Bug' inspection unit from the LSWR? I'm aware of quite a few railmotors, but haven't seen any in a 4-2-2 arrangement excluding the aforementioned loco. 

The 'Bug' was a 4-2-4. This one was built for the Viceroy of Egypt, decoration is a little OTT.

[PhilJ W]

Here's a (freelance?) model.

[BernardTPM]

But based on an actual (Standard Gauge) inspection railcar converted from a Hawthorn Leslie saddle tank for the Nitrate Railways.

[Johnson044]

2 minutes ago, BernardTPM said:

But based on an actual (Standard Gauge) inspection railcar converted from a Hawthorn Leslie saddle tank for the Nitrate Railways.

Isn't that delightful! The Prototype for Everything dept is alive and kicking!

[Johnson044]

Closest thing I can muster is this little contraption I built a few years ago. Very, very loosely inspired by a William Bridges Adams light loco / carriage combination, but an altogether heavier engine and a separate saloon. The valve gear is purely fanciful and I've no idea if the valves could ever be made to work with the valve chests under the cylinders (I think Webb double singles on the LNWR have something similar). Mainly plastikard with Tri-ang Lord of the Isles driving wheels. The saloon is made from bits from the carriages from the Minicraft Japanese Vulcan 2-4-0 kit, which is an absolute cornucopia of useful parts if you are interested in freelance 7mm scale modelling. The transfers have a bit of a visible film around them, which is a pity.

[Johnson044]

Outside cranks started life as driving wheels on a Tri-ang L1. There's a tiny open frame motor vertically in the firebox and the nebulous valve rods both move back and forth at the same time, driven by a single eccentric on the driving axle. Actually runs quite well but never going to be expected to pull very much. Must get a crew one of these days.