Imaginary Locomotives

[rodent279]

15 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

I always though that Sodor was way too small to justify anything as big as a Gordon. The main line being basically from Barrow in Furness to the Isle of Man, which is what, 30 miles? It wouldn't need anything with a tender for that kind of thing...

 

Edit - ok, it's about 50 miles, but still not far enough to justify tender locos. A nice fleet of big tank engines would be just the job.

Yeah, but hey, Rule 1 and all that....

Edited July 2, 2021 by rodent279

[Zomboid]

I'm just thinking of these big tank engines. Maybe if there are heavy freight flows something like a 2-8-4T would be needed, and you'd probably need a relatively large wheeled 4-6-4T for the passenger trains and the flying kipper, getting up to 70mph or so...

[tythatguy1312]

7 hours ago, Zomboid said:

I'm just thinking of these big tank engines. Maybe if there are heavy freight flows something like a 2-8-4T would be needed, and you'd probably need a relatively large wheeled 4-6-4T for the passenger trains and the flying kipper, getting up to 70mph or so...

The Flying Kipper is said to go well beyond NWR Metals in other materials, so yeah a fast goods loco with a tender would be necessary, maybe something like a 4-6-0. That is assuming the NWR couldn't just... swap locomotives at Vicarstown or Barrow but still.

[Zomboid]

I suppose it depends how far off the island the trains run, but wasn't it pretty normal to have loco changes at or near to the boundaries? Barrow would be an obvious place to change engines, or it could be the Furness/ LMS loco that does the whole trip to/ from Carnforth. The same would go for any through trains to London/ Manchester/ Scotland.

 

Of course we're talking about the Isle of Sodor here, so it's clearly rule 1, but I'm sticking to my big tank engine railway theory.

[tythatguy1312]

40 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

I suppose it depends how far off the island the trains run, but wasn't it pretty normal to have loco changes at or near to the boundaries? Barrow would be an obvious place to change engines, or it could be the Furness/ LMS loco that does the whole trip to/ from Carnforth. The same would go for any through trains to London/ Manchester/ Scotland.

 

Of course we're talking about the Isle of Sodor here, so it's clearly rule 1, but I'm sticking to my big tank engine railway theory.

depending on the Material, it's either to Barrow, Manchester or beyond. all that's stated in the original story is that it goes "to other places far away" which is... annoyingly vague.

[john new]

 

Film prop Iron Horse on display at Midleton, Co. Cork (Eire) 

 

See youtube for the advert/film it was in - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqXvigC7c40

 

Edited April 15, 2022 by john new
Image(s) reloaded post site crash.

[ScottishRailFanatic]

Here’s a couple (already existent) candidates for the NWR’s fleet, a GWR Small Prairie for branch/light goods and the LNER V2 for express and heavy goods. I’ve decided on unlined blue for smaller locos and a dark version of the official lined blue livery from the books. More on the way shortly.

[Murican]

20 hours ago, Zomboid said:

I always though that Sodor was way too small to justify anything as big as a Gordon. The main line being basically from Barrow in Furness to the Isle of Man, which is what, 30 miles? It wouldn't need anything with a tender for that kind of thing...

 

Edit - ok, it's about 50 miles, but still not far enough to justify tender locos. A nice fleet of big tank engines would be just the job.

Yeah that's why if I were to recreate the Railway Series, I'd have located Sodor off the coast of Blackpool. It allows Sodor enough room to be the kind of big island that justifies a railway network that large.

[scots region]

21 hours ago, Zomboid said:

I always though that Sodor was way too small to justify anything as big as a Gordon. The main line being basically from Barrow in Furness to the Isle of Man, which is what, 30 miles? It wouldn't need anything with a tender for that kind of thing...

 

Edit - ok, it's about 50 miles, but still not far enough to justify tender locos. A nice fleet of big tank engines would be just the job.

 

I wonder where Sodor would be if Awdry had been born an American. 

[Murican]

1 minute ago, scots region said:

 

I wonder where Sodor would be if Awdry had been born an American. 

If you ask me off the coast of Florida or Washington would have been good choices.

[Gibbo675]

21 hours ago, Murican said:

If you ask me off the coast of Florida or Washington would have been good choices.

Hi Murican,

 

If off the coast of Florida that make it the Isle of Atlantis, and if so would Gordon have been an Atlantic ?

 

I suppose he would remain a Pacific off the coast of Washington.

 

Gibbo.

Edited July 4, 2021 by Gibbo675
Spelling

[62613]

On 24/06/2021 at 15:25, The Johnster said:

 

John Axon, an Edgeley man who stayed at his post on a runaway 8F hauled freight from Capel-en-le-Frith in the 1950s and was posthumously awarded a GC, pushed his fireman off the loco in this way.  By the 70s when I was a freight guard at Canton, the general agreement was that you told your secondman to hide in the engine room, and did not join him until you were certain that you had done all that was possible to prevent or mitigate the impact; in many cases there was no time to take this action.  On the brake van, you were expected to stay at your post in order to protect the train in rear with detonators, and my view was that you were likely to be seriously injured if you abandoned ship at anything more than about 25mph anyway, no matter how well you had tucked and rolled.  By the time you were aware that you were running away, you were already going much faster than that.

 

George Tarr, one of my regular drivers and a great bloke, was driving a train of 45ton vacuum braked tanks up from Carmarthen Jc which suffered a broken axle on one of the tanks between Carmarthen Jc and Llansteffan Crossing; the train derailed when it encountered the turnouts at Llansteffan.  Speed was about 50mph.  The guard was riding in the back cab and had already taken shelter in the engine room of the 47, and George ordered his secondman in there as well.  The loco went over on it's left hand side and George, with the rest of the traincrew trapped but safe in the engine room (the front engine room door was distorted and jammed, and the rear cab buried in tanks and spilled heavy fuel oil), and with a broken leg, dragged himself out of the cab and towards Ferryside to flag down the down Paddington-Carmarthen papers, which had signals cleared for it.  Not surprisingly he passed out from the pain and was found some time later with the leg fracture compounded considerably, but the driver on the papers had seen his red Bardic and pulled up in good time.  The box was not manned at that time of night.

 

 

According to the testimony of the fireman, quoted in The Ballad of John Axon, Axon told him to jump off and pin down as many wagon brakes as he could; they were both clinging onto the cab side, as the cab was full of steam at 250lb/sq.in. Axon was trying to close the regulator from the outside using the fire irons, but it was impossible. It's a wonder he wasn't knocked off going through Dove Holes tunnels.

 

Did George Farr receive any official recognition?

[Murican]

So I've been thinking. Does anyone know what numbers the LMS "Admiral" 4-6-4s or the 4-8-4s would have had they actually been built?

[62613]

On 28/06/2021 at 21:57, Hroth said:

 

And melt its bearings even sooner!

 

They'd be beefier!

 

[JimC]

23 hours ago, Zomboid said:

A nice fleet of big tank engines would be just the job.

I think there are issues.

Express tank engines were never popular, and there were big question marks over them in the 30s after the River accident.

Then there's the whole weight adhesion thing. If something the same power as Gordon has a decent factor of adhesion with empty tanks then its going to be very heavy with full tanks, or if a reasonable weight with full tanks then very slippery with empty ones.

There's also the tiny locomotive fleet. Gordon's express passenger trip may not be very long, but he's got to run all the services. There's going to be a lot of those thirty mile trips in a day, and a swift turnround at rush hour too. Pretty intensive working. Not going to want to stop for water until at least mid morning - I don't recall water troughs. Not in the books anyway.

 

 

Edited July 3, 2021 by JimC

[RedGemAlchemist]

12 hours ago, john new said:

 

 

Film prop Iron Horse on display at Midleton, Co. Cork (Eire) 

 

 

 

 

See youtube for the advert/film it was in - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqXvigC7c40

 

I actually remember this advert. Made me laugh seeing this on TV.

[Zomboid]

9 minutes ago, JimC said:

I think there are issues.

Express tank engines were never popular, and there were big question marks over them in the 30s after the River accident.

Then there's the whole weight adhesion thing. If something the same power as Gordon has a decent factor of adhesion with empty tanks then its going to be very heavy with full tanks, or if a reasonable weight with full tanks then very slippery with empty ones.

There's also the tiny locomotive fleet. Gordon's express passenger trip may not be very long, but he's got to run all the services. There's going to be a lot of those thirty mile trips in a day, and a swift turnround at rush hour too. Pretty intensive working. Not going to want to stop for water until at least mid morning - I don't recall water troughs. Not in the books anyway.

 

 

Big tanks weren't that popular because most railways had long enough runs that they needed tender engines. The Sevenoaks accident was more because of dodgy track than any inherent issues with the concept of a large tank engine.

Agree on the adhesion thing, but if turn-rounds etc were any issue then most suburban trains would have used tender engines, which wasn't the case. Not having to faff about on a turntable or triangle will give a few minutes to fill the tanks, which being smaller than a tender won't take that long. Coal capacity is more likely to be a problem.

[DK123GWR]

17 minutes ago, JimC said:

I think there are issues.

Express tank engines were never popular, and there were big question marks over them in the 30s after the River accident.

Then there's the whole weight adhesion thing. If something the same power as Gordon has a decent factor of adhesion with empty tanks then its going to be very heavy with full tanks, or if a reasonable weight with full tanks then very slippery with empty ones.

There's also the tiny locomotive fleet. Gordon's express passenger trip may not be very long, but he's got to run all the services. There's going to be a lot of those thirty mile trips in a day, and a swift turnround at rush hour too. Pretty intensive working. Not going to want to stop for water until at least mid morning - I don't recall water troughs. Not in the books anyway.

 

 

Might tanks also force the boiler size (and hence power) to be reduced?

[john new]

Tanks worked well enough in the West Riding on portions of the multi-portion workings to from Kings Cross.

[PhilJ W]

Both the Metropolitan and the LT&S used tank locomotives exclusively for passenger work.

[Compound2632]

On 02/07/2021 at 21:35, JimC said:

One imagines that an LMS version of the Castle would have had the same relationship to the real thing as the Royal Scot did to the Lord Nelson.

 

None whatsoever, then?

[Compound2632]

On 02/07/2021 at 21:35, JimC said:

One imagines that an LMS version of the Castle would have had the same relationship to the real thing as the Royal Scot did to the Lord Nelson.

 

Hang on a mo, though. Thinking this through - the Royal Scot was the LMS version of the Castle. Operating Department said, we want fifty like that; CME's Department said, here you go, fifty - job done. And another twenty for good measure.

Edited July 3, 2021 by Compound2632

[PenrithBeacon]

The Scot was  the LMS equivalent of the Castle. Post War the re-built Scot was considered to be better than the single chimney King

[rodent279]

So if Swindon had supplied those drawings to the LMS, what would an LMS Castle have looked like? Crewe style domed boiler, perhaps tapered, with safety valves over the firebox? Outside valve gear, 3 or 4 cyls, maybe a built up smokebox as in the real Royal Scots? Horwich style cab, somewhat under proportioned Midland style tender.

 

I always think that in the end, the Jubilee was what an LMS Castle would have been. But even if they had built Castles straight off the plans, they still would have only been a stop gap for a few years. The next step up from the Castle is the King-and they wouldn't really have cut the mustard on the non-stop Scottish runs. They might have kept a lid on things for a while, but the need for the Pacifics would still have arisen.

[The Johnster]

4 hours ago, 62613 said:

 

 

Did George Farr receive any official recognition?

AFAIK, no, and he didn't want any.  He was 'just doing his job'.  Great bloke and genuine hero.