Imaginary Locomotives

[Joseph_Pestell]

4 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Something one could hardly fail to notice. The operating conditions endemic on British railways were not such as to enable the best to be got out of compound engines, by and large. In France, with very long-distance runs (by British standards) at a steady rate of work (up hill and down at no more than the legal maximum of 75 mph) compounding came into its own. Webb was able to build compounds for 150-mile runs on the WCML but they could not be used to advantage when displaced onto secondary work as train weights increased. Had Gresley not died in office and had the war not intervened, perhaps the next step in development of ECML express locomotives might have been a Chapelon-inspired compound pacific.

 

Were there many long runs in France?

 

Long-distance trains, yes. But they all seemed to have multiple locomotive changes.

[The Johnster]

7 hours ago, rockershovel said:

Various railways built small numbers of 0-8-0, 0-8-4 and even 4-8-0 tanks for hump yard shunting. Only the GWR built 8 coupled MT tank locos, for their specialised local traffic in S Wales

And the china clay traffic in Cornwall, but again these were intended for short haul heavy freight work, not mixed traffic. 

[Michael Edge]

16 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

 

It would work better as a 2-8-4t with the boiler in its original position relative to the cylinders. Apart from lining up the steam and exhaust pipes that would allow a bigger bunker behind the cab: as it is the water and coal capacity look way out of balance.  

I think you'll find that the LMS got there before you....

This has already been on RMweb before.

[t-b-g]

 

I think you'll find that the LMS got there before you....

This has already been on RMweb before.

 

That is what you get if you breed an 8F with a Stanier 2-6-4T

Edited July 28, 2021 by t-b-g
typo

[Michael Edge]

I might just build one of these one day - really chunky loco.

[rodent279]

 

If Gresley had gone down the compounding route Stanier was bound to follow. Or for that matter if Stanier came up with a compound pacific likely as not Gresley would have followed suit. Then would have Bullied considered compounding for the West Country routes? Or Hawksworth for the Cornish routes?

Would they in fact have collaborated on a Pacific design for long distance Anglo-Scottish traffic? Maybe even to the point of a common pool?

[Flying Pig]

 

I think you'll find that the LMS got there before you....

This has already been on RMweb before.

 

Yes, I know it's not a new idea as it has cropped up in various places on RMweb.  I don't recall seeing that one before though.  I wonder what the proposed work was? 

 

A. J. Powell proposed a rather smaller 2-8-4t for heavy suburban work, based on redundant early Black Five boilers released by using the frames of the Black Fives in building a class of 4-6-2+2-6-4 Garrats for the northern end of the WCML.  Bogies for the 2-8-4t would be redundant from Fowler 2-6-4t's converted to 2-6-0 tender locos and leading trucks from Fowler 2-6-2t's which would just be redundant.

[ScottishRailFanatic]

“Night of the Living Bread”

A joke Q1 0-8-0T, just to make it look even more like a bread loaf on wheels!

If anyone can find a use for it you’ll get a proverbial medal

[rockershovel]

The Americans also abandoned compounding after long experience, as slow-speed drag freight was replaced by faster traffic 

[DK123GWR]

2 hours ago, ScottishRailFanatic said:

“Night of the Living Bread”

A joke Q1 0-8-0T, just to make it look even more like a bread loaf on wheels!

If anyone can find a use for it you’ll get a proverbial medal

Parking on the White Cliffs of Dover to scare away the Nazis?

[rodent279]

6 minutes ago, DK123GWR said:

 

2 hours ago, ScottishRailFanatic said:

“Night of the Living Bread”

A joke Q1 0-8-0T, just to make it look even more like a bread loaf on wheels!

If anyone can find a use for it you’ll get a proverbial medal

 

Looking at those centre pair of wheels, I think it's going to have a job moving anywhere, let alone parking on the White Cliffs......

[DK123GWR]

2 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

Looking at those centre pair of wheels, I think it's going to have a job moving anywhere, let alone parking on the White Cliffs......

It's OK. I had a better idea after posting that.

 

Target practice!

[Ben Alder]

Here is my take on the LMS 2-8-4T. It should have a larger bunker but was thrown together on a whim using redundant parts from previous hackings.

 

[tythatguy1312]

51 minutes ago, DK123GWR said:

Parking on the White Cliffs of Dover to scare away the Nazis?

then they'd just bomb it harder, hell they might even aim long range artillery directly at it

[cypherman]

36 minutes ago, tythatguy1312 said:

then they'd just bomb it harder, hell they might even aim long range artillery directly at it

Well if their bombing and shelling was as accurate as it was when they attacked the radar stations, Then they may just about scratch the paint on it......

Edited July 28, 2021 by cypherman

[Clive Mortimore]

1 hour ago, Ben Alder said:

Here is my take on the LMS 2-8-4T. It should have a larger bunker but was thrown together on a whim using redundant parts from previous hackings.

 

"......thrown together on a whim....." I wish I could have whims like this.

[ScottishRailFanatic]

8 hours ago, rodent279 said:

Looking at those centre pair of wheels, I think it's going to have a job moving anywhere, let alone parking on the White Cliffs......

So it is - I never noticed that during editing! I won’t bother fixing it; there’s some good ideas circulating for it already on this thread…

[rodent279]

Has anyone speculated on what might have happened to the locomotive fleet if the railways had been nationalised in 1923, instead of the grouping?

Or maybe even earlier, perhaps in the late 19th century?

[Andy Kirkham]

1 hour ago, rodent279 said:

Has anyone speculated on what might have happened to the locomotive fleet if the railways had been nationalised in 1923, instead of the grouping?

Or maybe even earlier, perhaps in the late 19th century?

The closest thing to a standard type at that time was the Woolwich Mogul; perhaps that might have been adopted. But of course it would all depend who was appointed CME.

 

This is confirmed by the Wikipedia entry on the N class:

The first batch of the N class proved successful in service, and few problems were encountered after settling-in. The Ministry of Supply drew up a contract for a second batch to the same specification – to be built at the Royal Arsenal, Woolwich. The government backing came as part of a proposal to nationalise the railways, which would require a standard fleet of locomotives to promote economies in production and maintenance.

Edited July 29, 2021 by Andy Kirkham

[DK123GWR]

53 minutes ago, Andy Kirkham said:

The closest thing to a standard type at that time was the Woolwich Mogul; perhaps that might have been adopted. But of course it would all depend who was appointed CME.

For nationalisation in 1923, it seems reasonable that it would have been one of the people who became a big 4 CME then Collett, Maunsell, Gresley, and Hughes would have been considered. Here is a very short overview of each:

 

Collett had never been a CME before taking over the GWR at around this time.

Maunsell had been CME of the SE&CR since 1913. From what little I know of him it seems that he was more of a manager than a designer. Would this have been seen as desireable given the vast scope of the job?

Gresley had been CME of the GNR since 1911. It is worth noting that he was not the first choice for the LNER job, but was reccomended by Robinson who turned it down. The ROD had chosen a Robinson design as their standard loco.

Hughes had been CME of the L&YR since 1904.

 

Of course, this ignores the quality of their previous work (which is subjective) and the inevitable political struggle, which might have led to any or none of these candidates getting the job.

[PhilJ W]

There would probably been regional differences such as occurred with nationalisation when it eventually happened. The Western region went its own way and the Southern slightly less so with diesel hydraulics and electro-diesels respectively. The North Eastern had been looking at main line electrification prior to the grouping but it didn't go forward largely due to finances but perhaps with central funding it could have happened. The ECML electrified at 1500v DC before 1939 anyone?

[Compound2632]

I'm not sure nationalisation in 1923 would have seen the appointment of a single all-powerful CME. The management of the nationalised railway would have been dominated by people from the two largest companies, the LNWR and the Midland, and I can imagine that a management structure very like that of the LMS would have been adopted. (As indeed happened in 1948.) On the locomotive side, that would have resulted in a division between operating and design sides of the locomotive department. The Woolwich mogul perhaps points in the direction of design by committee - in that case the ARLE - brining together best practice from Swindon, Derby, and elsewhere. Before anyone leaps in to condemn "design by committee" it's worth noting (a) that the Woolwich mogul was a very successful and forward-looking design and (b) by this time, indeed for many years, most locomotives were the product of the collaborative effort of a drawing office staff. 

 

That said, my impression is that Richard Maunsell would have been a good choice for the top job - he seems to have had the political skills the job would need without being an overbearing personality or too particularly associated with one design tradition - except perhaps that of Inchicore and Horwich, a well-trodden path.

Edited July 29, 2021 by Compound2632

[DavidB-AU]

Winston Churchill spoke in favour of nationalising the railways in 1918, having seen how well they did under the REC during the war. The Ways and Communications Bill of 1919 actually included powers of State purchase, but Andrew Bonar Law opposed it and it was dropped from the Bill. Some historians have theorised that the Conservatives were spooked by Red Clydeside, fearing a Communist revolution in Scotland as this was only ~15 months after the Russian Revolution. The Big Four was a compromise.

 

Cheers

David

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

18 hours ago, ScottishRailFanatic said:

“Night of the Living Bread”

A joke Q1 0-8-0T, just to make it look even more like a bread loaf on wheels!

If anyone can find a use for it you’ll get a proverbial medal

 

The entire class dumped into the sea at Dawlish to form a new seawall to protect the GWR

 

I claim my medal!

[Michael Edge]

20 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

 

Yes, I know it's not a new idea as it has cropped up in various places on RMweb.  I don't recall seeing that one before though.  I wonder what the proposed work was? 

 

A. J. Powell proposed a rather smaller 2-8-4t for heavy suburban work, based on redundant early Black Five boilers released by using the frames of the Black Fives in building a class of 4-6-2+2-6-4 Garrats for the northern end of the WCML.  Bogies for the 2-8-4t would be redundant from Fowler 2-6-4t's converted to 2-6-0 tender locos and leading trucks from Fowler 2-6-2t's which would just be redundant.

I don't think there was any work for it which might be why it was not built. The LMS didn't really go in for big freight tank locos, the LNW 0-8-4Ts being one exception but they mostly worked in South Wales. Colliery trip working would have been the most likely but this ended up in the hands of 8F 2-8-0s with much greater water capacity, after the pre-grouping 0-8-0s had gone.