Imaginary Locomotives

[DenysW]

Shays (the commonest) have the boiler offset and have vertical cylinders as the counter-weight. The rest are symmetrical, with features like V-arrangement cylinders.

 

I think AlfaZagato has hit the nail on the head: the technology did not exist to change gear while the loco was in motion, with the gearing on the steam turbine locomotives possibly providing a way forward. But having ridden in cars before synchromesh became universal, I doubt the couplings on railway wagons would have survived a rough gear change.

[sir douglas]

the 3 main types in the US are Shay, Heisler and Climax, as already said the shays are the ones with off set boilers, the Heiselers have the V arrangement under the boiler while the Climax has "ordinary" positioned inclined cylinders

[PhilJ W]

Traction engines usually have two gears or sometimes even three but have to stop to change gear, even those built in the first quarter of the twentieth century.  

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

Whichever way you do it, gears, rods, etc steam-mechanical was an evolutionary dead end.  Steam-electric would have been the way forward!

 

 

The C&O #500

 

 

N&W #2300

Edited December 20, 2021 by Dr Gerbil-Fritters

[The Johnster]

5 hours ago, DenysW said:

But having ridden in cars before synchromesh became universal, I doubt the couplings on railway wagons would have survived a rough gear change.

It was synchromesh that enabled the size of lorries to increase to the articulated behemoths of the motorway age, indeed, this is symbiotic, each development feeding into the other.  I am old enough to have learned double declutching as a gear changing technique, though few cars needed it by the time I learned to drive in 1970.  Changing gears on 1st generation dmus was a bit of an art as well, and pretty cutting (gear cutting?) edge in 1954 when the first sets went into service.

[whart57]

A few cars c1970 still required a double declutch to change from 2nd gear down to first, which, given you'd only ever want to do that going up a steep hill, could be a bit hairy. The drive up from St Margaret's Bay in Kent was where I made a hash of that. OK, you can stop and start again, but I'd stalled the engine and on the car in question the fuel pump wasn't strong enough to lift fuel from the tank when you were on a 1 in 6.

 

My other double declutch adventures were when driving tractors with a trailer stacked with straw on the back. Those 1970s tractors didn't have synchromesh gear boxes, and nor did they have good brakes. There was a steep hill leading down to the crossroads where we had to turn right to get to the farm yard. You had to go down in low gear but that meant stopping at the top to change down. Do that though and you were going at 4 mph down the not so steep bits as well. If you felt confident though you could double declutch into a lower gear when you got to the top of the 1 in 10. If you made a hash of it though you were off down the hill out of control and hoping there was nothing at the cross roads stopping you going straight on onto a level bit where your brakes might work. You didn't want to take the corner because you'd tip your load into the ditch and worst case - the boss did it - turn the tractor over.

[The Johnster]

My first car was a 100E Ford Pop, 3 forward gears with synchro but you were chancing it if you didn't double declutch going down from 2nd to 1st, which, as you say, usually happens on a steep hil (we've got plenty of those in South Wales) and needs to be done quickly and neatly to preserve as much forward momentum as possible.  Caerphilly mountain was best dealt with by stopping at the bottom, changing into first, and taking your time, and stopping at the top for a hot dog in the car park while she cooled down a bit.  If you had passengers, you were best avoiding the double arrow hills on the OS map.  It is perhaps as well that, at that time, I had not discovered the Abergwesyn Pass!

 

Another delight of this car was the vacuum powered windscreen wipers, which you could control the speed of with a knob.  When I say 'control', this was a moveable feast at best, because the wipers slowed down if you were accellerating (another term which seems wrong to use in connection with a 100E Pop) and went mad on the overrun or if you were coming down a hill.  Climbing in heavy rain was not a good idea...

 

 

[PhilJ W]

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

My first car was a 100E Ford Pop, 3 forward gears with synchro but you were chancing it if you didn't double declutch going down from 2nd to 1st, which, as you say, usually happens on a steep hil (we've got plenty of those in South Wales) and needs to be done quickly and neatly to preserve as much forward momentum as possible.  Caerphilly mountain was best dealt with by stopping at the bottom, changing into first, and taking your time, and stopping at the top for a hot dog in the car park while she cooled down a bit.  If you had passengers, you were best avoiding the double arrow hills on the OS map.  It is perhaps as well that, at that time, I had not discovered the Abergwesyn Pass!

 

Another delight of this car was the vacuum powered windscreen wipers, which you could control the speed of with a knob.  When I say 'control', this was a moveable feast at best, because the wipers slowed down if you were accellerating (another term which seems wrong to use in connection with a 100E Pop) and went mad on the overrun or if you were coming down a hill.  Climbing in heavy rain was not a good idea...

Snap! My first car was also a 100E Popular, 760 BUC. In 1972 my sister got married and I was tasked with driving down to St. Leonards to collect my grandparents and bring them back to Romford where we lived. Even today the A21 despite fifty years improvements is still very hilly. I don't think I exceeded more than 40 mph on the entire journey.

[The Johnster]

Mine would work up to 50 if you gave it enough time, but any more than that resulted in a lot oil smoke from the exhaust.  The head gasket failed, and, with the help of a mechanic neighbour I replaced it, learning a lot in the process, but the car was just the same afterwards.  Traded it in for a 105E anglia estate, which lasted me a good few years.  This would go up Caerphilly mountain in second…

[PhilJ W]

Mine burnt out a piston so I had to strip the engine down and replace the piston, in fact I had to replace two pistons as another was on the way out. It eventually failed its MoT and was also replaced by an Anglia estate but a 1200 super version. My dad had been a driver/mechanic in the army and he showed me what to do.

[AlfaZagato]

Perpetuating the current drift, everything I've had was full synchro or auto.   Thought Muncie 3-speed in my '78 Chevy truck bore no fools.

 

 

Drifting back, would any of the known 'Standard' parts amongst the Big 4 or BR have worked on the gaggle of NG lines that were absorbed?  

[rodent279]

You need to double de-clutch to go into 1st in a Minor, but the 1098 at least is a fairly torquey beast. I've had no problem with it on Porlock Hill, or on the steep hills leading to Grosmont station from the Moors.

Edited December 21, 2021 by rodent279

[The Johnster]

57 minutes ago, AlfaZagato said:

 

Drifting back, would any of the known 'Standard' parts amongst the Big 4 or BR have worked on the gaggle of NG lines that were absorbed?  

TTBOMK, only two of the narrow gauge lines survived to be operated by BR, via the GW, were functioning at the time, the Vale of Rheidol and the Welshpool & Llanfair.  These had been absorbed into the GW at the grouping, and Swindon had taken on the overhauling of the VoR's locos, 'rebuilding' (actually building a completely new locomotive) one of them.  The W&L's locos were dealt with at Oswestry.  Both works would have carried a stock of spares for the locos, but (again TTBOMK) very little of the standard gauge stuff would have been of any use on them.  Bits and pieces for the rolling stock would have been kept on the railways concerned.  The VoR had GW Swindon built coaches, and these had GW standard coach fittings such as door handles and hinges. 

 

Of the other 3 of the Big 4, the Southern absorbed the Lynton & Barnstaple and ISTR that the LMS took on the Leek & Manifold, but these lines were closed in the years between the Grouping and WW2, and thus were not passed to BR.  There were also standard gauge light railways, some of which did survive into BR ownership.

 

The Talyllyn and the Festiniog (period spelling) had retained their independence at the Grouping, and the Festiniog, while still, in theory, trading and a functioning company, was not operating any services and rapidly degenerating into an inoperable state.  The Talyllyn ceased running in 1951, and, with the input of Tom Rolt and his associates, became the first 'preserved' railway, the Festiniog following in 1954.  Had the Festiniog been absorbed by the GW or the LMS in 1923, and had it been operating in 1948, it would presumably have become part of BR, but with the stock in poor condition and no beauty spot at the terminus to compare with Devil's Bridge, I would seriously doubt that it could have remained in existence for long without the slate traffic.

 

[rodent279]

29 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

The Talyllyn and the Festiniog (period spelling) had retained their independence at the Grouping

Why was that? How did they manage to escape grouping, while the Tallylyn and the VoR didn't?

(Didn't the Corris also become part of the GWR?)

[PhilJ W]

The Corris became part of GWR but was closed  when the bridge at Machynlleth was washed away by floods.

[JimC]

8 minutes ago, PhilJ W said:

The Corris became part of GWR 

But not at the grouping. According to RCTS the Corris was owned by a Bristol based tram company at the time of the grouping, and tram companies weren't grouped. The Tram co was later bought by Crosville Motor Co, and then some complicated dealings went on which ended up with Crosville being owned by the LMS and the Corris by the GWR, in the midst of all sorts of other deals with bus companies, LMS and GWR going on that I can't be bothered to work out!

[Jeremy Cumberland]

1 hour ago, rodent279 said:

Why was that? How did they manage to escape grouping, while the Tallylyn and the VoR didn't?

(Didn't the Corris also become part of the GWR?)

There were a large number of light railways that were not absorbed at the Grouping. Most of Colonel Stephens's railways remained independent, for example.

 

I don't think any narrow gauge lines were actually grouped, as such. Only the Lynon & Barnstaple went from being fully independent to "Big Four", but it was purchased by the Southern and wasn't part of the 1921 Raiwalys Act.  The Welshpool & Llanfair was already being operated by the Cambrian, as was the Leek and Manifold by the North Staffordshire, and the Vale of Rheidol was already fully owned by the Cambrian. The Corris was part of a later purchase by the Great Western, as already mentioned, and apart from works lines, I think all the other narrow gauge railways remained independent.

 

The Corris survived into Nationalisation and was operated by British Railways, but only until 20 August 1948. It would almost certainly have closed even without the flood damage.

[tythatguy1312]

2 hours ago, Jeremy C said:

It would almost certainly have closed even without the flood damage.

I've heard of more extreme railway survivals, although a token passenger service by 2 surprisingly functional saddle tanks is pretty damning for a railway, although I am now intrigued by the continued independence of the Talyllyn railway. You'd think a passenger carrying railway would be a candidate for nationalisation, even if passengers were the only thing they had left.

Edited December 21, 2021 by tythatguy1312

[rodent279]

There can't have been much in the way of shareholder compensation due, if it was in such a parlous state.

[whart57]

12 hours ago, The Johnster said:

TTBOMK, only two of the narrow gauge lines survived to be operated by BR, via the GW, were functioning at the time, the Vale of Rheidol and the Welshpool & Llanfair.  These had been absorbed into the GW at the grouping, and Swindon had taken on the overhauling of the VoR's locos, 'rebuilding' (actually building a completely new locomotive) one of them.  The W&L's locos were dealt with at Oswestry.

 

 

Both W&L locomotives were given the Swindon treatment

 

Before:

 

After:

 

Lovely engines, I'd love to see someone like Rapido do a On16.5 version of them

 

Edited December 21, 2021 by whart57

[Compound2632]

12 hours ago, The Johnster said:

TTBOMK, only two of the narrow gauge lines survived to be operated by BR, via the GW, were functioning at the time, the Vale of Rheidol and the Welshpool & Llanfair.  These had been absorbed into the GW at the grouping, and Swindon had taken on the overhauling of the VoR's locos, 'rebuilding' (actually building a completely new locomotive) one of them.  The W&L's locos were dealt with at Oswestry.  Both works would have carried a stock of spares for the locos, but (again TTBOMK) very little of the standard gauge stuff would have been of any use on them.  Bits and pieces for the rolling stock would have been kept on the railways concerned.  The VoR had GW Swindon built coaches, and these had GW standard coach fittings such as door handles and hinges. 

 

Of the other 3 of the Big 4, the Southern absorbed the Lynton & Barnstaple and ISTR that the LMS took on the Leek & Manifold, but these lines were closed in the years between the Grouping and WW2, and thus were not passed to BR.  There were also standard gauge light railways, some of which did survive into BR ownership.

 

The Vale of Rheidol had been bought by the Cambrian in 1913, which is how it came to pass into the hands of the Great Western at Grouping. Likewise the Leek & Manifold was worked by the North Staffordshire and then the LMS - I'm unsure whether it formally became the property of either. Of course the LMS was the owner of an extensive narrow-gauge system, and joint owner of even more, in Ireland.

 

So, a narrow-gauge railway that was already part of a pre-grouping company inevitably passed to a grouping company and hence, if it survived long enough, BR.

 

The Lynton & Barnstaple case is unusual. Perhaps the proprietors were pleading for it to be taken off their hands...

[rodent279]

54 minutes ago, whart57 said:

 

Both W&L locomotives were given the Swindon treatment

 

Before:

 

After:

 

Lovely engines, I'd love to see someone like Rapido do a On16.5 version of them

 

Why has it gained a brass safety valve cover if Swindon didn't see fit to do it?

[jcm@gwr]

4 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

Why has it gained a brass safety valve cover if Swindon didn't see fit to do it?

 

Confused? Swindon did do it, that's what the 2 pictures show!

[rodent279]

17 minutes ago, jcm@gwr said:

 

Confused? Swindon did do it, that's what the 2 pictures show!

Ah, I see now it was done later in life, but before closure, as this photo shows:-

 

 

 

I'm surprised they didn't go the whole hog and fit inside valve gear, a taper boiler and a crosshead vacuum pump!

[whart57]

17 minutes ago, jcm@gwr said:

 

Confused? Swindon did do it, that's what the 2 pictures show!

 

This leads to another thought. What if in 1923 the Grouping was done differently, done more along the lines of later BR and franchise dividings up of the network.

 

If, say, the government created a London and Home Counties Railway out of the SECR, LBSCR, GER, Metropolitan and the suburban lines of the LSWR and the lines going north. And then the rest of the LSWR was grouped with the Great Western.

 

Then we could imagine all those Drummonds and Uries getting Swindonised.

 

OK, I've triggered a fatwa now ...........