Imaginary Locomotives

[Corbs]

‘Locomotive Panaorama’ by E.S.Cox is a really good read especially for fans of ‘neverwazzas’. I boshed Volume I in 2 days and am getting my teeth stuck in to Vol.II now.

Related to recent conversations here’s a diagram of the 4-6-4. Cox explains smaller wheels than the Duchess, no combustion chamber as Gibbo mentioned above, in order to get the biggest boiler they could possibly achieve. Note mechanical stoker, this design was considered impossible without one. Streamlining retained. Designed in anticipation of domestic air travel in the UK.

 

Of particular interest to me was this 0-6-0 (here classed as 2F) of which a drawing has appeared in this thread previously. I understand that this was discussed toward the end of Stanier’s time and had it happened would have appeared during Fairburn or Ivatt’s tenure.

It seems that it was a response to demands from the operating department, and sounds like had they had their way, more Fowler 4Fs would have been built.

 

This is the one I've posted before:

 

This one’s a bit of a cheeky inclusion in this thread but it’s been mentioned. (CORRECTION) one of only two surviving photos of the Stanier 2-6-0 with GWR style safety valve bonnet. I’ve heard many different versions of this story, but Cox tells it as the drawings for this and the 4-6-2 had been made with the ‘coffee pot’, Stanier saw the drawings and asked for the coffee pot to be replaced, which they did, buy the drawing for the 2-6-0 which went to production had not had the offending item removed, and Stanier was not too pleased about it. Hence the destruction of nearly all images of the loco pre-modification.

 

 

 

Edited February 15, 2019 by Corbs
flubber

[Satan's Goldfish]

1 hour ago, Flying Pig said:

 

Close to A. J. Powell's heavy 2-8-2 which he rated at 7P9F, 36,000lbs using a Britannia boiler and slightly modified cylinders. Estimated axle weight of just 17 tons and 5' 6" coupled wheels to reuse parts from the Stanier 2-6-0s.

 

Brit with 5'6" drivers you say...

 

 

Sorry. they are just slightly shrunk black 5 wheels again to a guestimate size as I couldn't find a suitable pic of a 2-6-0 to chop up. I like the slanty cylinders though compared to those on DoG.

[melmerby]

3 hours ago, Corbs said:

This one’s a bit of a cheeky inclusion in this thread but it’s been mentioned. The only surviving photo of the Stanier 2-6-0 with GWR style safety valve bonnet.

No it's not.

There is a much better picture in "Illustrated history of LMS Locomotives Vol 5" page 53

 

 

 

[Corbs]

Ah! Apologies, I was going off Mr Cox's description but he was writing that in the late 1960s so may not have been privy to the other one, which I guess was first published in 1989?

[melmerby]

22 minutes ago, Corbs said:

Ah! Apologies, I was going off Mr Cox's description but he was writing that in the late 1960s so may not have been privy to the other one, which I guess was first published in 1989?

That's the date of the book.

I wonder where E & J got the picture from, It's credited to "Author's Collection"

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

4 hours ago, Satan's Goldfish said:

 

Brit with 5'6" drivers you say...

 

 

Sorry. they are just slightly shrunk black 5 wheels again to a guestimate size as I couldn't find a suitable pic of a 2-6-0 to chop up. I like the slanty cylinders though compared to those on DoG.

 

 

9F boiler, and a bit more room to breathe around the front end... for the life of me I can't recall doing this one, so perhaps it's someone else's work...

 

 

[Corbs]

Let's not forget RedgateModelling's own vision of this, probably the most accurate based on the diagram in Locomotive Panorama and elsewhere.

[Flying Pig]

4 hours ago, Satan's Goldfish said:

 

Brit with 5'6" drivers you say...

 

 

Sorry. they are just slightly shrunk black 5 wheels again to a guestimate size as I couldn't find a suitable pic of a 2-6-0 to chop up. I like the slanty cylinders though compared to those on DoG.

 

That looks very like Powell's diagram (except it should have Ivatt not Riddles details and styling).  If you feel like counting pixels, the coupled wheel spacing should be 6' 1" between each set. Your front truck is a bit shorter - it's 9' between front coupled axle and pony axle in the diagram.

 

BTW the same book (Living with London Midland Locomotives)  also proposes a light 2-8-2 based on the Clan boiler with 5' 3" drivers and axle loads around 15.5tons for weight limited routes along with numerous other what-if classes.  

[mccormackpj]

For those who are at a loose end, here's a link to the paper ES Cox presented to the Institute of Loco Engineers in 1946, which has been one of the primary sources for all the above delightful speculations and discussions. Cox repeated a fair amount of this in Locomotive Panorama Vol.1, but it's interesting to see the original paper and to read the responses from ILE members, both well-known and not so. Plenty of drawings, diagrams, tables, facts, interpretations and opinions to be chewed on!
http://www.lyrs.org.uk/images/uploads/Paper_-_Cox_1946_-_I.Loco.E_-_A_Modern_Loco_History,_LMS_1923_to_1932.pdf

[Gibbo675]

5 hours ago, mccormackpj said:

For those who are at a loose end, here's a link to the paper ES Cox presented to the Institute of Loco Engineers in 1946, which has been one of the primary sources for all the above delightful speculations and discussions. Cox repeated a fair amount of this in Locomotive Panorama Vol.1, but it's interesting to see the original paper and to read the responses from ILE members, both well-known and not so. Plenty of drawings, diagrams, tables, facts, interpretations and opinions to be chewed on!
http://www.lyrs.org.uk/images/uploads/Paper_-_Cox_1946_-_I.Loco.E_-_A_Modern_Loco_History,_LMS_1923_to_1932.pdf

Hi There,

 

Thanks for the above post, an informative piece and a most interesting read. What I find astounding is that the paper would have been written in Cox's own time as he would likely have been too busy when at the works.

 

Gibbo.

[richard i]

I want a Fowler pacific.

oh, say it thee times, click your heels together and it will be so.

 

no didn’t work, looks like I will have to work it out of a kit bash. The wheel dimensions , spacing don’t look too far off from an A3 . I must go and consult the books. 

Richard

[Gibbo675]

25 minutes ago, richard i said:

I want a Fowler pacific.

oh, say it thee times, click your heels together and it will be so.

 

no didn’t work, looks like I will have to work it out of a kit bash. The wheel dimensions , spacing don’t look too far off from an A3 . I must go and consult the books. 

Richard

Hi Richard,

 

What is not obvious from the side elevation is that the locomotive was to have had a round topped fire box, as the L&Y 2-10-0 and the LMS 2-8-2 were to have had also. The tenders, should new ones have been built, may well have been of the style that the first two Stanier Pacifics received those being full cab width and mounted on the longer Stanier type chassis but with the Fowler side profile to them.

 

Show us the photos when you've finished !

 

Gibbo.

[RLBH]

The 9F boilered 4-8-2 looks wrong; the firebox is well clear of the trailing truck. That suggests to me that a 9F-boilered 4-8-0 might look good, though - firebox over the rear drivers in similar fashion to the 2-10-0 incarnation.

 

The Fowler compound Pacific and Mikado look like handsome machines, a shame about their design shortcomings of course. A very interesting comparison to the more or less contemporary LNER A3 and P1, designed for similar work and of similar size. They actually seem to have high enough boiler pressure to make compounding worthwhile!

 

Cox comments in discussion (of express passenger 4-8-0s) that 32 square feet is about the limit for a narrow firebox under British conditions. I'd be intrigued to find out how Horwich proposed to fire a 50 square foot grate on the 2-10-0 between the frames without the benefit of a mechanical stoker.

[Niels]

1 hour ago, RLBH said:

 That suggests to me that a 9F-boilered 4-8-0 might look good, though - firebox over the rear drivers in similar fashion to the 2-10-0 incarnation.

 

Cox comments in discussion (of express passenger 4-8-0s) that 32 square feet is about the limit for a narrow firebox under British conditions. I'd be intrigued to find out how Horwich proposed to fire a 50 square foot grate on the 2-10-0 between the frames without the benefit of a mechanical stoker.

 

 

The Cox paper is interesting as it includes details of the Caledonian 60 class.

 

https://www.national-preservation.com/threads/c-r-pickersgill-hughes-class-60-greybacks.1168066/

 

 

 

 

 

 

The class had NO frame cracks after many years duty and very low repair costs.

But maybe to wide over cylinders for use in England

 

 

 

 

A 9F based 4-8-0

http://

 

The Hughes 2-10-0 proposal skech shows a wide firebox over the driving wheels.

 

 

Edited February 16, 2019 by Niels

[Michael Edge]

On 16/02/2019 at 18:06, Gibbo675 said:

Hi Richard,

 

What is not obvious from the side elevation is that the locomotive was to have had a round topped fire box, as the L&Y 2-10-0 and the LMS 2-8-2 were to have had also. The tenders, should new ones have been built, may well have been of the style that the first two Stanier Pacifics received those being full cab width and mounted on the longer Stanier type chassis but with the Fowler side profile to them.

 

Show us the photos when you've finished !

 

Gibbo.

What makes you think they would have been round top fireboxes? Derby and Horwich had produced nothing but Belpaire boxes for years when this proposal was drawn.

[Gibbo675]

2 hours ago, Michael Edge said:

What makes you think they would have been round top fireboxes? Derby and Horwich had produced nothing but Belpaire boxes for years when this proposal was drawn.

Hi Michael,

 

The boilers for the proposed Fowler 4-6-2 and 2-8-2 were to have been developed from the proposed L&Y 2-10-0 which is known to have had a round top fire box design.

If you look at the weight diagram you will see that the fire box top is almost the same height as the cab roof and the dome with the step up from the diameter of the boiler barrel, therefore if you square off the top of the firebox then the shoulders of the firebox would be out of gauge if it was given a square Derby style. It would seem to me that the boiler would have looked like a Gresley boiler with a step in section between the boiler barrel and the firebox.

If there were shoulders to the top of the fire box then I would suggest that they would be rounded off in a similar way to the fire box of 6399 Fury, also should you look at diagrams of the original Royal Scots, the top of the fire box is much lower in comparison for a locomotive designed to the same loading gauge and maximum height, the shoulders of the fireboxes of these locomotives was only just within the loading gauge at the front end.

The shape of the later Stanier Pacifics had very much more curved profile to their side sheets following the design practice of Swindon rather than the rectilinear shapes produced by either Derby or Horwich at that time. 

 

An end elevation would be useful all the same, but then we would have nothing to talk about !

 

Gibbo.

[Gibbo675]

H Folks,

 

I have found this after looking through various books, it is from page 9 of Fowler Locomotives by Brian Haresnape:

 

 

An interesting detail also on the same page is that in January 1923 the LMS inherited 10316 steam locomotives of 393 different types.

 

Gibbo.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

The Fowler compound pacific could have been a very good thing. Hard to assess now: would it have had a boiler with the free steaming  of the Fowler 2-6-4T or 0-8-0? Likewise the adequate frame strength,  bearing area and valve events of the better early designs? If we make the happy assumptions that these aspects were got right it would have given the infant LMS a real chance to go ahead and drop the narrow firebox 4-6-0 for anything over class 5 express work. Essentially what Riddles would do, approximately twenty five years on...

[scots region]

50 minutes ago, Gibbo675 said:

H Folks,

 

I have found this after looking through various books, it is from page 9 of Fowler Locomotives by Brian Haresnape:

 

 

An interesting detail also on the same page is that in January 1923 the LMS inherited 10316 steam locomotives of 393 different types.

 

Gibbo.

 

I had always thought that the firebox was supposed to be a Belpair one, but a quick consultation of the relevant drawing in my copy of Locomotives Panorama revelies that no, the firebox was indeed meant to be round.

[Corbs]

Jebus! I think we lucked out in real life. Looks like the Hughes 4-6-0 and a Manning Wardle industrial had an illegitimate child!

[pH]

On 16/02/2019 at 12:30, Niels said:

The Cox paper is interesting as it includes details of the Caledonian 60 class.

 

https://www.national-preservation.com/threads/c-r-pickersgill-hughes-class-60-greybacks.1168066/

 

The class had NO frame cracks after many years duty and very low repair costs.

 

 

 

That is interesting, since the front end seemed to be very bendy:

 

https://goo.gl/images/Rck1mQ

 

https://railway-photography.smugmug.com/LMS-Scotland/19141923-CR-William-Pickersgil/Pickersgill-Tender-Locomotives/CR-Pickersgill-class-60-4-6-0-LMS-Hughes-further-developed/i-jjRz3d8/A

 

https://goo.gl/images/9Y5jw2

 

(and I've seen pictures showing worse.)

[Compound2632]

I think that's just symptomatic of an inability to stop rather than any deficiency in going.

[Joseph_Pestell]

On 15/02/2019 at 12:45, Satan's Goldfish said:

 

Brit with 5'6" drivers you say...

 

 

Sorry. they are just slightly shrunk black 5 wheels again to a guestimate size as I couldn't find a suitable pic of a 2-6-0 to chop up. I like the slanty cylinders though compared to those on DoG.

 

I am really enjoying this thread.

 

Somewhere, in my many boxes of railway stuff, there is an old Triang-Hornby Britannia. I think that I must find it and have a go at building this. Such a great looking loco.

[PhilJ W]

Bump.

[richard i]

16 hours ago, Corbs said:

Jebus! I think we lucked out in real life. Looks like the Hughes 4-6-0 and a Manning Wardle industrial had an illegitimate child!

Yes but that gives us the start. A princess bottom a crab top and tender and scratch the rest.