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Imaginary Locomotives


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The Deltics, IIRC, were restricted to a top speed of 100mph (in theory, I mean; practice was, er, different), as were the 37s and 50s that used the same bogies and traction motors.  The B4 bogies were good for 100mph, as were Commonwealth bogies, and mk1 stock that had been refurbished with them were stencilled on the ends as suitable for that speed.  Mk1s with the older B1 bogie were speed restricted to 90mph (again, practice might be different).  

 

The driving trailer with the Deltic cab is unlikely, tbh, as it does not make the best use of driver visibility that a dmu style cab provides, and at this period I would expect something like a Clacton electric or Swindon 4-car Inter City type of front, or possibly Transpennine wrap around window.  And there seems to me to be wasted space in the nose.

 

The load is not a good use of the Deltic's power, and the expense of running these prima donna locos demanded cost efficient use.  Acceleration could be fierce, providing the Deltic could keep it's feet and there was no wheelslip, and of course for any distance catering vehicles need to be included; I reckon a 10 coach set is more likely and if any of it is to the mk2 profile the whole train would have been, perhaps in style something like the mk2 based demus produced for Northern Ireland.  This renders the maroon livery unlikely, lovely though it looks, and blue/grey more probable.  

 

Such a train could have dispensed with the need for the DP2 based 50s on the WCML, and ended up replacing Westerns on the WR, but the WCML required 110mph running.

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21 hours ago, The Johnster said:

The load is not a good use of the Deltic's power, and the expense of running these prima donna locos demanded cost efficient use.  Acceleration could be fierce, providing the Deltic could keep it's feet and there was no wheelslip, and of course for any distance catering vehicles need to be included; I reckon a 10 coach set is more likely and if any of it is to the mk2 profile the whole train would have been, perhaps in style something like the mk2 based demus produced for Northern Ireland.  This renders the maroon livery unlikely, lovely though it looks, and blue/grey more probable.  

I rather like a Deltic/Blue Pullman/HST hybrid with a powe car at either end. 100mph looks to be easy with 10 cars, probable with 11, and may be achievable with 12.

 

One 1,800 hp Deltic in each power car with a Voith transmission for lighter weight. Reckon on about 1,200hp at the rail. Because it's a multiple unit, and the diesel-electrics don't dominate yet, this makes sense - and I'm not a diesel-hydraulic fan. Probably need an auxiliary power takeoff for train supply to run air conditioning, but that's solvable. By my reckoning, each power car comes in at 65 tons 5 cwt.

 

I've never decided what the cabs should look like, though I like the idea of an 'Express Multiple Unit' livery of green and cream.

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1 hour ago, RLBH said:

 

I've never decided what the cabs should look like, though I like the idea of an 'Express Multiple Unit' livery of green and cream.

Now there's another 'imaginary' subject, liveries. I think that instead of Rail Blue they should have kept the maroon which would have gone well with Rail Grey. The blue/grey combination allways seemed 'cold' to my eye. 

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23 hours ago, The Johnster said:

The Deltics, IIRC, were restricted to a top speed of 100mph (in theory, I mean; practice was, er, different),

Weren't the Deltics originally restricted to 100mph by the line speed?

IIRC they were officially allowed to 110mph after line speeds had been raised.

 

EDIT 55008 reached 125mph in Feb 1978 as part of a "special" run.

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AFAIK the first 110mph locos were the 87s, which could not legitimately achieve that speed in service until they had been given mk2 stock to haul; all mk2 coaches and mk1s fitted with B4 or Commonwealth bogies were speed restricted to 100mph.  100mph was the overall line speed top limit nationwide until the introduction of the HSTs on the ECML and WR, and even then the limit stayed at 90mph for everything except HSTs with two locomen in the cab and both headlights working for some time.  The WCML was upgraded to 110mph in association with the completion of the Weaver Jc-Motherwll electrification, and IIRC class 86 with 87 bogies were also permitted 110mph.

 

Line speed on the WR for non-HST traffic was still 90mph, and the 75mph limit inside the Severn Tunnel was relaxed to 90mph for HSTs only.  I timed a Sunday morning Cardiff-Paddington train of 8 mixed mk1 and 2 coaches hauled by a 50 (can't remember which one) which ran via Gloucester and on this particular day was diverted via Westerleigh due to work in Sapperton Tunnel so had time to make up, and, with a companion verifying the readings, recorded 114mph between Cholesly and Moulsford, and Goring, the fastest ever loco hauled train I ever experienced.  I was riding in the leading coach, a mk1 BCK with Commonwealth bogies, and the ride was excellent; it was a bit noisy, though!  This would have been about 1983.

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17 hours ago, jf2682 said:

114 mph behind a class 50 is really hot!  The driver would certainly have had nothing on the dial but Smiths!

I was on a late-running special behind the preserved Western a few years ago and we were certainly the wrong side of 90mph between Swindon and Didcot.

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Now I know the GWR was wedded to just 2 sets of valve gear for it's steam locos but what if they had tried a 3 cylinder mixed traffic loco?

 

Take a Hall or Grange, fit Castle cylinders outside operated by rockers from inside Walschaerts, as normal, and a third similar inside cylinder driven from a derived motion a là Holcroft.

A nice powerful mixed traffic loco capable of use on restricted width routes, where a Grange couldn't go.

 

Would it be practical?

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4 hours ago, Corbs said:

Nic Goodrich did this photoshop of a Bagnall built for the London Underground - I think it suits it! 

(posted on the British What-If & Never-Were Locomotives FB group)

499330922_nicgoodrichphotoshop.jpg.7a3aac942c03d14f35569f41d7ff37d2.jpg

This of course opens up the possibility of A38 stock for Par harbour...

 

2 hours ago, melmerby said:

Now I know the GWR was wedded to just 2 sets of valve gear for it's steam locos but what if they had tried a 3 cylinder mixed traffic loco?

 

Take a Hall or Grange, fit Castle cylinders outside operated by rockers from inside Walschaerts, as normal, and a third similar inside cylinder driven from a derived motion a là Holcroft.

A nice powerful mixed traffic loco capable of use on restricted width routes, where a Grange couldn't go.

 

Would it be practical?

Yeah, why not.  But the problem that prevented Granges going where they couldn't was all-up weight, restricting them to red routes, which would have been worsened with 3 cylinders. Manors and 43xx, which could go where that Granges couldn't, were the same width over cylinders.

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12 hours ago, melmerby said:

... Take a Hall or Grange, fit Castle cylinders outside operated by rockers from inside Walschaerts, as normal, and a third similar inside cylinder driven from a derived motion a là Holcroft...Would it be practical?

I think the devil would be in the detail. I don't see any fundamental reason why a Star chassis couldn't be modified for smaller wheels, a single inside cylinder and derived gear. Whether you'd actually end up with fewer bearings to maintain than a 4 cylinder locomotive is an interesting question, which would take a skilled designer to answer. It seems to me there would be a lot of swings and roundabouts in the design.

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5 hours ago, AlfaZagato said:

I think if the Counties had been 4-cylinder, they would have ridden better, and therefore been a better success.

They were intended to be simpler and therefore less costly to manufacture/maintain than a Castle but doing similar work.

But as you say a Castle with 6' 3" wheels would have been someting else

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16 hours ago, melmerby said:

They were intended to be simpler and therefore less costly to manufacture/maintain than a Castle but doing similar work.

But as you say a Castle with 6' 3" wheels would have been someting else

I'm not certain we are speaking of the same Counties?   I know the Churchward County was retired due to poor running.    I don't know much about Hawksworth's Counties.

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On 22/11/2019 at 14:49, PhilJ W said:

Now there's another 'imaginary' subject, liveries. I think that instead of Rail Blue they should have kept the maroon which would have gone well with Rail Grey. The blue/grey combination allways seemed 'cold' to my eye. 

 

Imaginary (photoshop!) Liveries thread right here: 

 

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4 hours ago, AlfaZagato said:

I'm not certain we are speaking of the same Counties?   I know the Churchward County was retired due to poor running.    I don't know much about Hawksworth's Counties.

 

The Churchward Counties were "cut down" Saints, for use on certain joint lines where the LNWR specifically prohibited the use of 4-6-0s.  As soon as the prohibition was lifted the reason for keeping them was gone and they were taken out of service.

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4 hours ago, AlfaZagato said:

I'm not certain we are speaking of the same Counties?   I know the Churchward County was retired due to poor running.    I don't know much about Hawksworth's Counties.

We were talking 4-6-0s so I assumed Hawksworth's Counties which were nothing more than a uprated, Modified Hall and were the last of the "Saint" line of 4-6-0 locos.

They used a boiler derived from a Stanier 8F pressed to 280psi and 6' 3" wheels (a new departure for Swindon), with a TE close to a Castle.

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6 hours ago, AlfaZagato said:

I'm not certain we are speaking of the same Counties?   I know the Churchward County was retired due to poor running.    I don't know much about Hawksworth's Counties.

 

1 hour ago, Hroth said:

 

The Churchward Counties were "cut down" Saints, for use on certain joint lines where the LNWR specifically prohibited the use of 4-6-0s.  As soon as the prohibition was lifted the reason for keeping them was gone and they were taken out of service.


I think both these are a little overstated.

 

The GWR took all their large wheeled 4-4-0s out of service between 1927 and 1933. There were 94 outside frame 4-4-0s of various classes, and the 40 Counties. It was surely a policy decision, since at the same time other lines were still building new 4-4-0s.  Even the outside frame locomotives still had a lot of life left, since by and large the equivalent outside frame 2-6-0s lasted another 15 years. 

At the time the first (of 40) Counties were built the 4-4-0 was the standard British express locomotive, and even the GWR only had a handful of 4-6-0s. The weight limit on the LNWR viaduct was of course a consideration, but hardly justified a class of 40.


Yes, the 4-4-0 Counties were notorious rough riders, and rather heavy on maintenance for that reason, which wouldn't have endeared them to the Collett/Hannington/Cook regime, but their replacements were Halls. 
 

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4 minutes ago, JimC said:

The GWR took all their large wheeled 4-4-0s out of service between 1927 and 1933. There were 94 outside frame 4-4-0s of various classes, and the 40 Counties. It was surely a policy decision, since at the same time other lines were still building new 4-4-0s.  Even the outside frame locomotives still had a lot of life left, since by and large the equivalent outside frame 2-6-0s lasted another 15 years. 

 

 

Presumably there were a lot of standard components, notably boilers, in these 4-4-0s that could see further use?

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4 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Presumably there were a lot of standard components, notably boilers, in these 4-4-0s that could see further use?

Boilers definitely, most of the motion components on the 4-4-0s too. I'm pretty sure I've seen a reference to a County number being stamped on a component being refurbished in the 1950s, I'm not sure if I've heard of any being found in preservation days.

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26 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Presumably there were a lot of standard components, notably boilers, in these 4-4-0s that could see further use?

IIRC County Wheels, Cylinders & Motion parts were the same as Saints (they were the same power as a Saint but with one less driving axle) and several Saints lasted into BR days

Boilers could have ended up on several different classes of locos.

Collett's ancient looking "Dukedogs" were an amalgamation of useful parts from at least two classes of outside frame 4-4-0.

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1 hour ago, JimC said:

Boilers definitely, most of the motion components on the 4-4-0s too. I'm pretty sure I've seen a reference to a County number being stamped on a component being refurbished in the 1950s, I'm not sure if I've heard of any being found in preservation days.

The GWR has 14 standard taper boilers, which is much the same as saying that standardisation didn't exist.

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1 hour ago, PenrithBeacon said:

The GWR has 14 standard taper boilers, which is much the same as saying that standardisation didn't exist.

 

There were about 27 standard boiler types in all, but not all were numbered. Of course that's still way fewer than any other line. Of the numbered types several were domed and not tapered. Six more were, I fear only used on a single class, and indeed only one Standard 6 boiler was ever built. But the vast majority of GWR locomotives used only a few boiler types. The problems came firstly with the myriad of absorbed locos and secondly when they had to build to weight limits. Most of the single class 'standards' came about because of weight restrictions.

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