Imaginary Locomotives

[MikeOxon]

8 hours ago, rockershovel said:

 

In what sense is that a “crocodile”?

 

Only because Dean's 4-6-0 was popularly known as the 'crocodile' and wasdesigned for the same job as my version.

1 hour ago, rodent279 said:

Personally, I think 4-6-0's just look too chunky when streamlined.

I had a go back in 2014 on Page 14 of this thread:

 

 

 

Edited October 25, 2020 by MikeOxon

[JimC]

10 hours ago, rodent279 said:

a rake of say 6 or 8 GWR two car railcars, with the outer cars streamlined, and an engine in every car, would be a plausible early HST.

The pairs of railcars sometimes ran with an unpowered coach in between, so a mix of powered and unpowered cars is a very obvious extension.

[FoxUnpopuli]

1 hour ago, PhilJ W said:

The pair of Streamlined B17's didn't look to bad.

Buuuuut... I think a streamlined V2 would have looked better. 

 

[Budgie]

49 minutes ago, MikeOxon said:

Only because Dean's 4-6-0 was popularly known as the 'crocodile' and wasdesigned for the same job as my version.

I had a go back in 2014 on Page 14 of this thread:

 

 

 

 

Are you sure that's not one of those steampunk creations? It looks awful.

[scots region]

2 hours ago, rodent279 said:

Personally, I think 4-6-0's just look too chunky when streamlined. The extra couple of metres of a Pacific helps to balance the somewhat slab sided nature of an A4 or Coronation. As for Bulleid Pacifics-as a Pacific they look can pull it off, but without the trailing axle, I think they'd look too short & stocky.

 

Ehh, depends on the degree, I think most streamliners look good because the design is maintained throughout, unlike the half-hearted efforts of the GWR, where it was just a case of just bolting some extra metal on. 

[rockershovel]

8 hours ago, scots region said:

 

Ehh, depends on the degree, I think most streamliners look good because the design is maintained throughout, unlike the half-hearted efforts of the GWR, where it was just a case of just bolting some extra metal on. 

 

Definitely. Trains like the LNER Silver Jubilee or the Dreyfuss styling of the Twentieth Century Limited, or for that matter the original HST work because they are complete entities. 

 

This, on the other hand...

 

 

Edited October 26, 2020 by rockershovel

[Corbs]

Oddly I quite like the look of the GWR one in that very first shot (the three quarter view).

[The Johnster]

Matter of taste, but all streamlined steam locos look horrible to me.  
 

So, if the narrator is to be believed, 6014 was to make an attempt on the World Speed Record, ‘which Britain already holds’.  Yeah, right...

[rockershovel]

3 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Matter of taste, but all streamlined steam locos look horrible to me.  
 

So, if the narrator is to be believed, 6014 was to make an attempt on the World Speed Record, ‘which Britain already holds’.  Yeah, right...

 

I can find no reference to any record attempt. 6014 seems to have lost its streamlined nosecone, fairings and splashers quite early, but various references suggest that it kept the v-shaped cab to the end (probably the only part which actually required reworking, rather than simply unbolting and tossing aside during routine maintenance)

[melmerby]

2 minutes ago, rockershovel said:

 

I can find no reference to any record attempt. 6014 seems to have lost its streamlined nosecone, fairings and splashers quite early, but various references suggest that it kept the v-shaped cab to the end (probably the only part which actually required reworking, rather than simply unbolting and tossing aside during routine maintenance)

AFAIK the GWR never went for any speed records and the maximum recorded speed for their 4-6-0s King & Castle) was in the middle of the 100-110mph range, mainly done in the BR "final fling".

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, melmerby said:

AFAIK the GWR never went for any speed records 

 

City of Truro, claimed as the first authenticated 100 mph maximum?

 

Cheltenham Flyer, highest average speed scheduled run?

[melmerby]

21 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

City of Truro, claimed as the first authenticated 100 mph maximum?

 

Cheltenham Flyer, highest average speed scheduled run?

Splitting hairs as the Flyer was not an absolute speed record as such (Did it break an actual top speed record ? - No) and I don't think from the description Truro was anything more than a "lets just see how fast we can do", rather than a organised crack at a definitive record.

Edited October 26, 2020 by melmerby

[melmerby]

21 minutes ago, rockershovel said:

 

I can find no reference to any record attempt. 6014 seems to have lost its streamlined nosecone, fairings and splashers quite early, but various references suggest that it kept the v-shaped cab to the end (probably the only part which actually required reworking, rather than simply unbolting and tossing aside during routine maintenance)

Looks like it was still there to the end as it's still there in 1960, two years before it was withdrawn:

https://zenfolio.page.link/rY5PW

[Compound2632]

12 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Splitting hairs as the Flyer was not an absolute speed record as such 

Well, it gets its own chapter in Nock's Speed Records on Britain's Railways and is on the cover of my paperback edition! The Great Western advertised it as the "World's Fastest Train". Nock treats maximum average speeds and absolute maximum speeds as of equal interest.  

[melmerby]

1 minute ago, Compound2632 said:

Well, it gets its own chapter in Nock's Speed Records on Britain's Railways and is on the cover of my paperback edition! The Great Western advertised it as the "World's Fastest Train". Nock treats maximum average speeds and absolute maximum speeds as of equal interest.  

But IMHO it wasn't in the same vein as the LNER & LMS attempts at a absolute maximum speed.

I don't think the GWR was after that sort of publicity, it was more into the prestige of an every-day fastest train.

[The Johnster]

Oh dear, the worm’s are out of the can now! Of course the GW never attempted any speed records in the 30s, hence my ‘yeah, right’ comment, about the poor and clearly unresearched narration (journalism was carp then as well).  Neither did the Southern.  The GW had had for some time the world’s fastest timetabled passenger train, the Castle hauled Cheltenham Flyer Swindon-Paddington up run of 80mph start-stop average, with a limited load at a quiet time of day. Hardly much of an achievement even allowing for the Reading speed restriction, and it often arrived early, which impressed the passengers no doubt; ‘I was on the world’s fastest train today, and we were 5 minutes early!!!’.

 

So, with the publicity people happy with this boasting right, Collett was instructed to have engines he could point to that looked as fast as a Coronation or an A4 to people who’d read Flash Gordon.  The GWR did not muck around with such nonsense, and was above such cheap and dangerous publicity stunts thank you very much...

 

Film crew turns up at Swindon shed because GW publicity have arranged it, film loco, someone says to a cleaner or somebody ‘this is going for a record then is it?’, and whoever it is says ‘yeah, mate’ and gets on with his day, complaining about the cables.  Film gets edited and the ‘record’ attempt is mentioned to the narrator recording the commentary soundtrack.  The rest is incorrect history because nobody checked the facts. 

 

[Gibbo675]

H Folks,

 

Most of the air resistance of a train is due to its length, with side winds compounding this somewhat more than head winds as a result. This was well known in the 1930's, however, the fashion was, streamlining for everything, so that is locomotives got. It is a little hard to streamline a coach other than by the addition of flush fitting windows and fairings over the underframes.

 

R. A. Riddles is said to have been quoted that the addition of an extra two tons in the form of streamlined casings was of no benefit until the train was travelling at over 80mph.

 

As for Bulleid's Air smoothed casing some reports seem to think it was designed so that the locomotives could be put through the carriage washing plants to save labour, for all I know about that it may be apocryphal or it may be true.

 

Gibbo.

[Compound2632]

16 minutes ago, Gibbo675 said:

R. A. Riddles is said to have been quoted that the addition of an extra two tons in the form of streamlined casings was of no benefit until the train was travelling at over 80mph.

 

That wasn't an opinion but the conclusion of extensive wind tunnel testing in the run up to the design of the streamlining for the Princess Coronations.

Edited October 26, 2020 by Compound2632

[FoxUnpopuli]

13 minutes ago, Gibbo675 said:

R. A. Riddles is said to have been quoted that the addition of an extra two tons in the form of streamlined casings was of no benefit until the train was travelling at over 80mph.

 

Riddles and Gresley (or Bugatti) might have said exactly the same thing to support both sides of the argument, but I think the point here is that post-war, the permanent way was in such a state, trains couldn't reach those kinds of speeds.

 

Gresley was convinced that the A4 could hit 130mph - although it's arguable whether anything much above 100mph was ever 'safe'.  Witness how the LMS got their record... 'lucky' would probably be a fair shout for all of them.

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, FoxUnpopuli said:

Riddles and Gresley (or Bugatti) might have said exactly the same thing to support both sides of the argument, but I think the point here is that post-war, the permanent way was in such a state, trains couldn't reach those kinds of speeds.

 

That remark from Riddles was presumably in the context of his being on Stanier's staff in the 30s.

[Gibbo675]

5 minutes ago, FoxUnpopuli said:

 

Riddles and Gresley (or Bugatti) might have said exactly the same thing to support both sides of the argument, but I think the point here is that post-war, the permanent way was in such a state, trains couldn't reach those kinds of speeds.

 

Gresley was convinced that the A4 could hit 130mph - although it's arguable whether anything much above 100mph was ever 'safe'.  Witness how the LMS got their record... 'lucky' would probably be a fair shout for all of them.

Hi Mark,

 

Going fast is not the problem it is the propagation rate of the vacuum brake that is the problem with signalling block lengths as they were to be able to bring trains to a stand without re-signalling the entire railway or leaving larger gaps between trains within the timetable. This was the very reason for the fitting of air brakes to diesels, although strangely not the AC electrics from new, and the conversion of almost all of the passenger and goods stock to enable higher speeds to be attained.

 

The design brief of both the HST and APT were to be able to use the existing signalling and line capacity at the higher speeds. This was achieved through the application of new braking technologies.

 

Gibbo.

[Gibbo675]

Hi Folks,

 

Slightly off topic but interesting:

 

 

 

Gibbo.

[Northmoor]

6 minutes ago, FoxUnpopuli said:

 

Riddles and Gresley (or Bugatti) might have said exactly the same thing to support both sides of the argument, but I think the point here is that post-war, the permanent way was in such a state, trains couldn't reach those kinds of speeds.

 

Gresley was convinced that the A4 could hit 130mph - although it's arguable whether anything much above 100mph was ever 'safe'.  Witness how the LMS got their record... 'lucky' would probably be a fair shout for all of them.

Since air resistance rises in proportion to the cube of the speed, every extra MPH means big increases in power required.  More power is going to mean more or bigger cylinders (within the limits of the loading gauge) and this is going to mean progressively bigger rods, which means bigger reciprocating forces (which also rise with the square of the speed, even at constant mass).  What this all means is that vibration is going to damage the track before steam locomotives go much faster, unless you start using a lot of cylinders with geared drive or better still, steam turbine/geared drive. 

 

While the railways realised the futility of chasing speed headlines after WW2, what they were far too slow to realise was the need to improve productivity, especially with freight.  The fact that by the end of steam, huge quantities of coal were still being shifted in unfitted, 16t 4-wheel wagons (look at what the Americans or Germans were using by then), says a lot about the inertia in the industry and many of their (nationalised) customers.

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, Gibbo675 said:

H Folks,

 

As for Bulleid's Air smoothed casing some reports seem to think it was designed so that the locomotives could be put through the carriage washing plants to save labour, for all I know about that it may be apocryphal or it may be true.

 

Gibbo.

IMHO As Bulleid was trying to get his new fangled steam machines approved by the War Ministry or whatever, they're hardly going to be called "streamlined for speed"!

AFAIK the MNs, although decidely a passenger engine were claimed at the time to be mixed traffic engines and were approved as such.

 

[Gibbo675]

2 minutes ago, melmerby said:

IMHO As Bulleid was trying to get his new fangled steam machines approved by the War Ministry or whatever, they're hardly going to be called "streamlined for speed"!

AFAIK the MNs, although decidely a passenger engine were claimed at the time to be mixed traffic engines and were approved as such.

 

Hi Kieth,

 

Surely saving labour on the cleaning of locomotives meant that the War Ministry had more men to put through the meat grinder, that would no doubt please them immensely whatever the locomotives were called.

 

Gibbo.