Imaginary Locomotives

[Corbs]

Although the S160 and S100 locos are a (perhaps quite extreme) version of shrinking an American design to fit the UK loading gauge.

 

The two De Glehns bought by the GWR, too

[DavidB-AU]

I have to say that I agree - I don't think that overseas styling can ever be translated for the home market.

Apart from a handful of imported exceptions such as the De Glehns, some narrow gauge Baldwins and real oddities like the Michelin railcar.

 

What about Sentinel style ends?

 

Cheers

David

[BernardTPM]

The Sentinel/Metro-Cammell railcar style does have a colonial look to it. In hotter climes the small toplight glazed ventilators were omitted. On the other hand the WAGR AW railcars with Park Royal bodies do have a more British look, even though part of the roof would be out of gauge on most British lines.

Edited December 21, 2017 by BernardTPM

[The Johnster]

The Merkans supplied locos to the Midland, Great Northern, Barry, and Port Talbot railways in Britain, all of which had a very American look.  There were also the original Pullmans on the Midland, and that major main line route the Newport (Alexander Dock and Railway) had 2 of the Barnum and Bailey Circus Train's coaches, again very American in style!  So there is, arguably, a genre of American designed to British loading gauge with British buffers and drawgear, and this might inform imaginary locos for British use, such as a Pennsy K4 that isn't a Gresley pacific for starters.

 

Discuss...

[talisman56]

The Merkans supplied locos to the Midland, Great Northern, Barry, and Port Talbot railways in Britain, all of which had a very American look.  There were also the original Pullmans on the Midland, and that major main line route the Newport (Alexander Dock and Railway) had 2 of the Barnum and Bailey Circus Train's coaches, again very American in style!  So there is, arguably, a genre of American designed to British loading gauge with British buffers and drawgear, and this might inform imaginary locos for British use, such as a Pennsy K4 that isn't a Gresley pacific for starters.

 

Discuss...

 

...and the original passenger vehicles on the WC&PR...

 

https://www.hfstephens-museum.org.uk/images/stories/topics/wcp_carriages/no2.jpg

[Regularity]

Drawing out specific exceptions to the rule(s) - which is what is going on here - does not refute a generalisation.

 

All it means is, unless you are specifically modelling one of the exceptions, then you need to come up with a plausible back-story for anything out of the ordinary, or you will be falling back on rule 1 - which let’s be honest is a way of saying, “I couldn’t be bothered to do a proper research job, so I looked around for a handy excuse.”

 

Now, I have absolutely no problem with that, provided that whoever is invoking rule 1 is completely honest with themselves about it. (What they say to the rest of the world is their own affair, and they can suffer or enjoy whatever consequences follow, but we all need to be honest with and to ourselves if we want to be happy.) And if I find it implausible, then what does it matter unless they are looking for me to like/approve it?

[FPH 603]

You have shades over the windows, by the look of it. Not impossible, but unlikely.

If you don’t mind the observation, your designs don’t look very British: Australian railways have often struck me as looking like what happens when you combine British and American designs, which I suppose is essentially true, and they end up looking American to British eyes, and British to American eyes.

Probably worth looking at at British and Irish early DMUs, particularly on the GNRI and County Donegal, etc, to get a better feel for the styling of what might have transpired over here. Google is your friend here.

I was going to remove the shades from the start, although it looks I'm going to have to do more than that. I've looked over the BR DMU's on railcar.co.uk several times and I have looked at the LNER's railcars too. I while ago I did look at the GNR (I)'s BUT railcars too.

I have to say that I agree - I don't think that overseas styling can ever be translated for the home market.

 

For a start, the Stephenson loading-gauge imposes a very distinct 'narrow' impression - look at the end profiles of British and Australian stock.

 

Australian stock is also adapted for an entirely different climate - better ventilation and the provision of shade.

 

What you are doing is very interesting - but it still shouts 'colonial' at me; (and I don't mean that in a condescending manner).

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

I'm still developing the design behind the scenes, and when I have time I'll post a rough sketch of the new designs.

Apart from a handful of imported exceptions such as the De Glehns, some narrow gauge Baldwins and real oddities like the Michelin railcar.What about Sentinel style ends?CheersDavid

I've looked at the LNER's Sentinel Railcars before, and I may need to look at them again.

The Sentinel/Metro-Cammell railcar style does have a colonial look to it. In hotter climes the small toplight glazed ventilators were omitted. On the other hand the WAGR AW railcars with Park Royal bodies do have a more British look, even though part of the roof would be out of gauge on most British lines.

I think with a little bit of work that sort of design will work, it may need a little resizing though.

Drawing out specific exceptions to the rule(s) - which is what is going on here - does not refute a generalisation.

All it means is, unless you are specifically modelling one of the exceptions, then you need to come up with a plausible back-story for anything out of the ordinary, or you will be falling back on rule 1 - which let’s be honest is a way of saying, “I couldn’t be bothered to do a proper research job, so I looked around for a handy excuse.”

Now, I have absolutely no problem with that, provided that whoever is invoking rule 1 is completely honest with themselves about it. (What they say to the rest of the world is their own affair, and they can suffer or enjoy whatever consequences follow, but we all need to be honest with and to ourselves if we want to be happy.) And if I find it implausible, then what does it matter unless they are looking for me to like/approve it?

I think I like my backstory how it is thanks!

Edited December 21, 2017 by DoubleDeckInterurban

[Regularity]

Good: it’s your backstory, and don’t let anyone take that away from you.

[FPH 603]

Good: it’s your backstory, and don’t let anyone take that away from you.

Glad you think so.

[Hroth]

The Merkans supplied locos to the Midland, Great Northern, Barry, and Port Talbot railways in Britain, all of which had a very American look.  There were also the original Pullmans on the Midland, and that major main line route the Newport (Alexander Dock and Railway) had 2 of the Barnum and Bailey Circus Train's coaches, again very American in style!  So there is, arguably, a genre of American designed to British loading gauge with British buffers and drawgear, and this might inform imaginary locos for British use, such as a Pennsy K4 that isn't a Gresley pacific for starters.

 

Discuss...

There were also the original EMUs for the Mersey Railway of definite US design, introduced in 1903 when the railway converted from steam to electric traction. The units were supplied by Westinghouse, with Baldwin running gear, though the bodies were actually built in the UK.

 

 

(The wikipedia captioning is incorrect, the train has left Birkenhead Park and is going INTO the tunnel for Hamilton Square and thence the two Liverpool stations)

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mersey_Railway

 

Edit for spelling...

Edited December 21, 2017 by Hroth

[Coryton]

(The wikipedia captioning is incorrect, the train has left Birkenhead Park and is going INTO the tunnel for Hamilton Squate and thence the two Liverpool stations)

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mersey_Railway

 

If you're sure of that, the appropriate action would probably be to fix it on Wikipedia.

[Hroth]

If you're sure of that, the appropriate action would probably be to fix it on Wikipedia.

To be honest, I wouldn't presume....    But no, the only time Mersey Railway trains emerged into the open air would either be at Birkenhead Park, or Birkenhead Central.  The tunnel entrance at Central is on a r/h curve at the end of the platforms so it isn't there and must be at the tunnel entrance at Park,  so a train on the l/h track would be going away from the viewer and into the tunnel.

[Coryton]

To be honest, I wouldn't presume....    But no, the only time Mersey Railway trains emerged into the open air would either be at Birkenhead Park, or Birkenhead Central.  The tunnel entrance at Central is on a r/h curve at the end of the platforms so it isn't there and must be at the tunnel entrance at Park,  so a train on the l/h track would be going away from the viewer and into the tunnel.

 

Well I'd go for it then. If someone feels strongly about it they can always change it back.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Be_bold

 

To be honest, I wouldn't presume....    But no, the only time Mersey Railway trains emerged into the open air would either be at Birkenhead Park, or Birkenhead Central.  The tunnel entrance at Central is on a r/h curve at the end of the platforms so it isn't there and must be at the tunnel entrance at Park,  so a train on the l/h track would be going away from the viewer and into the tunnel.

 

Well I'd go for it then. If someone feels strongly about it they can always change it back.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Be_bold

[cctransuk]

I think I like my backstory how it is thanks!

 

What I think some of us fail to comprehend is the motivation for adapting Australian rolling stock to the UK rail scene.

 

UK rolling stock was built by railway operating companies, or rolling stock builders who supplied both the home and overseas markets.

 

For the home market, the rolling stock builders produced what suited the UK operating conditions; ie. traditional UK designs.

 

For the overseas market, they adapted those design principles to suit the conditions in their overseas market.

 

What you seem to be doing is adapting Australian designs to the UK market.

 

That's fine - provided that we accept the premise that Australia is the Old World, and the UK is the New World.

 

Unfortunately, in the reverse (real) world, it somehow just doesn't work.

 

Sorry,

John Isherwood.

[FPH 603]

In a real situation, the designs would most certainly have been adapted from the original Australian stock. Chances are that the designer would have travelled there and would have seen the original for themselves. This has happened in real life before, during the design of the LNER A4 class. Nigel Gresley visited Germany in the 1930's and travelled on the 'Flying Hamburger', a new and innovative streamlined diesel train. The LNER could have purchased similar trains, but Nigel Gresley wanted to know how to make the fastest steam locomotive. He also saw the Buggati Railcars and was inspired by their streamlining. This eventually was made into the A4 class we know and love today. (This was written from what I remember, so make any corrections if necessary!)

 

Probably not the best example, but it's one I know of.

[Corbs]

I don't think they need much tweaking to convincingly work as a UK-built railcar. Sometimes it's the little things that make all the difference, which is what I was thinking about when I suggested swapping the cow catchers for mini-ploughs.

 

Of course, the 'wild west'-looking WC&PR stock was built by the Lancaster Carriage Co. for export, but the order was cancelled. Something similar could have happened in the production of your class? The prototype, whilst destined for the foreign market, could have been trialled on BR metals and filled a niche so well that it resulted in further orders?

 

I always liked the look of the 'Cuban 47s' in BR two-tone green. I wouldn't mind fitting our own 47s with large headlights, like the prototype Deltic.

[Hroth]

I don't think they need much tweaking to convincingly work as a UK-built railcar. Sometimes it's the little things that make all the difference, which is what I was thinking about when I suggested swapping the cow catchers for mini-ploughs.

 

Of course, the 'wild west'-looking WC&PR stock was built by the Lancaster Carriage Co. for export, but the order was cancelled. Something similar could have happened in the production of your class? The prototype, whilst destined for the foreign market, could have been trialled on BR metals and filled a niche so well that it resulted in further orders?

 

I always liked the look of the 'Cuban 47s' in BR two-tone green. I wouldn't mind fitting our own 47s with large headlights, like the prototype Deltic.

Crikey!

 

Well, the class nickname would probably be "Dalek".....

[FPH 603]

I don't think they need much tweaking to convincingly work as a UK-built railcar. Sometimes it's the little things that make all the difference, which is what I was thinking about when I suggested swapping the cow catchers for mini-ploughs.

 

Of course, the 'wild west'-looking WC&PR stock was built by the Lancaster Carriage Co. for export, but the order was cancelled. Something similar could have happened in the production of your class? The prototype, whilst destined for the foreign market, could have been trialled on BR metals and filled a niche so well that it resulted in further orders?

 

I always liked the look of the 'Cuban 47s' in BR two-tone green. I wouldn't mind fitting our own 47s with large headlights, like the prototype Deltic.

Crikey!

 

Well, the class nickname would probably be "Dalek".....

Interesting design... The headlight suits it. I agree with the statement made of prototype exports trialled on BR metals. Linking with my previous point about designers being inspired by overseas visits, this would make a pretty good backstory, but I'm not sure if others would agree though..

[Compound2632]

I've written before of the influence of Richard Wagner on Robert Riddles.

[PhilJ W]

In a real situation, the designs would most certainly have been adapted from the original Australian stock. Chances are that the designer would have travelled there and would have seen the original for themselves. This has happened in real life before, during the design of the LNER A4 class. Nigel Gresley visited Germany in the 1930's and travelled on the 'Flying Hamburger', a new and innovative streamlined diesel train. The LNER could have purchased similar trains, but Nigel Gresley wanted to know how to make the fastest steam locomotive. He also saw the Buggati Railcars and was inspired by their streamlining. This eventually was made into the A4 class we know and love today. (This was written from what I remember, so make any corrections if necessary!)

 

Probably not the best example, but it's one I know of.

Gresley's ultimate aim was electricification, if it hadn't been for the LNER's financial problems, WW2 and Gresley's untimely death there could have been an electric A4, 2-Co-1 perhaps?

[Corbs]

Last night I had a strange vision of a Bulleid West Country, but instead of having loco and tender separate, mounted on one large set of frames atop 2 bogies like the Leader.

[FPH 603]

Last night I had a strange vision of a Bulleid West Country, but instead of having loco and tender separate, mounted on one large set of frames atop 2 bogies like the Leader.

Sounds interesting... I've had strange visions like that before. You never know what you come up with in your sleep!

 

These so called 'trams' I've been developing have turned out more like heavyweight Railmotors (that's what I get for using heavy rail as a prototype for light rail!), so I'm going to venture even further into Railmotor designing and go into the 'main' line stock. Although I think for this next one I'll bring out the base and let the public decide it's fate! I've looked further into British, Irish and American type Railcars, so I'm a little more prepared for adapting the designs, but I thought it might be better if I get opinions prior to actually commencing design work. I might even 'dream something up' like Corbs with his West Country Leader. The design process can be very unpredictable at times...

[TerryD1471]

I have often wondered what the tractive effort of a black 5 type loco would be like with 1 or 2 extra driving wheel sets making them either a 4-8-0 or 4-10-0.

 

It might seem a strange idea but as this is for imaginary locos I thought I'd see what you all thought.

 

I think such a loco would be a good mixed traffic loco with 2 or 4 extra driving wheels as it could probably haul maybe 5 or 10 coaches or up to 20 or 25 wagons more than a 4-6-0.

I have often mused on the feasibility of a 4-8-0 using a 2A boiler (as in Rebuilt Scots) with possibly 5'6" wheels as a superb heavy mixed traffic loco. I think it would have been well appreciated on the Settle & Carlisle.

 

Going a step further, what about a 2A boiler atop a 2-10-0 chassis for a Stanier 9F? To sleep, perchance to dream?

 

At a more practical level, I was never clear why the Stanier 5MT and 8F locos were "hobbled" by cylinders a bit too small. Taking them out to 19" diameter would have given them a better starting capability (like the Hall and 28xx on which they were based) without any danger of them over-reaching the boiler.

[Corbs]

Is the 2A boiler significantly longer?

[TerryD1471]

Is the 2A boiler significantly longer?

Not really, but they were superb steam raising boilers and the extra length required (visually) could be taken up by a longer smokebox.