Imaginary Locomotives

[Regularity]

How does the Irish loading gauge compare (not track gauge!) With that of the mainland UK? There's some very US looking machines there, plus narrow body with cab at each end.

Well, they were built in the USA.

 

Ever considered using google? Typing “Irish Railway loading gauge” into the search engine takes less that posting the question here, and leads to an immediate answer, too...

 

That said, read this: http://www.irishrail.ie/media/ie_2016_network_statement_2904.pdf from which I took:

They do use /have used British stock, but the loading gauge is wider: I have travelled on mk3 coaches (bigger foot steps) and also olde coaches where 3+3 seating was available.

Edited January 14, 2018 by Regularity

[BernardTPM]

How does the Irish loading gauge compare (not track gauge!) With that of the mainland UK? There's some very US looking machines there, plus narrow body with cab at each end:

 

http://briansolomon.com/trackingthelight/tag/irish-rail/page/2/

Some older coaches were 10 foot wide. The double cabbed version didn't appear until late 1962, so as I said, it don't think it was something that had been considered in the 1940s - unless anyone can come up with an earlier example, of course! (English Electric built similar locos for Ghana in 1968-70).

Edited January 14, 2018 by BernardTPM

[Regularity]

I have often thought that Ireland got the track gauges and loading gauges that we really needed in Great Britain. That extra 6.5” between the frames, plus a foot wider and quite a bit taller on the loading gauge, would have transformed our network.

 

Oh well, it was too late by 1829, so no going back now, but what a “might have been” scenario!

[Satan's Goldfish]

Large logo, then scotrail 'class 65' would have looked good on the push/pull sets...

 

Ah yes I could have used Google, but asking here gets others thinking of the imaginary options too

 

All interesting stuff, never realised the difference was that great as they'd taken on some br mk2 and mk3 stock. I'm sure a 3'6" gauge New Zealand also has repurposed some mk2s, I may have to look how their locos compare...

[Regularity]

Many railways running on 42” or metre gauge track have a similar loading gauge to ours.

 

That’s the penalty of being a pioneer.

[Corbs]

 

Height issue sorted!

[Regularity]

Bloody hell that looks good: what BREL were trying to achieve with the 58, perhaps?t

 

It us probably a foot too wide, but can we gloss over that?

(Maybe numbered as a class 61, 62, 63, 64 or 68?)

Edited January 14, 2018 by Regularity

[Satan's Goldfish]

There's an 'artists impression' in a rail express mag from the late 90s of what the the New class 66 loco ordered by ews could look like; imagine the narrow body above but with class 59 cabs. Often been tempted to try it with an old Hornby 58 body and lima 59 ends.

[DavidB-AU]

Queensland Railways received the 1400 class in 1955. It's a variant of the EMD G12. The Irish class 121 is an EMD G8 with the 8 cylinder 567C engine. The G12 is the 12 cylinder version. It fits into this loading gauge. Dimensions are in mm.

 

EDIT: And in case you're wondering if a 1300hp GM from 1955 would fit in the UK loading gauge...

 

 

Cheers

David

Edited January 15, 2018 by DavidB-AU

[Regularity]

You sure that’s not H0?

 

PS: This is a 1400, surely?

Edited January 15, 2018 by Regularity

[Hroth]

You sure that’s not H0?

 

PS: This is a 1400, surely?

I see its been fenced off so it won't run amok through the woods!

[Bloodnok]

Queensland Railways received the 1400 class in 1955. It's a variant of the EMD G12. The Irish class 121 is an EMD G8 with the 8 cylinder 567C engine. The G12 is the 12 cylinder version. It fits into this loading gauge. Dimensions are in mm.

These were also delivered to NZ in 1955 as the Da class I believe.

 

Also worth looking at for this purpose is the GE sourced QR 1150s (first delivered in 1952), and to see how a British manufacturer would approach the same challenge, the EE sourced QR 1200s (1953) and QR 1250s (1959).

 

As far as early double cabbed mainline diesel locos, look at the Victorian B class, first delivered in 1952. A slightly shrunk EMD F7 with two full cabs and running on proper Co-Co bogies to boot as well.

 

But two cabs on a diesel does date back much further than that. The original example surely has to be the AGEIR boxcabs of the mid 1920s. Sure, they mostly saw service in shunting and transfer work, but bigger versions for mainline work were built.

 

So having two cabs on a diesel loco isn't something that didn't occur to manufacturers until much later. I guess with turntables everywhere and lots of other mainline engines with poor forward visibility anyway, two cabs wasn't a key selling feature until much, much later on.

Edited January 15, 2018 by Bloodnok

[BernardTPM]

As far as early double cabbed mainline diesel locos, look at the Victorian B class, first delivered in 1952. A slightly shrunk EMD F7 with two full cabs and running on proper Co-Co bogies to boot as well.

I was referring to bonnet/hooded designs with two cabs. Two cabs on full width bodies is nothing unusual. The Armstrong Whitworth 800hp demonstrator of 1933 was like that.

Edited January 15, 2018 by BernardTPM

[Regularity]

I see its been fenced off so it won't run amok through the woods!

Didn’t work: I’ve seen the film!

[Bloodnok]

I was referring to bonnet/hooded designs with two cabs. Two cabs on full width bodies is nothing unusual. The Armstrong Whitworth 800hp demonstrator of 1933 was like that.

Now that one is interesting -- the design has an obvious "front" and "back" to it and visually (if nothing else) has a clear direction of travel. That's not quite the same case as a loco with two identical cabs that is equally at home running in either direction. (The AGEIR boxcab of 1925 that I posted about does have two cabs the same though, so the point that they were common on full width locos is valid).

 

But nevertheless, the challenge is set ... find the first example of a hood pattern diesel loco with a cab at each end.

 

What's interesting is that there were two standard patterns well established by circa 1930. A 'large' loco with a full cab at each end, or a 'small' loco with a single, centrally located cab looking out over the top of the loco in both directions.

 

When ALCO came out with what I think is the first hood pattern diesel in 1931 and put a single cab at one end with the view to the other end down the side of the (admittedly short) loco, that would have been a significant innovation at the time. This appears to have been driven by cost savings -- the hood pattern is about easy maintenance, so a single cab is thematic for cost saving reasons.

 

Then you've got all the passenger streamlined locos appearing throughout the mid '30s, and aside from the very first EMC pair (which was two dressed-up boxcabs semi-permanently coupled), all of those were also single cab designs, albeit this time done for appearance.

 

These two locomotive patterns seems to have set the expectation (in the US, and then exported around the world) that diesel locos need only one cab, which has continued in much of the world to this day.

 

Two end cabs specifically on a hood pattern loco appears to have only occurred once a) locos were powerful enough for solo use, b) a requirement to turn the loco was considered a problem, and c) forward visibility expectations of drivers had risen beyond the typical steam locomotive. This puts us well into the 1960s in most places. The wikipedia page mentions the Irish drivers (by then used to 001 and 201 class locos) refusing to drive the then-new GM 121s 'long hood forward' due to visibility concerns.

 

I would not be surprised if the Irish 141 is actually the first such example. Remember that in some places at about that time, 'long hood forward' was still being insisted on due to perceived safety benefits in the event of a collision...

 

[Satan's Goldfish]

Not forgetting the New South Wales 44 class on the 'odd' diesel design front:

 

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=nsw+class+44&dcr=0&prmd=insv&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwilnsuFztrYAhVIJ-wKHYZyCpoQ_AUICSgB&biw=1280&bih=800

 

Streamlined cab at 1 end, blunt cab at the other. I can't imagine an EE type 3 in that format!

[scots region]

Didn’t work: I’ve seen the film!

‘Note to self’. Wild GWR tank engines have an extreme aversion to Bovril, use to your advantage.

[BernardTPM]

Now that one is interesting -- the design has an obvious "front" and "back" to it and visually (if nothing else) has a clear direction of travel. That's not quite the same case as a loco with two identical cabs that is equally at home running in either direction.

 

I would not be surprised if the Irish 141 is actually the first such example. Remember that in some places at about that time, 'long hood forward' was still being insisted on due to perceived safety benefits in the event of a collision...

Yes, the short nose actually houses a second, smaller engine for auxiliaries, starting purposes, etc. They later built similar locos with this incorporated into the main body.

 

On the second point, I too was wondering if the 141s were the first like that. It could be one of those things that's only blinding obvious once someone has done it.

[Regularity]

Not forgetting the New South Wales class 44.

Streamlined cab at 1 end, blunt cab at the other. I can't imagine an EE type 3 in that format!

Just like a class 91.

[Satan's Goldfish]

Just like a class 91.

Yup, I forgot about those!

[Regularity]

Yup, I forgot about those!

Fans of Deltics, Greeley pacifics, Ivatt atlantics, Stirling singles, and from a passenger comfort perspective the HST, all wish they could, too.

[Hroth]

‘Note to self’. Wild GWR tank engines have an extreme aversion to Bovril, use to your advantage.

Going by the fragment dangling from the smokebox, Guinness isn't a favourite either!

[Regularity]

Going by the fragment dangling from the smokebox, Guinness isn't a favourite either!

Oh, I don’t know: I can see the remnants of a “Guinness for strength” logo, so maybe it worked too well?

[DavidB-AU]

Not forgetting the New South Wales 44 class on the 'odd' diesel design front:

The Alco DL500 had already been running in Spain and Pakistan for a few years before the Australian variant.

 

Cheers

David

[Bloodnok]

The Alco DL500 had already been running in Spain and Pakistan for a few years before the Australian variant.

 

A few years before the NSW variant certainly, but the South Australian order seems to have been pretty early in the production run...