RMweb Gold Corbs Posted January 17, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 17, 2018 You know I have wondered what would have happened if Chapelon had escaped to the UK after the fall of France. Riddles would have had him locked up so he didn't speak to Bulleid! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Corbs Posted January 17, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 17, 2018 (edited) D'oh! With the 4-8-4, what would be the point in a 2 cylinder with walschaerts when you can have a 3 cylinder loco with Caprotti valve gear? Also beefed up the rods, added roller bearings and redesigned the 2 rear axles to take on board your advice. First one is smaller wheel diameter, 2nd is a different spring design. Looks better now I think. EDIT and a name! Edited January 17, 2018 by Corbs 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hroth Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 D'oh! With the 4-8-4, what would be the point in a 2 cylinder with walschaerts when you can have a 3 cylinder loco with Caprotti valve gear? BR-STD-4-8-4-6.jpg Also beefed up the rods, added roller bearings and redesigned the 2 rear axles to take on board your advice. First one is smaller wheel diameter, 2nd is a different spring design. Looks better now I think. EDIT and a name! How about "Kraken", Leviathans big bruvver..... 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Corbs Posted January 17, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 17, 2018 That's a good one, and 'Hydra' for 99003... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Regularity Posted January 17, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 17, 2018 (edited) Shorten the boiler by one ring (assuming the bands match), replace leading bogie with a pony truck, drive third axle, two-cylinder Walshaerts, plus a small+big trailing truck, and you would have a cracking Berkshire. 98000? Edit: Britain’s answer to this: Edited January 17, 2018 by Regularity 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Corbs Posted January 17, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 17, 2018 (edited) Maybe something like this? I think there was already a loco with this name but I wanted it. I think if I shortened the firebox and tender, took out the rear carrying wheels and instead added an extra set of driving wheels, I could make a useable freight loco out of this... Edited January 18, 2018 by Corbs 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Coryton Posted January 17, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 17, 2018 I think if I shortened the firebox and tender, took out the rear carrying wheels and instead added an extra set of driving wheels, I could make a useable freight loco out of this... Might do for the odd passenger train too. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
62613 Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 Riddles would have had him locked up so he didn't speak to Bulleid! They already had, before the war! I think they were both members of the ISRE; how do think Cock o' the North ended up at Vitry? And the last A4s ended up with double Kylchaps? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Northmoor Posted January 17, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 17, 2018 In 1955 we had, to all intents and purposes, the same railway we had in 1935; by 1975 we had the basic formation of the one we have now, with air conditioned stock on some main lines and HSTs about to roll out. Of course, government and Treasury interference in the form of delays, funding withdrawals, and cancellations of electrification schemes had their part to play as well, as the railway hastily ordered more diesels to make up the shortfall, not always particularly good ones! There were some terrible wastes of resources; the later build standards, 94xx, 16xx had ridiculously short working lives and some of the new diesels were ill advised; should the D95xx ever have been built at all? But these examples of undoubted waste must be considered against the holistic backdrop of falling and, most of all, changing traffic patterns. (Beeching) introduced a culture of closure in which one could not make a successful career on the railway by pursuing any other course than finding things to close, closing them, and crowing about how much money you'd saved in a short sighted and blinkered sort of way which did not take into account the effect on profitable traffic elsewhere. Totally agree with at least 99% of what you've written here. I've long believed the Beeching report didn't do the damage, the "Modernisation Plan" did, because it focussed so much on buying lots of new versions of what they already had, rather than addressing the working practices, which were the cause of the financial problems. On your last paragraph above - so true - it must always be remembered that while he was unable to look at the railways with anything other than a purely accountant's eye, he closed not one railway line or station. The minister signed off on every closure. In most cases, the Conservatives made a political judgement that the public would get over it. They were wrong and elected a Labour government who promised to stop the programme; once elected they speeded it up and actually approved a number of closures that Beeching never proposed, confirming you made a BR career by being a "cutter". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Corbs Posted January 17, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 17, 2018 They already had, before the war! I think they were both members of the ISRE; how do think Cock o' the North ended up at Vitry? And the last A4s ended up with double Kylchaps? True, I probably should have added 'again' 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockershovel Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 (edited) Shorten the boiler by one ring (assuming the bands match), replace leading bogie with a pony truck, drive third axle, two-cylinder Walshaerts, plus a small+big trailing truck, and you would have a cracking Berkshire. 98000? Edit: Britain’s answer to this: .... which rather brings us back to four-wheel trailing bogies looking wrong on British locos. After all, the most powerful steam locos on British metals were either 4-6-0, 4-6-2 or 2-10-0 depending on how you define it. The LMS looked at 4-6-4 and 4-8-4 designs but never built them, and THEY were envisaged with bigger fireboxes, the same boilers as the 4-6-2 types and 8-wheel tenders. The LNER P2 outstripped available traffic loading and available paths. American locos with 4-wheel, and in one case 6-wheel bogies supporting the firebox, were typically built for burning very large quantities of poor quality coal and had huge tenders to carry it. Designs allowing very large fireboxes had a long history over there, starting with “camel backs”. Edited January 18, 2018 by rockershovel 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidB-AU Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 (edited) Of course Sir William would not ignore such a challenge. Imagine just one of these on the Condor. Cheers David Edited January 18, 2018 by DavidB-AU 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Corbs Posted January 18, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 18, 2018 What if... Ivatt had beaten Churchward to the 4-6-0? 12 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satan's Goldfish Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 Hope you don't mind me doctoring your creation, but I've altered the tender slightly. Rigid 3 axles at the rear, pony truck at the front, so the tender overhang should be similar to the loco on corners. 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Budgie Posted January 18, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 18, 2018 Hope you don't mind me doctoring your creation, but I've altered the tender slightly. Rigid 3 axles at the rear, pony truck at the front, so the tender overhang should be similar to the loco on corners. You could go further and put a booster on the tender bogie. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Corbs Posted January 18, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 18, 2018 (edited) Hope you don't mind me doctoring your creation, but I've altered the tender slightly. Rigid 3 axles at the rear, pony truck at the front, so the tender overhang should be similar to the loco on corners. Maybe a full bogie tender? and the Berkshire for comparison I think these are my favourity iterations of these so far. Now where are those GBL 9Fs..... Edited January 18, 2018 by Corbs 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Corbs Posted January 18, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 18, 2018 Yes it's mounted rigidly to the bogie but has a flexible connection to the tender body Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium PhilJ W Posted January 18, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 18, 2018 Of course Sir William would not ignore such a challenge. Imagine just one of these on the Condor. LMS484.jpg Cheers David And a footplate big enough for two firemen (plus the driver of course). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium PhilJ W Posted January 18, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 18, 2018 (edited) What if... Ivatt had beaten Churchward to the 4-6-0? GNR-4-6-0.jpg Didn't Jones (and possibly Holden) get there before either of them? Edited January 18, 2018 by PhilJ W Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Corbs Posted January 18, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 18, 2018 Didn't Jones (and possibly Holden) get there before either of them? Probably, I was just thinking of the Castle pulling trains out of Kings Cross in the 1920s. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Regularity Posted January 18, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 18, 2018 Maybe a full bogie tender? and the Berkshire for comparison I think these are my favourity iterations of these so far. Oh, that is just lovely. I have always loved Berks (as our US cousins call them, not realising the rhyming slang - short for “Berkeley Hunt”, work the rest out...* ) and also some of the Stanards, and that combination is lovely. * Calling someone a “Charlie” is also related to this. Charlie Smirke (rhymes with berk) was a flat-race jockey. This is a rare example of double-rhyming slang. Also, when used, you are referring to someone as one of the most taboo words in the English language. I once made this observation - I make no value judgement on the word itself, although of course taboo is just that - on a thread about the Southern Q1s, as they had acquired this soubriquet, and the OP said he had been told not use the word “Charlie” because it was rude! Doh! 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gerbil-Fritters Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 A British version of this, perhaps. Getting all the elements in balance is the key, rather than just stretching existing designs to have more wheels. The 4 wheel trailing truck is designed to support a big wide firebox, not just because of the type of coal but the thermal efficiency. Then there's round top fireboxes, belpaire, compound taper, parallel, etc etc. Small wheels, large wheels, maintenance, duties, so many factors make this an interesting exercise. The least important of all of course, is what it looks like. Which is the very factor that drives most of our dooddlings! Worth reading anything by Chaplon, Durrant and Wardale before jumping into aesthetically driven designing. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted January 18, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 18, 2018 chap2.jpg A British version of this, perhaps. Getting all the elements in balance is the key, rather than just stretching existing designs to have more wheels. The 4 wheel trailing truck is designed to support a big wide firebox, not just because of the type of coal but the thermal efficiency. Then there's round top fireboxes, belpaire, compound taper, parallel, etc etc. Small wheels, large wheels, maintenance, duties, so many factors make this an interesting exercise. The least important of all of course, is what it looks like. Which is the very factor that drives most of our dooddlings! Worth reading anything by Chaplon, Durrant and Wardale before jumping into aesthetically driven designing. On another thread recently, we were asked to choose which locomotive we would most want to own. I opted for the 240P. Not a pretty loco but particularly good at what it was designed for. It would not be the right solution for much of the UK rail network but would have been ideal to take over WCML trains north of Lancaster. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gerbil-Fritters Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 In terms of the general disposition of elements the 240P is not a million miles away from contemporary GWR practice. Churchward was certainly aware of and engaged with the work of Chapelon. A GWR 4-8-0 four cylinder version of a Castle/47xx mash up anyone? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Corbs Posted January 18, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 18, 2018 (edited) Auctioned a while back. Also this one by Dave Frost Edited January 18, 2018 by Corbs 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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