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GWR branchline coach operations


Cofga
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From the 1930s era schedulesI have access to it appears that there were a lot of passenger train movements on GWR branchlines in the 1930s something like 10:1 compared to goods trains. My question is would the same rakes of cars or autocoaches be used day in and day out for these up and down branch runs?

 

Would a pair of suburbans make half a dozen trips each day between a mainline junction station and the branchline terminus?

 

Were rakes of coaches basically assigned to a specific branchline?
 

Would any coaches be run down to the mainline junction and there added on to a mainline train or would passengers be required to disembark and transfer at this point?

 

Also, how did mixed trains operate? Would there be a single coach tacked onto a good trains or vice versa? 

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I think it depends on the branch line. Some branches for example St Ives would get coaches off the Paddington train which would be worked down the branch. Some would have a dedicated coach which simply shuttled down the branch to the junction or major station. I think Watlington branch would be an example of that. Others would have whole trains that came from a major terminus -the Windsor branch would I expect be an example of this.

 

I've seen somewhere I think it was the three volume series on modelling GWR branches that showed the workings for an autocoach service. Which started on one branch then up another before travelling along a third.

 

However I expect that you have in mind the typical bucolic branch line most of us GWR types model. Depending on era then I expect you would probably see a cascaded down old corridor coach or ex slip coach shuttling back and forth 

Rovex

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42 minutes ago, Cofga said:

From the 1930s era schedulesI have access to it appears that there were a lot of passenger train movements on GWR branchlines in the 1930s something like 10:1 compared to goods trains. My question is would the same rakes of cars or autocoaches be used day in and day out for these up and down branch runs?

 

Generally yes, they would sometimes leave the branch for routine maintenance, and possibly cleaning.

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They would then, probably, be replaced temporarily, by a divisional spare set.

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42 minutes ago, Cofga said:

 

Would a pair of suburbans make half a dozen trips each day between a mainline junction station and the branchline terminus?

 

In short, yes.

 

42 minutes ago, Cofga said:

 

Were rakes of coaches basically assigned to a specific branchline?

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Usually, yes.

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42 minutes ago, Cofga said:

Would any coaches be run down to the mainline junction and there added on to a mainline train or would passengers be required to disembark and transfer at this point?

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Occasionally, for operational reasons.

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More likely would be 'through coaches' detached from mainline trains or expresses at the junction and attached to the branch train.

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42 minutes ago, Cofga said:

 

Also, how did mixed trains operate? Would there be a single coach tacked onto a good trains or vice versa? 

 

If the branch was operated with a mixed train, then the coach would be attached to the locomotive, then the wagons would be attached to the coach; as the coaching stock would be vacuum braked.

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33 minutes ago, Cofga said:

My question is would the same rakes of cars or autocoaches be used day in and day out for these up and down branch runs?

 

Generally, yes.

 

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Would a pair of suburbans make half a dozen trips each day between a mainline junction station and the branchline terminus?

 

The number of trips would depend on the traffic demand, and vary accordingly.

 

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Were rakes of coaches basically assigned to a specific branchline?

 

Same answer to your essentially same first question. Coaches were often assigned to geographical 'divisions'. See here for example for B-set allocations

 

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Would any coaches be run down to the mainline junction and there added on to a mainline train or would passengers be required to disembark and transfer at this point?

 

Rarely. Adding coaches to up trains took a bit of flaffing about and took time. It was quicker for the branch passengers to have disembarked their branch train, ready for hopping on the mainline train when it arrived. In the down direction however, dropping off coaches for adding on to down branch trains was more common, e.g. the Cornish Riviera Express dropped off coaches (brake composites, usually) for Kingsbridge, Newquay, Falmouth and St Ives. Note these 'dropoffs' were usually only for the most prestigious branches.

 

In days long before the 1930s, 'through coaches' were a lot more common.

 

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Also, how did mixed trains operate? Would there be a single coach tacked onto a good trains or vice versa? 

 

Mixed trains were very rare on the GWR by the 1930s. The Shipston Branch comes to mind, but the definition of 'mixed' is somewhat complex. Suggest read:

 

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44 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

 

Rarely. Adding coaches to up trains took a bit of flaffing about and took time. It was quicker for the branch passengers to have disembarked their branch train, ready for hopping on the mainline train when it arrived. In the down direction however, dropping off coaches for adding on to down branch trains was more common, e.g. the Cornish Riviera Express dropped off coaches (brake composites, usually) for Kingsbridge, Newquay, Falmouth and St Ives. Note these 'dropoffs' were usually only for the most prestigious branches.

 

 

A really good point being made here. The other thing to consider is that frequently coaches were only dropped off on Saturdays. For weekdays and Sundays changing trains was the norm. 

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I should have mentioned that the mixed trains were on the 1923 and 1948 schedules for Hemyock on the Culm Valley Branch. In 1923 there were 4 mixed and 1 passenger down trains and 3 mixed and 1 passenger up trains. By 1948 there were 4 mixed and, 1 freight, and 2 passenger down trains and 4 mixed, and 3 passenger up trains. 
 

I also just read about slip coach operations, an interesting approach for sure.

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2 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

Adding coaches to up trains took a bit of flaffing about and took time. It was quicker for the branch passengers to have disembarked their branch train, ready for hopping on the mainline train when it arrived. In the down direction however, dropping off coaches for adding on to down branch trains was more common, e.g. the Cornish Riviera Express dropped off coaches (brake composites, usually) for Kingsbridge, Newquay, Falmouth and St Ives. Note these 'dropoffs' were usually only for the most prestigious branches.

 

What happened to these "dropped off" coaches if they weren't re-attached on the up journey?

I can visualize loads of odd coaches piling up at the end of branches.......:(

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Here's an up working with a Saint:

 

GWR_4038_on_Cornish_Riviera_Express.jpg

 

Hmmm, not so sure that is an up working.

 

 

Edit: oh dear, the truly awful software has interpreted an additional post as an edit to a previous one, and inserted it in the wrong timeline - I give up
 

 

 

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12 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

Mixed trains were very rare on the GWR by the 1930s. The Shipston Branch comes to mind, but the definition of 'mixed' is somewhat complex.

Point of order, MissP.  The Shipston branch lost its passenger service in 1929!

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56 minutes ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

If you have Paul Karau's GWR Branch Line Termini, he gives the detailed working of each of the lines concerned. The same applies to some lines covered in GWR Journal.

 

Tetbury is another example of a line where mixed trains were used.

 Yes, I have both volumes. Unfortunately the seller (Goldstone Books) I bought vol. 1 from sent me a copy that had been in a moldy environment so I have it stashed in a bucket with bicarb powder to try and get enough of the smell out to even read it! The schedules, track diagrams for each station, and building plans are a great resource along with the photos and his descriptions of operations and the actual locos used over the years. Something every GWR modeler should own.

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20 hours ago, melmerby said:

What happened to these "dropped off" coaches if they weren't re-attached on the up journey?

I can visualize loads of odd coaches piling up at the end of branches.......:(

 

They would have been worked to back to the junction via a normal service and from there to the location where they were needed next. In the case of places like Newquay there would often be a challenge just getting the number of coaches needed due to different loadings for up and down services. 

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It is possible to confuse ‘mixed’ trains and tail traffic.  A mixed train can only run where it is authorised by the relevant sectional appendix, and consists of the loco, passenger stock with passenger guard in brake vehicle, then loose coupled and possibly unfitted freight vehicles behind the passenger stock, a goods brake van with a goods guard riding in it bringing up the rear.  On the GW/WR, the obvious example is Hemyock.  

 

This is not the same as tail traffic, which can be any vacuum fitted vehicle including ‘XP’ rated goods vehicles.  Tail traffic can be attached anytime any place anywhere provided loadings are not exceeded and the train’s speed does not exceed the speed of the slowest vehicle.  No goods brake van is needed.  Milk traffic was often handled in this way on branches. 

 

GW branches handled a wide variety of traffic in as wide a variety of ways, and the best bet is to follow the example of the branch you are modelling or that your layout is based on/inspired by. In most cases the passenger traffic catered to the needs of the passengers throughout the day, but a single out and back journey shunting out all the goods yards along the branch, usually in the post rush hour later morning was sufficient for the general merchandise and coal traffic.  A very long or busy branch might need an afternoon pickup as well, but this was rare. 

 

Specific traffic from private sidings might require an evening clearance separately from the booked pickups, and quarries and collieries needed to be cleared regularly as well, but once a day is sufficient for most branches, especially the bucolic idylls we like to model!

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23 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

 

Hmmm, not so sure that is an up working.

 

 

Edit: oh dear, the truly awful software has interpreted an additional post as an edit to a previous one, and inserted it in the wrong timeline - I give up
 

 

 

That is quite a well known, previously published, photo and is of a train on the Down Main Line near Acton.  In fact to be very precise the train is on the Down Main Line to the east of Acton and is, I think, nearer to Friars Junction than it is to Acton (confirmed in some respects by the signal visible in the background).

 

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

 

It is possible to confuse ‘mixed’ trains and tail traffic.  A mixed train can only run where it is authorised by the relevant sectional appendix, and consists of the loco, passenger stock with passenger guard in brake vehicle, then loose coupled and possibly unfitted freight vehicles behind the passenger stock, a goods brake van with a goods guard riding in it bringing up the rear.  On the GW/WR, the obvious example is Hemyock.  

 

This is not the same as tail traffic, which can be any vacuum fitted vehicle including ‘XP’ rated goods vehicles.  Tail traffic can be attached anytime any place anywhere provided loadings are not exceeded and the train’s speed does not exceed the speed of the slowest vehicle.  No goods brake van is needed.  Milk traffic was often handled in this way on branches. 

 

GW branches handled a wide variety of traffic in as wide a variety of ways, and the best bet is to follow the example of the branch you are modelling or that your layout is based on/inspired by. In most cases the passenger traffic catered to the needs of the passengers throughout the day, but a single out and back journey shunting out all the goods yards along the branch, usually in the post rush hour later morning was sufficient for the general merchandise and coal traffic.  A very long or busy branch might need an afternoon pickup as well, but this was rare. 

 

Specific traffic from private sidings might require an evening clearance separately from the booked pickups, and quarries and collieries needed to be cleared regularly as well, but once a day is sufficient for most branches, especially the bucolic idylls we like to model!

This has been covered very extensively in the past on RMweb although alas I don't have any links to those items - a search might find the relevant threads which in one case in one my posts also cover various changes to what was allowed to be conveyed as tail traffic and how it was to be marshalled.

 

Mixed Trains were authorised in the Working Timetable  because logically that is the only place in which the authority to run a train as a Mixed Train could be accurately advised to staff on the ground.  The reason for this was that on some lines only a train or a number of trains would be authorised to run as a Mixed Train but not all trains on that line were so authorised.    The reason for this was because the Company (or BR Region) had to comply with various conditions for the operation of Mixed Trains and therefore there was a discipline to the way in which they were authorised on any particular line or section of line.   A Mixed Train could legitimately run as a Passenger Train by the simple expedient of not conveying a freight portion but a Passenger Traincould not run as a Mixed Train - only trains shown in the Working Timetable as Mixed were permitted to run as Mixed Trains.   Incidentally there was not always a requirement for a Guard to travel in the passenger portion of the train but a Guard was obviously always required in the freight brakevan formed at the rear of the train.

 

The use of Mixed Trains depended very much on the amount of traffic on offer and also in some respects the signalling capacity of the line as well as physical features such as heavy gradients which could mitigate against authority being given.  The definitely not only survived after WWII but even into the nationalised era on some GWR lines.  For example the Winter 1948 Section 1 Service Time Table (the GWR name for a Working Timetable) shows Mixed Trains authorised on the following branches -  

 

Bourne End - Marlow, 1 daily in each direction (show as 'suspended' in that timetable period), Auto Mixed 

Cholsey & M - Wallingford,  3 daily in each direction, Auto Mixed.  Mixed trains continued on the Wallingford branch well into the 1950s, possibly even until the passenger service was withdrawn in 1959

Kidlington - Blenheim & Woodstock  - 1 daily Auto Mixed

 

One oddity about the above list is  that in the case of all of these three branches the authorised Mixed Trains were Auto trains - that was just a quirk of the way in which the lines were worked as conventional loco hauled trans obviously could also be authorised to run as Mixed Trains.  One interesting point for modellers is that auto trains were permitted to shunt freight vehicles without the auto-trailer first being detached although clearly these long vehicles were prohibited from some sidings etc.

 

Incidentally although it wasn't on the WR I travelled in a Mixed Train on BR (on the West Highland Extension) at Easter 1969 although it was in some ways a little odd because two of the three wagons (unfitted 16T MIns) were barrier wagons for the 45 ton tank car marshalled between them.

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I like the idea of a mixed autotrain in 1948!

 

I can visualise  < Loco + Autotrain + Vans + BV

 

could it also be

 

                     < Autotrain + Loco + Vans + BV

 

Where  <  indicates direction of travel

 

Cheers 

 

John

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Also important to bear in mind that a mixed train was (usually) guaranteed to run even if there was no goods offering, hence what was on paper a mixed train might run as a passenger train 99% of the time. The much rarer case of a goods train with passenger accommodation attached was liable to be cancelled if there was no goods to carry.

 

Back on topic of through coaches, they weren't always necessarily detached at the nearest main line junction. For example at one stage the through coaches to Kingswear off the Cornishman were detached at Exeter. They could then be hauled by whatever was available. There are photos of them on Flickr typically hauled by a Mogul, sometimes a Prairie, or sometimes a 4-6-0 if it was 5 or more coaches. There was a photo in RM decades ago of 3 through coaches at Dawlish hauled by a 94XX sporting Class A headlamps.

 

Cheers
David

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5 hours ago, john dew said:

I like the idea of a mixed autotrain in 1948!

 

I can visualise  < Loco + Autotrain + Vans + BV

 

could it also be

 

                     < Autotrain + Loco + Vans + BV

 

Where  <  indicates direction of travel

 

Cheers 

 

John

 

Very likely if there was a return working.

 

 

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In the book 'The early years of Western Region Steam', there are several pictures of the Calne branch. Two of them show the daily 'Sausage and Souls' train from Calne to Chippenham made up of Autocoach-loco-vans, with the vans containing the daily output of the Harris factory at Calne.

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Good answers above.     I believe the essential difference between a Mixed train a passenger with tail traffic is a Mixed has no vacuum brake on the goods wagons so has to have a brake van on the rear.,  I expect speeds had to be limited as per a similar part fitted freight, but many of the branches had a lower speed limit than an unfitted freight..    Tail traffic had to be vacuum fitted, with four wheel vehicles this usually limited the speed pf the train to 60 mph did not need a brake van on the back. I believe only XP rated wagons could run as tail traffic in BR days.

 

Coaching stock was either the same coaches for years like Culm Valley, or six different sets per day  (eight if you include the through trains) on the Kingham branch from Cheltenham.

 

Through coaches  and slip coaches (pre ww 2) were fascinating, as they seldom went straight back, often returning as part of a slow train when they arrived as part of an express, and not always by the same route.  I have a wild Swan book of GWR Carriage workings 1930 and though it just skims the surface it is very interesting. 

 

If you model a sleepy branch and have cash burning a hole in your pocket you could always buy several identical coaches and load them with different passengers to represent different services.   I am never likely to have that issue but I can always dream of winning Euro Millions, though that would need a miracle as I never buy a ticket

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11 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

The use of Mixed Trains depended very much on the amount of traffic on offer and also in some respects the signalling capacity of the line as well as physical features such as heavy gradients which could mitigate against authority being given.  The definitely not only survived after WWII but even into the nationalised era on some GWR lines.  For example the Winter 1948 Section 1 Service Time Table (the GWR name for a Working Timetable) shows Mixed Trains authorised on the following branches -  

 

Bourne End - Marlow, 1 daily in each direction (show as 'suspended' in that timetable period), Auto Mixed 

Cholsey & M - Wallingford,  3 daily in each direction, Auto Mixed.  Mixed trains continued on the Wallingford branch well into the 1950s, possibly even until the passenger service was withdrawn in 1959

Kidlington - Blenheim & Woodstock  - 1 daily Auto Mixed

 

There is a photo of the Marlow - Bourne End mixed train in 1954 below. It does indeed show an Auto-train as you mention.

 

nas_1411spadeoak.jpg

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The Marlow pic makes me wonder whether the train is actually a goods train, the autotrailer being present because staff couldn't be bothered to detach it from the loco. Understandable, bearing in mind the Marlow to Bourne End journey was a matter of a few minutes.

 

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