GWR branchline coach operations

[BWsTrains]

28 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

Plenty of the Airfix/Hornby B sets on eBay, and not too expensive.  They are showing their age a bit now but can be worked up to a greater or lesser extent; painting the interior and replacing the buffers with better cast whitemetal retrofits will lift them considerably and is not difficult.  eBay sometimes has the ancient Keyser plastic construction kit E116 flat ended B sets, usually made up.  With the addition of a floor and interior, and similar embellishments such as new buffers, these too can be made into reasonably acceptable models.  Also from Keyser and occasionally available is the A31 auto trailer, a whitemetal kit, again usually made up, but very heavy.  It also needs working up with a floor and interior, but if you can find one that has been put together reasonably neatly it is not the worst model ever made, for all it's 70 year old credentials, and with detailing can be made into something worthwhile.  The worst feature is the thickness of the body sides.

 

It is a moot point as to whether Hornby will eventually release new toolings to better current standards for the A30 auto trailer and the B set, after all the current release of the A30 is basically the same as the decades old Airfix model, though it does have better wheels.  They are probably happy with the sales for it and find it more profitable than the situation in which the sales have to defray the cost of a new tooling.  They recently re-issued the 'shorty' clerestories, 1961 models, still with the wrong bogies and no interior detail, on this basis.  If this is the case you will be no worse off sourcing the coaches on eBay.  Check that the auto trailers have all their buffers and ventilators, though, as these tend to go missing!

 

Locos are a problem in the case of the 48xx 0-4-2T, which has proved a difficult thing for RTR producers to get right.  The old Airfix is still the body tooling used by Hornby, but the mechanism has been updated, because the old Airfix mech tended to run into problems with it's sprung plunger pickups sticking.  But the updated mech has had problems too, as has the mech of the short-lived DJM 48xx.  It is difficult to get the balance of a rigid 0-4-2 chassis right; the answer is full compensation but this is unlikley to be featured on an RTR model for cost reasons. 

 

Bachmann locos are a better bet, much more reliable, and 64xx auto, 45xx, and 4575, though the 4575 is not really a branch line loco.  The 64xx was not introduced until 1932, but fortunately the Bachmann model represents the earlier batch.

 

Hi Johnster,

 

I've the newer Hornby Autocoach which has some minor but visible improvements and I've some Dart Castings to further make good various omissions (as per a topic by Phil Parker that I've got stashed away)

 

Regarding Locos, I've "been there done that". Avoided the DJM 48xx and after two tries settled on the Hornby release R2778 (4869) from about 2008 which doesn't have the Centre of Gravity issues of the latest release. I then upgraded it by replacing the traction tyre wheels and adding wheel wipers to give decent all wheel pickup and a stay alive for good measure. Now is it a pretty good runner and meets my needs. Separately I've an old Ks 48xx kit and have bought a Comet chassis kit / high level drive but COVID has put that project on hold as I need some help.

 

As you say the Bachmanns are all good and I've more than enough of the various classes. Motive power is least of my worries, now if only I could find a B-Set.

 

BTW buying off E-Bay destination Oz has become very expensive as they load even the cheapest items e.g. mags with ridiculous postage charges.

 

Always appreciate your insights,

 

Regards,

 

Colin

 

[DCB]

The modelling stereotype of a 'typical' bucolic West Country GW branch line is just about impossible to find in actual full size practice.   The typical OO gauge GWR branch line, with its lined green 14XX and Brown and Cream Autocoach shuttling from branch bay to junction every 15 minutes with lined green Panniers with Brown Cream B sets arriving at the main platform with the through coaches off the Cornish Riviera express attached is pure fantasy.  Many of the branches closed before lined green came in.  Lined Green Panniers, Lined Green 45XX, B sets, Auto coaches (admittedly in BR Red) did operate together but you're really looking at Plymouth / Tavistock / Launceston.   That only scraped in because sometimes there was a spare Plymouth Area 64XX in lined green, usually occupied in main line Autotrains, from Marsh Mills to Saltash, around which was rostered to work on the line

Otherwise the Cornish and West Devon ( west of Totnes)  branches were basically 45XX and pairs of brake composites,  East of Totnes 14XX with Autocoaches, Ashburton had 14XX on passenger and 44XX later 45XX on goods  41XX worked to Mortonhampstead on occasion.   57XX became branch engines in 1951 when someone shifted them from Blue to Yellow route availability to solve an acute shortage of small locos, and they then displaced 45XX etc but not in Devon or Cornwall to any great extent.   Post 51 the RTR loco position isn't too bad,  My Hattons 14XX is nice and easily hauls one Auto coach on the level or  downhill, I have a box full of dead Airfix/ Dapol/ Hornby 14XX and a nice K's chassis Triang Motor Airfix body mongrel, and I can't work out why no one has yet produced a 6 wheel drive 14XX  to solve the back heavy and lack of traction issues,  The Bachmann 64XX carves into a 74XX quite nicely and the Bachmann 45XX is nice .  Pre mid 30s OO RTR is dire with no small panniers, The Hornby 27XX is a big Pannier same size as a 57XX,  There are no RTR 517  or "1400" class 0-4-2Ts or Metros.   Dean Goods and 2251 were not branch engines, nor were Bulldogs or Dukes. 

[Hal Nail]

7 hours ago, DCB said:

East of Totnes 14XX with Autocoaches, 

St Blazey in Cornwall had 1419 throughout with a variety of auto trailers over the years. Which reminds me something I've been meaning to ask for ages, where a branch didnt have specifically allocated stock, how often was it changed? Did something just stay on the branch until requiring attention?

[DCB]

Yes 1419 was at St Blazey, the only Cornish based 14XX  but it worked from Lostwithiel to Fowey along the estuary.  Fowey was a through station as the line continued over the hills back to St Blazey a line notable for the use of  a pair of 42XX 2-8-0Ts  on china clay trains.   I often wondered what happened when 1419 was unavailable but I notice from the 1955 ABC that Laira had a 14XX with no obvious duties so maybe that deputised, or maybe a pannier and they had to run round every trip.

Edited September 17, 2021 by DCB
Typo St Austell for Lostwithiel

[Hal Nail]

38 minutes ago, DCB said:

Yes 1419 was at St Blazey, the only Cornish based 14XX  but it worked from St Austell to Fowey along the estuary.  Fowey was a through station as the line continued over the hills back to St Blazeya line notable for the use of  a pair of 42XX 2-8-0Ts  on china clay trains.   I often wondered what happened when 1419 was unavailable but I notice from the 1955 ABC that Laira had a 14XX with no obvious duties so maybe that deputised, or maybe a pannier and they had to run round every trip

It was the Lostwithiel passenger service that 1419 worked although I did read somewhere the first and last movements were the other route. I dont know if that was light or with the coach though.

 

1408 and 1468 were both photographed deputising: I think the Laira locos worked from Yelverton to Tavistock.

[BMacdermott]

On 02/10/2019 at 11:38, Karhedron said:

The comments with the photo state that this is the 3.20 p.m. mixed train from Marlow on the 24th May 1954. A quick check of the WTT should show if this service included passengers or not. Does anyone have the 1954 WTT for the London Division?

Hello Matt

 

Just noticed this!

 

The 1958 WTT shows the 1.00pm Marlow-Bourne End as Mixed.

 

Brian

[dibber25]

On 30/09/2019 at 20:37, rovex said:

I think it depends on the branch line. Some branches for example St Ives would get coaches off the Paddington train which would be worked down the branch. Some would have a dedicated coach which simply shuttled down the branch to the junction or major station. I think Watlington branch would be an example of that. Others would have whole trains that came from a major terminus -the Windsor branch would I expect be an example of this.

 

I've seen somewhere I think it was the three volume series on modelling GWR branches that showed the workings for an autocoach service. Which started on one branch then up another before travelling along a third.

 

However I expect that you have in mind the typical bucolic branch line most of us GWR types model. Depending on era then I expect you would probably see a cascaded down old corridor coach or ex slip coach shuttling back and forth 

Rovex

But St.Ives only had one through Paddington train - at least in BR times - it was only only on summer Saturdays and was in fact the whole CRE apart from a couple of through coaches that went on to Penzance. The rest of the time the branch had its own non-corridor stock, trains being strengthened at peak times with extra coaches but simply running back and forth to the main line. Unlike the SR with its through coaches to branch termini , the Western ran comparatively few through trains to minor branch lines and passengers changed trains at the junction station. Windsor & Eton Central had only one through Paddington train in the morning and evening peaks, as, I believe did Henley on Thames although Henley may have had one or two workings through to Reading General. (CJL)

[Harlequin]

Hi Colin,

 

Getting back to coaching stock for a 1930s Westcountry branch line that’s more substantially laid than the Culm Valley, you could consider the upcoming Kernow Railmotor. I believe Railmotors still operated shuttle services out of Exeter in this period, over at least part of the Moretonhampstead branch, for instance.

 

Regarding Westcountry B Sets (B sets had different formations in different GWR divisions, as you pointed out above) you could still consider the new Hornby 57’ bow ended non-corridor stock (e.g. a left & right pair of brake thirds?) - if you’re willing to sprinkle some Rule1 dust on them.  They are very good models, more refined than the old Airfix “B set”, and both Hattons and Kernow have had them on offer recently.

Edited September 18, 2021 by Harlequin

[BWsTrains]

3 hours ago, Harlequin said:

Hi Colin,

 

Getting back to coaching stock for a 1930s Westcountry branch line that’s more substantially laid than the Culm Valley, you could consider the upcoming Kernow Railmotor. I believe Railmotors still operated shuttle services out of Exeter in this period, over at least part of the Moretonhampstead branch, for instance.

 

Regarding Westcountry B Sets (B sets had different formations in different GWR divisions, as you pointed out above) you could still consider the new Hornby 57’ bow ended non-corridor stock (e.g. a left & right pair of brake thirds?) - if you’re willing to sprinkle some Rule1 dust on them.  They are very good models, more refined than the old Airfix “B set”, and both Hattons and Kernow have had them on offer recently.

 

Hi Phil,

 

I followed that very line of thought last evening.

 

I did a comparison of the 57' non-corridor Collett stock with the various releases of B-Sets (thanks to the gwr.org topic on same) and this convinced me that they would be an excellent compromise. I picked up the matched pair you suggested on Hattons for GBP 33 each (less the GST in my case so 27.50 net). The decision was helped by my having several of the mainline corridor Colletts and they are very fine models. I couldn't see myself going back to buying more Airfix era stock as an alternative.

 

Main difference to the B-Set is the lack of a FIRST compartment which is a pity but one problem I'll need to live with.

 

Colin 

 

Edited September 18, 2021 by BWsTrains

[The Johnster]

If rule one allows you to use Hornby Collett suburbans as a B set (I happily use them as South Wales coaches in a similar way; they are excellent models far too good to leave in the shop!), I think it would be acceptable to label a compartment in each coach as first class, repaint the seats, and label one as the smoker; full B set provision of accommodation!  They even come with an NEM close coupler bar. 

Edited September 18, 2021 by The Johnster

[BWsTrains]

21 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

If rule one allows you to use Hornby Collett suburbans as a B set (I happily use them as South Wales coaches in a similar way; they are excellent models far too good to leave in the shop!), I think it would be acceptable to label a compartment in each coach as first class, repaint the seats, and label one as the smoker; full B set provision of accommodation!  They even come with an NEM close coupler bar. 

 

My sentiment exactly on several fronts, and I'm familiar with the close couplings as I use them to advantage on my corridor stock.

 

I've put up images of both coaches side by side and allowing that the B-Set from Hornby is of the later 61+ft type, it's not a bad match at all. It seems earlier releases of B-Sets were first 57' then 58' which further improves the match with my proxy.

 

[The Johnster]

The 57’ B sets were E116, a different style of flat-ended early Colletts with the first class compartments at the inner ends, different window profile and fishbelly bogies.  K’s used to do a rather crude but accurately sized plastic kit.

[BWsTrains]

I recall the 2nd batch were 58' and bow ended

[Mike_Walker]

Please don't go using Hornby suburbans - it'll put them or anyone else doing us a proper 21st century standard model! 

[BWsTrains]

2 hours ago, Mike_Walker said:

Please don't go using Hornby suburbans - it'll put them or anyone else doing us a proper 21st century standard model! 

Not much chance of either I'd say.

 

Hornby had announced a 2020 re-release of the old toolings (R4549B /C) but then later pulled them from release (according to the Hattons listing). That doesn't auger at all well for any new investment in B-Sets any time soon (ever?).

 

There seems to be much more interest (and money) chasing more modern stock. I just got an ad for the latest - BR MK2F Brake Second Open BR InterCity (Swallow) - DCC Fitted, discounted down to a tad over £80. That's nearly AUD 160 for one coach in a rake! STROOF!

 

 

[mdvle]

2 hours ago, BWsTrains said:

Hornby had announced a 2020 re-release of the old toolings (R4549B /C) but then later pulled them from release (according to the Hattons listing). That doesn't auger at all well for any new investment in B-Sets any time soon (ever?).

 

It all depends on why Hornby pulled them, which we don't know - it could be a lack of orders or it could be the tooling is damaged - or it even could be Hornby deciding to tool a new B-set.

 

That said anyone should be buying what suits there needs/compromises now rather than wait for a potential new model that may never show up.

 

2 hours ago, BWsTrains said:

There seems to be much more interest (and money) chasing more modern stock. I just got an ad for the latest - BR MK2F Brake Second Open BR InterCity (Swallow) - DCC Fitted, discounted down to a tad over £80. That's nearly AUD 160 for one coach in a rake! STROOF!

 

The Bachmann Mk2f has always been on the expensive side.

 

Then again, you won't want to look at US prototype prices - Athearn 2 months ago announced Surfliner cars which have a list price of £130...

 

 

[Steamport Southport]

We don't need to look at foreign prices.

 

We've already had RTR coaches costing £150 in the UK. That's not counting the hand built models.

 

http://www.locomotionmodels.com/exclusive-models/rolling-stock/lner-dynamometer-car-1938.htm

 

 

 

 

Jason

[Hal Nail]

11 hours ago, BWsTrains said:

I've put up images of both coaches side by side and allowing that the B-Set from Hornby is of the later 61+ft type, it's not a bad match at all.

The looe branch had 2 pairs of E135 branch sets which were similar to the newer Hornby suburbans with flush guards doors and curly grab rails by each passenger door. Although like the more common E140 they ran on 7ft bogies.

 

The two coach sets weren't handed though so I'd actually get two the same personally.

 

Personal choice whether you modify ends and bogies and end up with a total hybrid or run them untouched!

Edited September 18, 2021 by Hal Nail

[Siberian Snooper]

15 hours ago, Harlequin said:

Hi Colin,

 

Getting back to coaching stock for a 1930s Westcountry branch line that’s more substantially laid than the Culm Valley, you could consider the upcoming Kernow Railmotor. I believe Railmotors still operated shuttle services out of Exeter in this period, over at least part of the Moretonhampstead branch, for instance.

 

Regarding Westcountry B Sets (B sets had different formations in different GWR divisions, as you pointed out above) you could still consider the new Hornby 57’ bow ended non-corridor stock (e.g. a left & right pair of brake thirds?) - if you’re willing to sprinkle some Rule1 dust on them.  They are very good models, more refined than the old Airfix “B set”, and both Hattons and Kernow have had them on offer recently.

 

 

Without wishing to be too pedantic or split hairs, surely Exeter to Newton Abbot, via Heathfield is the Teign Valley line, Moretonhampstead would require a reversal at Heathfield, from Exeter.

 

 

Edited September 18, 2021 by Siberian Snooper

[BWsTrains]

Thanks to everyone, I've more than enough ideas and suggestions and consequently decisions have been made.

 

Occasionally it's nice to give an old topic a prod and have lots of interesting input. As it wasn't my topic in the fist place, let it wander where it will. It is a broad field

 

Colin

 

Edited September 18, 2021 by BWsTrains

[The Johnster]

After I'd spent several years bemoaning the fact that there was no RTR non-gangwayed stock out there that wasn't the Airfix etc. B set and that this was preventing the introduction of anything suitable for suburban work, while the other big 4 railways had such stock, Hornby left-fielded me completely by announcing the current Large Prairie and the 57' Collett suburban bowenders to go with it!  They got the coaches into the shops very quickly after the announcement, but the loco was delayed in order to get the new Hornby Terrier out in time to go head to head in competition with Rails', and then brought forward again when Dapol threw their Large Prairie hat into the ring along with their 43xx and Manor.

 

I think Mike Walker has got a point; the situation that I bemoaned is now reversed and I would have thought there was very little chance of retooled B sets to a decent modern standard from Hornby.  There may be more of a chance of something from Bachmann, who have several locos in their range that are perfectly suited to hauling them (57xx, 8750, 45xx, 56xx (Maerdy branch, Dowlais Cae Harris), 94xx (New Tredegar branch). 

 

Comet (Wizard) do etched brass kits for the same B set as the Airfix/Hornby, and for the E147, a later Collett flat-ended 58 footer.  They also do the correct diagram 57' bowender suburbans for South Wales 5-coach sets, similar in style but different in layout from the London/Birmingham area 4-coach sets Hornby do.  And several other GW non-gangwayed coaches; they are the most prolific source of such vehicles.  I have an E117 B set on my layout, it is a fairly simple kit to build, basically folding the etches to form the floor, solebars, sides, and ends, but they need care and fitting all those door handles, grab rails, and so on is faffy and time consuming. 

 

But if you want a 4mm RTR B set the Airfix/Hornby is the only game in town other than using Hornby Collett 57' brake thirds and only available second hand.  Good news if you are going down that route is that they are not uncommon and are usually fairly cheap.  I have a brake third and an all third made of cut'n'shuts of these coaches on my layout.

 

GW non-gangwayed stock is a problem for RTR manufacturers, because the lengths of many of the Churchward and Collett era coaches were not standard, unlike LMS period 1s or LNER Gresleys or Thompsons, and thus the RTR manufacturer cannot save money by using a common underframe for several different coaches of the same style.  This is paradoxically because of the GW's standardisation policy; as applied to coaches they standardised on the sizes of third and first class compartments, and the coaches tended to take their lengths from whatever combination of compartments featured on that particular diagram. 

Edited September 19, 2021 by The Johnster

[mdvle]

12 hours ago, The Johnster said:

I think Mike Walker has got a point; the situation that I bemoaned is now reversed and I would have thought there was very little chance of retooled B sets to a decent modern standard from Hornby.  There may be more of a chance of something from Bachmann, who have several locos in their range that are perfectly suited to hauling them (57xx, 8750, 45xx, 56xx (Maerdy branch, Dowlais Cae Harris), 94xx (New Tredegar branch).

 

Don't forget Dapol.

 

They recently (though Lionheart Trains) did B sets in O - specifically the Bristol B sets (pair of E140) and the Birmingham B sets (2x D109 + 2x E141).

 

So the interest of the product developer is there, and the prototype research is there - though it all may mean absolutely nothing (though perhaps the threat is enough to prompt Hornby into a retool?)

 

[RJS1977]

On 17/09/2021 at 18:23, dibber25 said:

But St.Ives only had one through Paddington train - at least in BR times - it was only only on summer Saturdays and was in fact the whole CRE apart from a couple of through coaches that went on to Penzance. The rest of the time the branch had its own non-corridor stock, trains being strengthened at peak times with extra coaches but simply running back and forth to the main line. Unlike the SR with its through coaches to branch termini , the Western ran comparatively few through trains to minor branch lines and passengers changed trains at the junction station. Windsor & Eton Central had only one through Paddington train in the morning and evening peaks, as, I believe did Henley on Thames although Henley may have had one or two workings through to Reading General. (CJL)

 

Henley at one time had more through services to/from Paddington during the Regatta, and quite extensive carriage sidings to handle them all.

[RJS1977]

On 17/09/2021 at 01:06, DCB said:

 Dean Goods and 2251 were not branch engines, nor were Bulldogs or Dukes. 

 

I'd beg to differ. Whilst many branch lines did not see a Dean Goods or a 2251, some did.

 

I've seen photos of Deans working some of the minor Cambrian branches in mid-Wales, likewise Karau's book on the Wallingford Branch includes a photo of a 2251 on the line. So there is justification there if you want to run one on your layout! 

[The Johnster]

While 2251s and Dean Goods were not branch locos in general, and one must consider that the definition of a 'branch loco' is a bit elastic to start wtih, as is 'branch line', rural branches occasionally featured through workings to or from places beyond the junction, such as cattle or broccili specials, or passenger excursions, that would use locomotives capable of the entire journey so long as they were route available for the branch.  Urban and industrial branches were usually route available to all classes, as was the entired Newport Division's route map in South Wales, so a rugby special or an excursion to Bristol zoo might feature empty stock and big tender locos from a main line depot working tender first to the terminus and taking up the working from there. 

 

The Porthcawl Branch allowed 43xx and tank locos up to 42xx for excursion workings, and the daily Cardiff commuter service was hauled by Bulldogs pre-war and Collett 31xx large prairies post-war; one would not consider these as branch locos in the normal sense even if one could objectively define this.  Porthcawl also saw BR standard class 4MT 2-6-4Ts on the daily Swansea commuters, after the LNWR's Paxton St. loco shed closed and the locos were transferred to Landore, which promptly closed for rebuilding into a diesel depot so that Landore's steam locos were transferred to Neath Court Sart.  On one occasion a Fowler 2-6-4T turned up. 

 

Seaside destination branches also featured through working from distant main line locations, especially on summer Saturdays, and Kingswear saw Kings on through trains from Paddington.  Barry Island saw anything and everything short of Kings and 47xx, including LNWR G2a 0-8-0s on excursions from Tredegar.  The Lambourn Branch featured tender locos such as 2251s and Dean Goods hauling auto trailiers because of the traffic requirement for stock that could be accessed by retractable steps from low level halt platforms and the need to carry heavy tail traffic on an ad hoc basis because of the horseboxes needed for the branch's connection with racehorse training.  More or less everything modellers think of as rules for GW branch lines was broken somewhere or other. 

 

Typical GW branch lines were, typically, atypical, and only atypically typical...