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GWR branchline coach operations


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20 hours ago, Andy Kirkham said:

 

Here's a nice photo of Ebbw Vale, which certainly bears out Mike's point about the restricted site. Was it still double track for freight traffic at this point, even through the station has only one platform?

 

gwent - gwr ebbw vale sta

 

Ebbw Vale station was a rather complex arrangement - to say the least.   This photo is looking north so at the platform is the Up & Down Main Line which was a single line from  Ebbw Vale Sidings South  The line on the left departed from Sidings South as the Up Goods Line but the part of it this side of the crossover visible in the photo was the Up & Down Passenger Loop and beyond the crossover it was the Up & Down Goods Loop.  You can see the goods shed in the background and next to it is the Home Signal on the single line to the end on boundary with the LNWR & GWR Joint line just north of Nantyglo.  The joint line connected with the LNWR 'Heads of The Valleys' Abergavenny - Merrthyr route at Brynmawr.  A few passenger services turned round at Ebbw Vale but generally trains ran through to Brynmawr although it no doubt changed over the years.

 

One oddity at Ebbw Vale was the use of banjo signals in the tightly restricted space of the cutting immediately south of the point from which the photo was taken.  incidentally the width of the goods yard was also constrained by the narrowness of the site.

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On 20/09/2021 at 01:25, BWsTrains said:

I reckon it is very hard to faithfully model an actual BLT setting

This is one reason that I've chosen to model a preserved line, rather than an original line at some time in the past. Preserved lines have plenty of action, even on a former single track branch line. They pack in more locos, more stock and more activity than most of those lines would ever have seen historically. They give you the opportunity to mix locos and stock from many eras - and it is not out of place to have some humongous express locos trundling in to a single platform terminus. Just look at the trains the GWSR haul into sleepy Broadway today...

 

Empty platforms? Not likely - there are plenty of folk milling around even when there are no trains due. Plus the volunteers looking after the place.

 

Perhaps the one area that is less well served is the humble freight train, since few preserved lines have any freight traffic. However, many preserved lines have their freight enthusiasts and have exhibition freight trains - no pinch bars or loose shunting, however! No so much use for weathering, I'm sorry - the preservation boys tend to like "pristine". Although there are always the unrestored wrecks... And then again, the preserved lines certainly have engineering trains, though usually with more modern stock and more typically moved using a diesel.

 

I was given the Pen & Sword book on the Severn Valley Railway for my recent birthday (and an excellent book it is...). It's great because it first deals with the history of the line before preservation - with lots of old photos. The contrast of the passenger traffic then - typically small trains or railcars - with the regular fare today is amazing. 7 or 8 coach train behind a Castle or an A4 - very nice. And they have that stunning rake of LNER teak coaches - utterly out of place historically, but a wonder to behold crossing the Victoria Bridge at Arley. (It would be wonderful to have the space to model something like that...)

 

And because of the pressure to do all the preservation activities on-site, there is every excuse to have engine sheds, engineering sheds and so on, with some activity all the time. Not sure I fancy modelling the enormous carriage shed at Kidderminster, however. And as much stock as you can muster. Makes shunting operations into an art form.

 

Yours,  Mike.

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On 20/09/2021 at 12:18, The Stationmaster said:

 But on the nearby Marlow branch it was (excursions aside) a 14XX or nothing - until you changed at Bourne End and then it could be behind a 61XX if the 14XX wasn't working through to Maidenhead.  Not much further away the Watlington branch was usually the preserve of 57XX panniers, except when an ex LNEr 0-6-0 was substituted.

 

Marlow was one of those rare stations that did actually have a bay platform at the terminus that was occasionally used for passenger trains. I am not certain but it may have been built to allow the shuttle to Bourne End to operate when the main platform was occupied by regatta specials. The only photo I have seen of it in use was during a railtour in 1954. 

 

London Railway Society: Diesel excursion 26/9/54 GWR Collett Flying Banana railcar no. W13 was used throughout and is depicted here at Marlow station. [Mike Morant collection]

 

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On 19/09/2021 at 17:16, The Stationmaster said:

I wonder where the ladies' bicycle event was taking place as that very definitely was not at Henley


Yes, the train was interesting, as was the chap with wheelbarrow in the midst of all those poshly-dressed passengers, but the synchronised cycling is what I want more of.

 

(This thread is very educational to people like me who have come very late indeed to a growing interest in the GWR, so thank you all for it.)

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8 hours ago, Nearholmer said:


Yes, the train was interesting, as was the chap with wheelbarrow in the midst of all those poshly-dressed passengers, but the synchronised cycling is what I want more of.

 

(This thread is very educational to people like me who have come very late indeed to a growing interest in the GWR, so thank you all for it.)

 

Funny thing really, the thread had sat undisturbed in a quiet sleepy corner of RMWeb for just under 2 years when I needed a simple answer to what appeared to be the original intent of the Topic. Since that gentle prod last week it's taken on a life of its own and 3 new pages, wandering well beyond the supposed boundaries. One of the joys of this place, most educational indeed.

 

I've found more than I'd ever need on how / how not to design a GWR Branchline, which coaches would suit, what models might never see the light of day and most importantly not to stuff the platform full of passengers.  And that's even before all the detours O/T :sungum:

Edited by BWsTrains
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20 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 

Marlow was one of those rare stations that did actually have a bay platform at the terminus that was occasionally used for passenger trains. I am not certain but it may have been built to allow the shuttle to Bourne End to operate when the main platform was occupied by regatta specials. The only photo I have seen of it in use was during a railtour in 1954. 

 

London Railway Society: Diesel excursion 26/9/54 GWR Collett Flying Banana railcar no. W13 was used throughout and is depicted here at Marlow station. [Mike Morant collection]

 

Or as they might say in pantomime - 'Oh no it didn't'.  Yes the platform at Marlow had two faces but the back face was a siding accessed via handpoints so it very definitely wasn't a passenger train bay line.  That was seemingly the case at any time in its history as the signalling - renewals apart - changed very little over the years and there is no evidence that I can find that it was ever protected from other yard sidings by trap points.   It could have been used to stable passenger stock but not, without a lot of messing about, be used for a passenger train.

 

The line was in any case reduced to One Engine in Steam working from May 1954 so if the railtour preceded that date the car has been shunted clear of the running line and stabled in that siding.

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Marlow has an intriguing feature: a "platform beyond the platform" with a dip between the two. Something nobody would dream of having in a freelance terminus. Is the further platform for a cattle dock? It seems an odd place to do loading/unoading as any vehicle stading  there would block the ruround loop.

 

JB0XYM.jpg.876d050efbf798f8206782614c692b93.jpg

Edited by Andy Kirkham
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Newport Pagnell station (Right, that’s LNWR; it’s off-topic! Stop it at once!) had a cattle-dock forming an extension of the platform, with the dock surface about a foot higher than the platform, which seems to have remained very low throughout its life. That whole terminus (goods yard in a former canal basin etc) was another ‘nothing like a CJF BLT’.

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7 hours ago, Andy Kirkham said:

Marlow has an intriguing feature: a "platform beyond the platform" with a dip between the two. Something nobody would dream of having in a freelance terminus. Is the further platform for a cattle dock? It seems an odd place to do loading/unoading as any vehicle stading  there would block the ruround loop.

 

JB0XYM.jpg.876d050efbf798f8206782614c692b93.jpg

Yes, it was a cattle dock - there was a cattle market opposite the station where the Royal British Legion is now.  This short platform is actually the last surviving relic of the old station as it supports an electricity substation.  I always thought it an odd place for a cattle dock too but I never saw it used after moving to Marlow in 1957.  Of course most of the Marlow Donkey workings were autos so it wasn't really a problem.

 

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Brixham was also slightly different from the normal BLT in that there was a fish dock at the stop blocks end of the single platform, a fish van was often attached behind the autocoach on the service to Churston,

 

cheers 

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6 hours ago, keefer said:

1933 25-inch OS map from NLS Maps:marlow.png.33c27c5df4d64a963fe70d3620c63d69.png

 

https://maps.nls.uk/view/104196706

 

Interesting to compare the above with the 1897 25" Map below. The Cattle Dock was clearly a long standing feature, not expected to be in use IF a runaround was required for a separate passenger service.

 

1969792086_MarlowStn1897OS25in.jpg.7b773fadab48905e45fa7077bfbb3e63.jpg

 

https://maps.nls.uk/view/104183729

 

Now reverting to Johnster's pointers for GWR BLTs, would there have been a weighbridge at the goods yard road entrance? If so, where exactly? Any photos?

Also what about a loading gauge?

There seems little room to position these to cover both the Goods Yard and Good Shed lines as they merge very near the exit line (see upper map)

 

Insights on these two items will be greatly appreciated.

 

Colin

 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, BWsTrains said:

 

Interesting to compare the above with the 1897 25" Map below. The Cattle Dock was clearly a long standing feature, not expected to be in use IF a runaround was required for a separate passenger service.

 

1969792086_MarlowStn1897OS25in.jpg.7b773fadab48905e45fa7077bfbb3e63.jpg

 

https://maps.nls.uk/view/104183729

 

Now reverting to Johnster's pointers for GWR BLTs, would there have been a weighbridge at the goods yard road entrance? If so, where exactly? Any photos?

Also what about a loading gauge?

There seems little room to position these to cover both the Goods Yard and Good Shed lines as they merge very near the exit line (see upper map)

 

Insights on these two items will be greatly appreciated.

 

Colin

 

 

 

 

The weighing machine is shown on the 1933 map ("W.M." and two rectangles for the office and the bridge itself) but not the 1897.

So we can assume it was either installed or moved from another position between those dates. The written histories probably give more detail.

 

Edited by Harlequin
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6 hours ago, BWsTrains said:

 

 

Also what about a loading gauge?

There seems little room to position these to cover both the Goods Yard and Good Shed lines as they merge very near the exit line (see upper map)

 

Insights on these two items will be greatly appreciated.

 

Once more Alamy Stock Photos is our friend

 

JB0XYN.jpg.309e5526ed1d9a5769618c11dcbb3dc7.jpg

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21 hours ago, Andy Kirkham said:

Marlow has an intriguing feature: a "platform beyond the platform" with a dip between the two. Something nobody would dream of having in a freelance terminus. Is the further platform for a cattle dock? It seems an odd place to do loading/unoading as any vehicle stading  there would block the ruround loop.

 

 

I think the GWR had an occasional fondness for putting some of the less used loading facilities where they would interfere with everyday operation - or what we might like to think of think of as 'everyday operation'.  The cattle dock at Twyford was situated on the bay platform run round loop and end or side loading docks frequently blocked part of the passenger operating facilities with traffic such as horses, in particular, being loaded or unloaded via passenger station platforms.  

 

Looking at the railway of the past 30 -40 years it's all too easy to forget that on many branch lines and other rural lines the passenger train service was a long way for today's clock face regular interval operation and there were sometimes gaps of several hours between trains.  Even in the early 1950s there was a gap of almost 2 hours in the late morning in the Monday -Friday passenger service on the Marlow branch and a similar gap on the Wallingford branch while Watlington only saw 4 passenger trains a day and had a gap of 3 hours late morning to early afternoon and Didcot - Newbury and the Lambourn branch were similar to these sort of patterns.  

 

In fact from a quick check round the timetable this late morning - early afternoon gap was quite common on Western branch lines and could sometimes be as long as 4 hours (e.g Brent - Kingsbridge winter timetable) although 2 -3 hours was the most common.   And of course a simpe reason for it - the trains service suited when folk needed to travel and the gaps were usually filled by at least one additional train on Saturdays.

 

So plenty of time to load or unload cattle ;)

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Here's one more of Marlow by Roger Joanes

Marlow station with auto-train. 22.3.60

And a link (because "Please do not share or post elsewhere without the permission of the copyright owner(s).")  to another that makes everything clear 

 

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/blue-diesels/50247231431/

 

What happened to the auto trailer when the loco was stabled in the shed? Did it remain coupled or stand in the platform or what?

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And here's another with a cattle pen  seemingly in a similar position. I wonder how many people recognise where it is (spoiler below). The shed on the right is the engine shed despite being occuped by a lorry.

s-l1600.jpg.76ffbed9ff05372ec27d4cea3912666c.jpg

 

 

1567689544_s-l1600(1).jpg.92e029ed64366611ae33daada65cb82c.jpg

 

It's Marlborough High Level closed in 1933

 

 

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44 minutes ago, Andy Kirkham said:

Here's one more of Marlow by Roger Joanes

 

And a link (because "Please do not share or post elsewhere without the permission of the copyright owner(s).")  to another that makes everything clear 

 

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/blue-diesels/50247231431/

 

What happened to the auto trailer when the loco was stabled in the shed? Did it remain coupled or stand in the platform or what?

There is one photo - taken during the day - with the engine over by the shed (for coal presumably) and the autocoach is not coupled to it.  The Marlow branch was one line where the full auto rodding tended at times not to be connected to the engine according somebody I knew who occasionally fired over the branch.

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18 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

There is one photo - taken during the day - with the engine over by the shed (for coal presumably) and the autocoach is not coupled to it.  The Marlow branch was one line where the full auto rodding tended at times not to be connected to the engine according somebody I knew who occasionally fired over the branch.

And the usual method of working the Marlow Donkey was with the loco at the Bourne End end although I have seen occasional pictures of it on the Marlow end.

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16 hours ago, Harlequin said:

The weighing machine is shown on the 1933 map ("W.M." and two rectangles for the office and the bridge itself) but not the 1897.

So we can assume it was either installed or moved from another position between those dates. The written histories probably give more detail.

 

 

Thanks, and as for what was involved at that "W.M" we need look no further than Mikkel's excellent model here:

 

019.jpg

 

 

 

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I am responding to comments much earlier in this thread about through carriage working.  The implication is that through carriages were only on down services and empty stock was worked back on what ever was available.  This is not true.  In the heyday of through carriage working, the carriage would be used to form the timetabled return working.  If you went on holiday from Manchester, for example, to the South West you had to get home again.  This was detailed in the "Through Carriage Programme" copies of which are held at Kew, the last being dated 1926.  Every carriage was allocated to a train; up and down.  Whether this changed in the 1930's I do not know.

 

 

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37 minutes ago, Brassey said:

I am responding to comments much earlier in this thread about through carriage working.  The implication is that through carriages were only on down services and empty stock was worked back on what ever was available.  This is not true.  In the heyday of through carriage working, the carriage would be used to form the timetabled return working.  If you went on holiday from Manchester, for example, to the South West you had to get home again.  This was detailed in the "Through Carriage Programme" copies of which are held at Kew, the last being dated 1926.  Every carriage was allocated to a train; up and down.  Whether this changed in the 1930's I do not know.

By the 1950's there was a daily "empty stock" train that ran from Plymouth to Old Oak Common. This left Plymouth at 12:15 a.m. This was a heavy enough train to be allocated time to take a banking engine over the South Devon Banks. There was also an empty stock train to convey restaurant and kitchen cars back to London from the South West after summer Saturdays. 

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2 hours ago, Brassey said:

I am responding to comments much earlier in this thread about through carriage working.  The implication is that through carriages were only on down services and empty stock was worked back on what ever was available.  This is not true. 

 

What goes down, must come up.

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16 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

What goes down, must come up.

Yes, but what went down sometimes came straight back up empty and went down again empty in order to come back up loaded.  Dn't forget that many of the longer distance workings were weekly so were effectively unbalanced because the down working arrived long after the up working had departed and few of the branch stations in the West of England had siding space to hold coaching stock from one weekend to the next.  Hence stock had to be worked away, probably forming part of a local branch service for part of its journey if it was the odd coach or so but then moved to somewhere where it could be stabled for a working the following weekend.  in other cases the coaches would be worked forming part of a succession of trains before they got back to London to start the circuit all over again.

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