GWR branchline coach operations

[Andy Kirkham]

On 19/09/2021 at 15:08, The Johnster said:

The Porthcawl Branch allowed 43xx and tank locos up to 42xx for excursion workings, and the daily Cardiff commuter service was hauled by Bulldogs pre-war and Collett 31xx large prairies post-war; one would not consider these as branch locos in the normal sense even if one could objectively define this.  Porthcawl also saw BR standard class 4MT 2-6-4Ts on the daily Swansea commuters, after the LNWR's Paxton St. loco shed closed and the locos were transferred to Landore, which promptly closed for rebuilding into a diesel depot so that Landore's steam locos were transferred to Neath Court Sart.  On one occasion a Fowler 2-6-4T turned up. 

.......

Typical GW branch lines were, typically, atypical, and only atypically typical...

 

Some pictures of Porthcawl station from here https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/photos/porthcawl-station . I think some of the pictures captioned as Porthcawl New station actually show the old station

 

Judging by these pictures, Porthcawl was the most bleak and charmless of all GW branch termini - the building seemingly a barn with a corrugated irin roof

 

 

 

 

Edited September 25, 2021 by Andy Kirkham

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

Yes, but what went down sometimes came straight back up empty and went down again empty in order to come back up loaded. 

 

Indeed. But @Brassey's example involves through working of one company's carriage to a destination on another company's lines. I imagine that in such a case, the working would be arranged so that the carriage worked back in revenue service as soon as might be.

[MidlandRed]

I’m surprised no one has mentioned the St Ives branch (or it may have been covered to death elsewhere) - this page on the Cornwall Railways web site has some interesting detail, including on rationalisation, dieselisation, through coaches and freight operation. 
 

http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/st-ives-branch.html
 

I didn’t see St Ives until a family holiday in the mid 60s - when there was only one track remaining (I think) but all the other buildings and platforms remained in place - and the normal service shuttle was run by a cast off South Wales class 116 (one of the 50847-9 etc group transferred to Cornwall in 1964). I didn’t see a class 121/122 for the whole holiday - I’m guessing the summer timetable required 3 car units owing to the holiday traffic and the single cars were a winter feature - driving trailer W56289 was parked up in the sidings at St Erth for the duration - presumably as additional accommodation if required. 
 

It’s surprising to read that initial dieselisation occurred using class 22 direct replacement for steam (including double headed - presumably for the through train); and a perception that the class 122s, when they arrived, weren’t terribly reliable (though they did attempt to tow freight wagons with them which may have contributed to woes). 
 

An interesting page and set of photos. 

Edited September 25, 2021 by MidlandRed

[The Johnster]

2 hours ago, Andy Kirkham said:

 

Some pictures of Porthcawl station from here https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/photos/porthcawl-station . I think some of the pictures captioned as Porthcawl New station actually show the old station

 

Judging by these pictures, Porthcawl was the most bleak and charmless of all GW branch termini - the building seemingly a barn with a corrugated irin roof

 

 

 

 

 

It could certainly feel a bit exposed in a northeasterly wind!

 

On the Getty link, photos nos.7 and 9 are of the old station, and no.8 is looking southward towards the new station from the old station footbridge.  The old station was never a terminus in the sense of stop blocks, as the railway continued southwards to the dock sidings.  These, after the dock was closed in 1898, became used for empty stock storage during the summer season, and a triangle was put in to enable locos to turn.  The largest tender locos permitted were Bulldogs and 43xx moguls; tank locos up to 72xx were allowed and excursions worked by 42xx occasionally turned up.

 

The new station opened in 1903 and was very much designed with long excursion trains in mind, 3 platforms of which the 'island' platform had no buildings or shelter.  The headshunt for the triangle extended a few yards to the south of the station, within a stone's throw of the esplanade.  The carriage sidings were the old coal hoist feed roads and were on embankments at a higher level than the platform roads, giving some shelter at least from the northeasterlies at the throat end of the station.   As often happened, the level crossing between the old and new stations caused traffic chaos in post war years, though even after the branch closed in 1963 queues as far back as Newton hill were common on Summer Saturdays.

 

The goods yard and shed were to the right of the running lines as you viewed the new station from the old station footbridge looking south, and there were long sidings here as well, storage for the coal trains, that were also used by excursion stock and locomotives.

Edited September 25, 2021 by The Johnster

[Andy Kirkham]

1 hour ago, MidlandRed said:

I’m surprised no one has mentioned the St Ives branch (or it may have been covered to death elsewhere) - this page on the Cornwall Railways web site has some interesting detail, including on rationalisation, dieselisation, through coaches and freight operation. 
 

http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/st-ives-branch.html
 

 

Don't miss the video of this model 

 

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, MidlandRed said:

I’m surprised no one has mentioned the St Ives branch (or it may have been covered to death elsewhere) - this page on the Cornwall Railways web site has some interesting detail, including on rationalisation, dieselisation, through coaches and freight operation. 
 

http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/st-ives-branch.html
 

I didn’t see St Ives until a family holiday in the mid 60s - when there was only one track remaining (I think) but all the other buildings and platforms remained in place - and the normal service shuttle was run by a cast off South Wales class 116 (one of the 50847-9 etc group transferred to Cornwall in 1964). I didn’t see a class 121/122 for the whole holiday - I’m guessing the summer timetable required 3 car units owing to the holiday traffic and the single cars were a winter feature - driving trailer W56289 was parked up in the sidings at St Erth for the duration - presumably as additional accommodation if required. 
 

It’s surprising to read that initial dieselisation occurred using class 22 direct replacement for steam (including double headed - presumably for the through train); and a perception that the class 122s, when they arrived, weren’t terribly reliable (though they did attempt to tow freight wagons with them which may have contributed to woes). 
 

An interesting page and set of photos. 

Use of D63XX (later Class 22) to replace steam) was quite common on certain  Cornish branches - maybe a consequence of  shortage of DMU SPCs (Single Power Cars) but also no doubt because of the branch engine(s) also being used to work freight trains which the DMUs obviously couldn't do.  Technically the St Ives branch included a short section which was too steep for an SPC to take a tail load but it might have been thought that it wouldn't be a problem because it was so short.  But with over a mile at 1 in 60 the branch would have been rather close to the  1 in 50 limit for a DMU tail load and a poor rail head condition would have spelt doom.  The Gloucester SPCs (later Class 121) seem to have performed pretty reliably elsewhere - the only time I heard of one in trouble on our local branch was when it got stuck in a snowdrift in the 1962/63 winter.

 

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Indeed. But @Brassey's example involves through working of one company's carriage to a destination on another company's lines. I imagine that in such a case, the working would be arranged so that the carriage worked back in revenue service as soon as might be.

Indeed so but the opportunity too work back - with certain exceptions - depended on there being a train to work back on.  For Plymouth/Penzance and Torbay/Kingswear the situation was relatively simple because there were daily services to/from Manchester/Liverpool which provided an over night balance for teh stock (or soem of it as soem LMS stock did another trip and sometimes two) in the West of England before finding its return working to the LMS.  But here we aren't really talking about the branches such as Newquay where the working might only run on a Saturday.  For example in the Summer 1929 TT the 10.55 ex Paddingtom arrived Newquay at 17.15 so the stock had to go somewhere, and it worked back as the 18.15 SO Newquay - Par from where it presumably ran either empty or as another advertised train towards where it would be stabled ready for whatever working it did next (which might not be until the following Saturday).

 

The problem - as always in the Summer peak - was that the biggest demand for travel was on Saturdays (plus Friday nights in some cases) and unless trains worked out overnight there was no back working for them until the following weekend.  And this sort of thing continued over many years until the arrival of the Good Doctor enabled those on the railway who cared about it  to bring to his attention the stupidity of keeping hundreds of ageing coaches simply to make a few journeys every Summer often involving as much 'light' mileage as revenue earning miles.   

[Compound2632]

12 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

The problem - as always in the Summer peak - was that the biggest demand for travel was on Saturdays (plus Friday nights in some cases) 

 

Compounded. I suppose, by those on Saturday-to-Saturday holidays returning east and north on the Saturday morning to make way for those coming west in the afternoon, their trains crossing somewhere around Bristol I imagine - so a set of carriages could not do double-duty.

[Nearholmer]

Weren’t there at least some Friday night trains from the midlands and north, which the went back on Saturday afternoon?

 

”Summer Saturdays in the West” was a good read, although I can’t remember a word of it from c40-50years ago! David St John Thomas wrote almost as well as his father, who was a brilliant ‘light’ writer.

 

 

Edited September 25, 2021 by Nearholmer

[The Stationmaster]

6 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Weren’t there at least some Friday night trains from the midlands and north, which the went back on Saturday afternoon?

 

”Summer Saturdays in the West” was a good read, although I can’t remember a word of it from c40-50years ago! David St John Thomas wrote almost as well as his father, who was a brilliant ‘light’ writer.

 

 

Yes - certainly post-war and from Manchester/Liverpool to Torbay/Kingswear

[Kris]

19 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Weren’t there at least some Friday night trains from the midlands and north, which the went back on Saturday afternoon?

 

”Summer Saturdays in the West” was a good read, although I can’t remember a word of it from c40-50years ago! David St John Thomas wrote almost as well as his father, who was a brilliant ‘light’ writer.

 

 

There were overnight (Friday nights only) trains from, Manchester, Liverpool, Sheffield, Newcastle and Glasgow. The Glasgow train got as far as Plymouth but the others all ended up in either Penzance or Newquay. 

[Zomboid]

This seems as good a place as any to ask... Generally modellers seem to couple their autotrailers to the cab end of the loco - I assume this is a model aesthetic preference thing rather than a reflection of the reality of operations? Or did the big railway actually prefer things that way (or indeed to couple to the smokebox end of the loco)?

[Compound2632]

Just now, Zomboid said:

This seems as good a place as any to ask... Generally modellers seem to couple their autotrailers to the cab end of the loco - I assume this is a model aesthetic preference thing rather than a reflection of the reality of operations? Or did the big railway actually prefer things that way (or indeed to couple to the smokebox end of the loco)?

 

Isn't that due to the way the mechanical linkage was designed? (Although that raises the question of how the linkage was arranged for piggy-in-the-middle working?)

[Mike_Walker]

On 27/09/2021 at 14:34, Zomboid said:

This seems as good a place as any to ask... Generally modellers seem to couple their autotrailers to the cab end of the loco - I assume this is a model aesthetic preference thing rather than a reflection of the reality of operations? Or did the big railway actually prefer things that way (or indeed to couple to the smokebox end of the loco)?

It was quite common to see the loco coupled with the smokebox to the autocoach although bunker to coach was the usual way.

 

 

Edited April 11, 2022 by Mike_Walker

[Nearholmer]

I reckon that, all things being equal, a driver would prefer to face the front of the loco when driving from the loco cab, so would prefer the bunker toward the coach.

 

It wasn’t until the Ivatt and BR tanks that many tank engines were really well-designed for dual-direction driving.

[chrisf]

I suspect that much depends on which way round the trailer is.

 

Chris

[Hal Nail]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Isn't that due to the way the mechanical linkage was designed? (Although that raises the question of how the linkage was arranged for piggy-in-the-middle working?)

This is covered at length in numerous threads - the Dapol 7mm 14xx thread for example. The loco is the same at either end so the trailer rear can couple to either end of the loco. A trailer front is the same as a loco and can be coupled to the rear of the next trailer.

[RJS1977]

Somehow I always think locos pushing bunker first looks wrong - it's almost as if a film is being played backwards! A loco pushing chimney first or pulling bunker first looks better to me.

 

In terms of driver's preference, I would have thought the cab rear windows would have afforded a clearer view than the front windows (unless there was a big pile of coal in the way), without the chimney, dome and boiler obstructing the view.

[Zomboid]

Smokebox to the carriage (as pictured above), especially when propelling looks better to my eyes. Reminds me of rack railways, or it might be because I've run models of lots of American hood locos, which definitely look better with the cab end away from the train (especially those with a low short hood).

[Hal Nail]

I've always assumed the reason the majority ran smokebox first was so the controls were in front of the driver.

[The Stationmaster]

4 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

I've always assumed the reason the majority ran smokebox first was so the controls were in front of the driver.

Exactly so.  anyone who tried driving a traditional tank engine bunker will n know that everything is in the wrong place in relation to the human body so chimney first was preferred for train running as it made it easier to work the controls, especially the reverser (which you couldn't work with your back to it).   The other problem running bunker first is coal dust so the pep pipe would find plenty of use to damp both the coal and the footplate area.

 

But as Chris F has already said the deciding factor was the orientation of the driving end of the trailer (and of course the orientation of the engine when attached to the trailer).

[Zomboid]

So how much effort would they go to to get things in the preferred order? Would they normally turn the loco/ coach, or did a given depot just have things normally oriented in the right manner.

[Hal Nail]

3 hours ago, Zomboid said:

or did a given depot just have things normally oriented in the right manner.

 

Realistically how many depots actually had multiple branches to cover and where they did, how often did both require a different orientation? At Tiverton, for example, where you often see two autotrains alongside each other, they both faced the same way so once they'd got everything facing the right way to start with, they could mix combinations up without turning anything.

 

Somewhere like Plymouth where there were quite extensive operations, just have half the coaches facing one way and half the other. The sidings there were loops so the loco could approach stock from either end.

Edited September 28, 2021 by Hal Nail

[sigtech]

Quick question - to Mike Walker (or anyone else who may know)  what is the geographical location and date of the photo of the propelling autotank with single trailer. ( looks like loco is either very dirty, or in unlined black possibly unlined green, and there appears to be a name on the side panel of the trailer which is in faded ,unlined BR red) .

Regards,

SIGTECH

Steve.

[chrisf]

The name on the side of the trailer is WREN.  With its sister THRUSH it used to work the Ealing - Greenford service until replaced by dmus in August 1958.  The date of the photo is therefore after that.

 

Chris

[Mike_Walker]

Abingdon on 4 March 1961.  The coach is indeed W221W 'Wren' and the loco 1450.  Photo by Gerald Robinson.