American 3-rail O, coarse scale

[rockershovel]

So I'm having an excursion into American outline, coarse-scale O. I was going to add it to the Coarse O thread, but thought it might be best on its own, but if Mods want to combine them, I don't mind.

 

It all started when I was charged by proud dad, to build a train set for my grand-daughter. The original plan was to revive his old 1990s Hornby, still in the loft, but that hasn't got very far yet. Around this time, I bought a Lionel Polar Express Berkshire on eBay, mostly because it was a rather imposing thing, went for under a hundred squids and I thought it would look nice on the shelf over my desk. 

 

It sort of grew from there... I bought a couple of job lots of track, and I already had some Lionel rolling stock. Track radii are astonishing, real toy train stuff. 

 

The engineering of the locos is pretty amazing. They are real old school cast body, with big three rail rollers underneath. So far I've got three tender locos, all of which have air operated whistles in the tenders ... I don't yet have a suitable controller to test these. Bogie rolling stock has real steam roller wheels, which make Triang look like Romfords! There are a couple of electric uncouplers, which I haven't got round to yet. 

 

Press on! 

 

 

 

 

[Metropolitan H]

I look forward to seeing more - hopefully with pictures!

 

Regards

Chris H

[seeseerider]

Nice one! Lionel ‘O27’ scale, as it’s known, has so much charm and character. I’m planning an O scale Lionel legacy layout myself right now, i’m sure I won’t be able to resist some of the coarser scale stock too.

[BR60103]

Rockershovel:

Lionel O runs at up to about 16/18 V AC. The whistles, bells and some other sounds are activated by adding some DC to the AC current -- I've seen it explained but I don't understand.  The whistle and bell work by adding the DC in different directions. I believe that there is a bit of voltage boost as well to maintain speed. 

 

My wife's Polar Express is pulling 6 coaches and 4 feight cars which reaches almost halway around the layout (8'x8')

 

The track size is given by diameter. O27 is 13.5" radius -- about OO first radius?  O31 is 15.5".  The Fastrack supplied with sets is 36" diameter.

Except that Lionel measured the traditional track to the outside of the sleepers. Sorry, but I don't have any left to chack.

 

TriAng's BigBig Hymek won't run on the 36" diameter track.

[rockershovel]

Different, isn’t it? 

 

I’ve taken my usual approach of buying a couple of abandoned projects as job lots, plus various individual items. It’s a bit of a sledgehammer approach but gets you moving quickly. 

 

Firstly, I’ve now got a selection of O-27 and O-31 track and some points (switches) and a crossings. I’ve also got an oval of Fast Track plus some additional pieces, which is in as-new condition. Most of the rest is tarnished so I’ve started buffing it with metal polish and washing the rest in white vinegar and distilled water, which doesn’t look pretty but it IS an effective way of restoring electrical contact.

 

Track curve descriptions are best regarded as “the space you need for that circle”. O-27 and O-31 are more-or-less compatible and there is an adapter available for O-31 to Fast Track. I’ve put the Fast Track aside for “train set” use indoors. 

 

The control systems are ... different. I spent a few pounds on a good secondhand transformer/controller which I’ve initially tested using the 110V takeoff from my welding set, so I now know how to start and stop the locos. I need a smaller 240/110v transformer. I don’t understand the electrical system in detail but I know enough for the moment. 

 

I’ve joined a forum which has provided some technical information and literature, plus experience of using these things in the U.K. 

 

next job is to get a door from B&Q and set up a test track using O-27

 

 

 

 

 

[Nearholmer]

Definitely looking forward to this.

 

My good lady bought me what seems to be a perpetual e-subscription to Classic Toy Trains magazine as a birthday present a few years ago, and I never cease to be intrigued by the difference in approach between UK and US coarse-0, and the deep differences between the surrounding cultures.

[rockershovel]

I’ve discovered CTT, it’s quite an entertaining read, isn’t it? All very American, as you say.

 

Here’s some pics. Both look pretty astonishing on O-27 curves! 

 

1) Lionel “Polar Express” 2-8-4 #1225. Known to run.. tender whistle disconnected by PO as it doesn’t have an on-board “off” switch and apparently sounds continuously on 12v DC...

 

 

[RobjUK]

I got a Lionel "Disney" set three or four years ago, as my young nephew wanted a train around the christmas tree after seeing the idea on TV.

 

It was of course immediately converted to DCC + sound & lights etc. and I also picked up a couple of mixed batches including track, wagons and GP7/GP9 locos, one of which is also converted to DCC with lights and sound.

 

The "can motor" ones are very simple to convert, the wound field ones slightly more complex but still fairly easy. 

[rockershovel]

Here’s the other loco, K-Line Boston and Albany 4-6-4. Switches all over the underside! Known to run. 

 

 

Edited October 4, 2019 by rockershovel

[brianusa]

Before you get too far into Lionel trains, it is best to avoid 027 track as you will be limited to the smaller range.  At least make it 031 or larger if possible.  My main lines are O48 (Hornby) and 054.

      Brian.

[rockershovel]

1 hour ago, brianusa said:

Before you get too far into Lionel trains, it is best to avoid 027 track as you will be limited to the smaller range.  At least make it 031 or larger if possible.  My main lines are O48 (Hornby) and 054.

      Brian.

 

Sorting through the various boxes, I’ve got

- a complete oval of O-36 Fast Track plus some additional O-72 curves, half a circle. This is all pretty much “as new” so I’m intending to keep it for “carpet” duty on special occasions. 

- enough O-27 to make up a test track on a door. That’s my next job. There are a couple of smaller locos in the boxes, a 2-4-2 and (I think) a 2-6-2

- a sizeable collection of O-31 with several points (switches) including at least two O-42 units. There is a project at the club I’m a member of, to field a “loose lay” display layout using Hornby Dublo 3-rail, I’m a.ready involved with that so the Lionel might follow the same path for the foreseeable future. 

 

[BR60103]

Lionel O31 track is about the same size as Hornby O gauge (the stuff up to the '50s) except for curve radii. And the pin arrangement at the end.

Because of the DC whistle activation, it will sound continuously if run on DC.  Unless you reverse the wires and then the bell will sound continually. 

 

I am not sure how the modern Lionel transformer would work on stepped-down UK power -- they're designed for 60 hertz power.

 

When I received my Hornby electric set for Christmas, we were at my grandparents' and they had 25 hertz (called cycles then) from the original Niagara Falls generators.  Santa borrowed a transformer from the couple upstairs.

[rockershovel]

I aired the “frequency and voltage” question in a forum I’ve found, and to a couple of Lionel owners I’ve been introduced to. Consensus seems to be that

 

- older locos, and more recent ones sold in lower-priced train sets and not fitted with the DCC-equivalent control system, work fine on 50Hz but transformers will tend to overheat if run continuously for long periods (such as 8hrs/day at exhibitions, or in a dealer’s display). 

 

- The modern TMCC system should NOT be run on 50Hz.

 

- most older, or lower-spec locos run quite happily on 12v DC but whistles etc may require disconnecting.

 

- features like tipping gondolas, uncouplers etc can’t be used on 12v DC

 

... so that seems ok in the context of anything I’ve do far acquired, and I’m unlikely to have the budget or space for more modern/high spec equipment. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[PatB]

My c1956 GM 44 Tonner runs very nicely on the DC supplied by a universal laptop power brick, which is the only power supply I have that's beefy enough to feed such a beast. It's pretty basic and has no AC dependent accessories so I'm happy. 

[rockershovel]

So, here’s the Scout. This came in one of the “job lots” and it appears to date from the 1950s. Tender is tinplate, with no whistle or bell. 

 

It appears to require some TLC, not least that it seems to have lost its reversing lever. I’m unsure what the functional effects of this are, but they can’t be good. 

 

I think I’ll put it aside, and concentrate on the other two locos, which are newer. I’ve also ordered a “rolling road” from gaugemaster, and I’ve looked out a piece of board 3’ x 4’ which will allow me to set up a test track using O-31. 

 

 

Moving on, from responses on the O Gauge RR and posts on CTT, this doesn’t seem like a priority job. The loco isn’t valuable and probably requires a replacement motor. I’ll worry about that later. 

Edited October 4, 2019 by rockershovel

[PatB]

Loss of the reversing lever itself shouldn't be too much of a problem. All it does is switch the electromechanical reverser (the E-unit) into or out of circuit. Useful for things like Xmas tree circuits or shop window displays where inadvertent reversing due to power supply or pickup hiccups could be awkward.

 

OTOH its absence could indicate a complete lack of an E-unit altogether. It's possible the loco may never have had one. The Scout was the economy version, after all, and may have come in a non-reversing guise. Or the E-unit could have been removed. They command reasonable prices on Ebay, so there's motive. 

 

Lack of an E-unit isn't fatal. The loco could be wired to run forward only on AC, or, if running on DC, the insertion of a quid's worth of bridge rectifier into either the field or the armature circuit will provide normal reversing. 

 

I'd regard it as unlikely that the motor would be shot enough to require complete replacement. 

[rockershovel]

From responses on OGRR and CTT, the loco would have had a reverser in one of two places - probably through the slot in the boiler, behind the sand dome.

 

I’ll separate the body and have a look at some point, I’m sure there are one or more solutions, but I don’t think it is a sufficient priority at present. 

Edited October 4, 2019 by rockershovel

[rockershovel]

So, I sorted out some more track, set up a circle, spent a few minutes with the Brasso lint and yowza! The little Scout growls round with a rather satisfying smell of ozone.. the trick is NOT to touch the “direction” button, just slowly increase the current and off she goes! Slow speed running is quite good. The tender is a later, “whistle” tender which came with the rest. I’m waiting for a new controller lever from the US..

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/l3dftoy2qkepk0l/Video 04-10-2019%2C 14 03 51.mov?dl=0

 

I’ve got quite a selection of this O-27 track, mostly in good order. More experimentation called for, I think.

 

 

Edited October 4, 2019 by rockershovel

[rockershovel]

Next experiment - the 2-8-4 doesn’t like O-27 curves, which isn’t surprising but I thought I’d attempt it while the test circle was set up. The lights work. Next job is to reconnect the detached wires on the tender (whistle power supply from the collection rollers). This isn’t a big job but I’ll need to look out some suitable screws, 

[BR60103]

I think the reverse unit (E-unit) lever should come up through the slot in the boiler.  The lever on my 2055 hudson came loose and it no longer functions -- needs rerivetting.

The E-unit is a solenoid operating, I think, a drum DPDT switch to control the field magnet.  Every time you turn the power on it picks up a weight; when the power goes off the weight drops onto the drum and moves it one position on. The lever could disconnect the solenoid so that it didn't pick up the weight and the switch stayed in the same position. This would be used if you had sections of the track that could be switched off for separating trains or such.  Lionel suggested a small resistor to keep the E-unit engaged; the resistor got very hot.

 

Side note: Lionel steamers had 3 digit numbers for O gauge (O31) and 4 digits for O27.  Often the same loco would be available with both 3 and 4 digit numbers.

 

[rockershovel]

It’s something like that, apparently. From a conversation on OGRR, it seems that this loco is a common conversion of the by-then-discontinued Scout Model, using the later 2034-100 mechanism. Hence the empty slot for the E lever, which is now under the body shell. 

 

I also hadn't realised that the bogie wheels acted as current collectors. They are pretty filthy!

 

I’ve also now worked out how to strip the brushes and clean the commutator, which can’t do any harm...

 

 

 

[rockershovel]

The Scout now runs quite well. The “whistle” tender needs some tlc, but does work. 

 

The K-Line 4-6-4 runs very smoothly and will negotiate O27, although it’s clearly something which shouldn’t be made a habit of. The bell and whistle functions in the tender work well. Right now I can only get one, or the other but I’ve traced and ordered the necessary switch which will solve that problem.

 

The lighted caboose works well! 

Edited October 6, 2019 by rockershovel

[rockershovel]

No joy with the tender on the Berkshire. I suspect that the PO damaged the circuit board, attempting to test the loco using 12v DC and disconnecting the whistle (which he said, operated all the time). 

 

I’m not TOO heart-broken. The loco runs well and I’ll fix the tender in good time. 

 

 

[rockershovel]

So, I’ve spent some time cleaning and oiling the spare “whistle” tender, which came with the Scout 2-4-2. (The plot thickens regarding the Scout, by the by. More on this later). It now emits a whistle, rather than the previous “coffee grinder” noise, so I’ve mustered it with the Berkshire pending further investigation of THAT tender. 

 

I’ve ordered some Slaters phosphor bronze strip to have a further “go” at the Berkshire’s tender. Apart from anything else, it has an electromagnetic uncoupler (known as a “thumbtack” for reasons which are self-explanatory)

 

[rockershovel]

Rolling stock... rummaging through my accumulated boxes, I find the following

 

1) several Sunoco tank cars, two of them fitted with the coil-type uncouplers and all in need of varying degrees of  tlc .. the K Line “3-holer” is good to go.. the yellow caboose is rather splendid!

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 8, 2019 by rockershovel