American 3-rail O, coarse scale

[rockershovel]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

If the scout has a wound-field motor, which I suspect it has, there isn’t much to go wrong, so any high consumption is likely to be caused by dirt in the mech, which if cleaned off should lower consumption.

 

I suppose it could have short-circuited turns in the coils, due to insulation breakdown, but I doubt it.

 

its old (im)permanent magnets that tend to be trouble-makers.

 

 

 

I’ve cleaned the commutator and brushes, blown out the motor and chassis, oiled the bearings and cleaned the wheels .. I’ll take it along to the club, there’s someone there with a tool for remagnetising the magnets. 

[Nearholmer]

It has “permanent” magnets??

 

Are you sure?

[rockershovel]

No, I’m not, but I’ve asked the question. I’m off to Japan tomorrow for the RWC with No 2 Son, so it’s not urgent. I’ve  been cleaning and fettling the connections on the test track, too. 

[F-UnitMad]

On 08/10/2019 at 18:15, rockershovel said:

Hopper cars, showing the rather elastic American notions of “scale”..

 

 

... which is why Over There, 3-Rail O is usually referred to as "O Gauge", whereas 2-rail is called "O Scale".

 

Been watching this thread from the start. Although 3-Rail is not my 'thing'at all, and I hate the way it has held back the growth of the 2-rail US O  market, there's no denying that it can be lots of fun to watch, at an exhibition. As unrealistic as it is, both old US & UK 3-rail O certainly has plenty of 'atmosphere' - often far more than some 'proper' layouts that can, for all their scale accuracy, sometimes be a bit soul-less.

[rockershovel]

I wouldn’t be at all sure it has held back the growth of anything. There is no home-grown 3-rail, coarse scale O Gauge here in UK, but I don’t see O Scale (to follow your terminology) sweeping the board. 

[rockershovel]

Not 3-rail, but I felt this deserved a mention.. definitely coarse scale O gauge! 

 

https://rebrickable.com/mocs/MOC-19554/morningstrummer/union-pacific-4014-big-boy/#comments

[brianusa]

The main reason O tinplate still rules in the US is that Lionel never really died unlike Hornby which went through the throes and eventually died in the early sixties, a shadow of its former self.  With the demise of the Lionel Corp, the product was soon replaced by several successors who continued production with minor variations but who continued to innovate and improve upon the basic concept while being inclusive of the old designs which were still compatible.   So its is possible to use old Lionel models with the very latest which could be considered SOTA, along with the current products of competitors.  With the advent of more modern track, the differences between scale and tinplate diminish even further!

    Brian.

[rockershovel]

Clearing the garden for the winter, I’ve latched on to a plastic garden table about 33” x 54”. This doesn’t sound much but it allows me to set up an oval of O31 track with a switch and a siding, so I can start a sort-out of the various track I have, get to grips with how to wire it up and so forth. 

 

I toyed with setting up an O27 oval but I wouldn’t achieve anything by it - the space doesn’t allow anything I can’t do in O31, so why make life difficult? 

 

[Nearholmer]

I still struggle, even as a coarse-scaler, with the idea that the figures you cite are diameters, rather than radii.

 

Anyway, enjoy the picnic!

[rockershovel]

Well, that’s what they are called in the catalogues and service sheets, so why make life difficult? 

 

I’ve sorted out a consist of “large”, O size cars - boxcar, gondola, hopper, caboose. I’ve cleaned and oiled the wheels and axle bearings where necessary. 

 

The Scout 2-4-2 remains inconsistent so I’ve put it aside until I have made more progress generally.

 

The latest addition, the “starter set” USRA 0-8-0 runs nicely although it is surprisingly light-footed for such a brute. I suppose it’s the plastic chassis and underbody moulding. It pulls the full consist well enough but it’s happier with 2 cars plus caboose; this particularly shows when operating the whistle, which is something of a power-hog.

 

The big 2-8-4 handles the O31 curves well although railing it is fiddly, with its outside frame bogie, outside frame pony truck and tender drawbar. The tender has two pickups as well as the loco, these are awkward to rail and rotation of the front bogie seems to be a constraint; I’ve been using an older whistle tender with this loco which eases getting it in position, and the whistle is good on that now. 

 

Next job is to sort out a consist of O27 stock, probably hopper, gondola and tank car. I don’t presently have a smaller caboose... but I’m still a bit faded from Japan so that’s enough for tonight. 

 

 

[rockershovel]

More tinkering about. 

 

The tank cars now run (more) freely although there’s still room for improvement, as the newer K Line one demonstrates. One of the Sunoco ones has gone in the “repairs” box for attention to one of its bogies. These are classed as O27, according to their catalogue numbers. 

 

The 0-8-0 will now haul 6 cars, although it looks rather frantic doing so. I think 3 or 4 is quite enough on these small curves. It also seems rather rough riding and demonstrates a sensitivity to bad track joints, I’ve been sorting through the box of track to make up a “good set” with the best joints I can match together. The tender whistle requires a light touch on the lever, to avoid surging or slowing down.. you have to drive these things, it seems! 

 

The B&O 4-6-4 has also been having a gallop (I didn’t care to take it to NAROGG as it has various electronics, which I didn’t choose to try on 12v DC). It is much the smoothest, best riding and most powerful of the three, romping away with 8 cars... it has a “sounds” function which I have switched off at present, I think it’s a “chuffing” effect. It also smokes like a good ‘un, although I’ve turned THAT off for the present as well. The electronic whistle is also rather dramatic. 

 

Press on! 

 

 

[BR60103]

Is your tank car 6465?  That's what came with my O27 set in 1953. (number stamped on bottom).  Interesting that it's one number higher than the famous 6464 boxcar series.

 

Most of the freight cars would take all the curves as the trucks swing all the way around. 

 

I took out my loco last week. There area few bits that seem to be missing on the interior and one of the drivers is loose on its axle.

 

 

[rockershovel]

There are two bearing #2465 in Sunoco livery and carrying coil couplers, one #6465 in Sunoco with magnetic coupler, one in the same silver colour bearing no number or livery (although I think it was originally badged Sunoco) with magnetic couplers. 

 

The trucks do swing through 360deg. I mention O27 because the various information sites describe them as having been supplied with O and O27 sets, whereas the 6464 boxcars seem to have been a larger, more “scale” size and sold with O sets - that’s as I understand it, anyway

Edited October 28, 2019 by rockershovel

[rockershovel]

I’ve tried a test loop of O27. Interesting stuff, and the 0-8-0 seems to handle it without derailing - but I don’t think I’ll persevere with it, at least for the moment. 

 

[Nearholmer]

Have you worked out how old the various things you’ve acquired are? 
 

Prompted by your essay, I re-read bits of the book about the history of Lionel that I’ve got, but it isn’t like a UK model train history book (full of dates that particular models were introduced etc), it’s more of a social and business history, plus hagiography.

 

Which then leads onto: were Lionel post-war steam locos cast Mazak, or plastic? Or, put another way, when did They start using plastics ‘big time’?

[rockershovel]

Yes, American attitudes are different, aren’t they? 

 

Age? Broadly speaking, post-war (1945-1969) and modern. The Scout 2-4-2 is from about 1952, although it’s a bit mixed. Incidentally the original chassis would have been plastic.

 

The tank cars date from the 1945-52 period.

 

The 2-8-4 is modern, although in the Lionel sense of “latest revamp of a model dating from about 1938” - its design is pure 1950s, with cast body and chassis and can motor. The 4-6-4 is emphatically modern, with electronic control etc (which incidentally runs very well) but still cast body and chassis. The 0-8-0 is another modern dinosaur, although with cast upper body and plastic chassis block. 

 

I have a variety of hoppers and gondolas from the postwar era, mostly of “semiscale” size, plus a couple of more modern units (such as a boxcar and tank car fitted with thumbtack couplers) 

[brianusa]

3 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Have you worked out how old the various things you’ve acquired are? 
 

Prompted by your essay, I re-read bits of the book about the history of Lionel that I’ve got, but it isn’t like a UK model train history book (full of dates that particular models were introduced etc), it’s more of a social and business history, plus hagiography.

 

Which then leads onto: were Lionel post-war steam locos cast Mazak, or plastic? Or, put another way, when did They start using plastics ‘big time’?

 

AFAIK, there was only one big time plastic loco a DCV 2-6-2 derived from the metal 675.  This was done to cheapen it for inclusion in the basic line up and although it worked, it was not the success of the original which had smoke and a whistle tender.  The Scouts were a mixture, metal, and plastic which was mostly on the later issues which apart from different numbers were essentially the same.  Further economies were made by dropping the bogie wheels and eventually ending up as 0-4-0s and non reversing.  There was an even cheaper plastic line with a different loco mould which to all intents and purposes signaled the end of the original Lionel Corp.  Believe it or not, some of these with the right number, used to be hard to find especially with the rarer tenders.

      Brian.

[rockershovel]

So, more sorting. Various trends are emerging...

 

The O27 track is packed away again. I’ll probably put it on eBay, sooner or later. I’ve now got a usable quantity of usable quality O31 track sorted out, including a couple of switches and a crossing. More on that later. 

 

The various locos have their own individual quirks.

- I’ll probably disconnect the whistle on the 2-8-4 and leave it that way, for running on 12v DC at “running days” (NAROGG was a lot of fun, I’m up for THAT again). I have an old “whistle tender” I can use for running on 20v AC when I want to.

- The Scout remains cranky, although it runs like a champ WHEN it runs; it’s been suggested that I remove the reversing unit, which might be the source of the problem. Or, I might source a refurbished mechanism while I’m in Florida in Jan, they aren’t hard to find and it would save the shipping. 

- the 0-8-0 is good fun, although the whistle is rather feeble. This seems to be a common problem with newer locos fitted with air whistles. 

- the 4-6-4 won’t be appearing at running days unless I can attract more Lionel support. Its modern electronics can’t accommodate 12v DC. A shame, but there it is... there IS a Lionel club day, though...

 

rolling stock.... 

- I now have a consist of four more-or-less matching early-50s Sunoco tank cars. I’ve ordered an older type caboose (£20 on eBay) so that’s my “vintage” train for the Scout. 

- I have two “semi-scale” (ie, somewhat undersized, more like S than O Scale) Lehigh Valley hoppers, fairly modern, plastic construction. Add a modern K Line tank car and a boxcar, and the lighted caboose and that will look rather good with the 0-8-0 or 2-8-4 at running days. The 0-8-0’s very good slow running suggests it for the coal tipper car, too.

- I saw another of those extruded coaches on eBay, with a Vista Dome and couldn’t resist it. So, that’s a “running days” train for the 4-6-4 or 2-8-4 as circumstances permit. 

- I have a quite enormous coal hopper, bigger than anything else. Very nice condition but mismatched to anything else. eBay beckons, I think. 

- various other odds and ends, a vintage-style gondola suggests a possible alternative for the Scout? 

 

Press on! 

 

 

 

 

[rockershovel]

So, I cleaned the reversing drum on the Scout. The best diagnosis I can teach is that the reverser is not properly functional, but WILL reset itself unreliably. Moving the reversing lever across, seems to have no effect.

 

This is is a breakthrough of sorts, because it means that if it won’t go, I can reset the drum manually and it will then run forwards. This is useful because it actually runs rather well otherwise. 

 

While I was about it, I drilled out the rivet and swapped in the second bogie from the crippled gondola which donated the bogie to fix the tank car, earlier in the day. This means that the tender now has a postwar type coupler, which matches the other stock, rather than the oddball “Scout” unit.

 

[BR60103]

13 hours ago, rockershovel said:

 

- The Scout remains cranky, although it runs like a champ WHEN it runs; it’s been suggested that I remove the reversing unit, which might be the source of the problem. Or, I might source a refurbished mechanism while I’m in Florida in Jan, they aren’t hard to find and it would save the shipping. 

 

There is a very nice show in Deland, Fla in January.  https://10times.com/rail-fair-florida

 

 

[BR60103]

Is there a contact problem which causes the reversing unit to cycle?  Fellow down the street was having problems and we diagnosed that the pickup roller had, over 65 years, worn a concave surface. He replaced it and the loco now runs like a dream again.

 

[rockershovel]

On 30/10/2019 at 02:36, BR60103 said:

Is there a contact problem which causes the reversing unit to cycle?  Fellow down the street was having problems and we diagnosed that the pickup roller had, over 65 years, worn a concave surface. He replaced it and the loco now runs like a dream again.

 

 

No, I think it’s that there is a loose, or faulty connection in the reversing unit. I’ve now switched it off, and cycled the drum manually to FORWARD so it now runs quite nicely in one direction. 

 

[rockershovel]

So I was in Travis Perkins, saw a 78” x 36” hollow cored door in the offcuts rack and bought it for £15. It’s a bit marked but that doesn’t concern me.

 

I’d been giving thought to fitting up a larger test track. Well, in 78” x 36” I can do THIS, using O31 track - 

 

 

I need to look at the general layout of the garage now! 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 1, 2019 by rockershovel

[Nearholmer]

You’ll need to think about crash barriers on the corners, I suspect.

[Nearholmer]

You’ll need to think about crash barriers on the corners, I suspect.