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American 3-rail O, coarse scale


rockershovel
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1 hour ago, rockershovel said:

So I was in Travis Perkins, saw a 78” x 36” hollow cored door in the offcuts rack and bought it for £15. It’s a bit marked but that doesn’t concern me.

 

I’d been giving thought to fitting up a larger test track. Well, in 78” x 36” I can do THIS, using O31 track - 

 

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I need to look at the general layout of the garage now! 

 

 

 

 

 

That's basically the same as my first 027 layout except that I had an X in the middle.  Doing this, there was room for a couple of short sidings also.  There was even a Hornby Viaduct on the back straight; a fun layout:smile_mini2:

     Brian

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55 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

You’ll need to think about crash barriers on the corners, I suspect.

 

I need to do a lot of things! That’s just a first fit-up, to check the track joints and how it runs. 

 

I’ve just been in the garage, cutting in a short section to ease the joints - some sort of accumulated misalignment, I suppose. I’ve got another switch I can use to fit a siding, and a UCS track to tip the coal car.. I can also cut in a couple of 1/4 straights to extend the loop slightly but I don’t know if I will.

 

The Scout is a useful tool for track checking, its very light, unsprung pony truck highlights any rough spots or bad joints! 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, brianusa said:

 

That's basically the same as my first 027 layout except that I had an X in the middle.  Doing this, there was room for a couple of short sidings also.  There was even a Hornby Viaduct on the back straight; a fun layout:smile_mini2:

     Brian

 

There’s only so much you can do in the space, isn’t there? I did have a possible O27 layout which would have allowed a passing loop as well, but I particularly wanted to run the Hudson so I went for 031. The Hudson will cope with O27, I understand that Lionel had a 4-6-4  which was sold for O27 use, but it definitely doesn’t prefer it. 

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I've seen video online of an entertaining automatic arrangement for Brian's X-crossing oval layout. It used the anti-derailing feature of Marx electric turnouts rather than Lionel ones, but I gather that both work similarly. 

 

A better explanation will probably emerge if you go trawling for US 3-rail material on the net, but the basic principle is this. The anti-derailing turnouts automatically switch themselves to the correct direction for a train approaching in a trailing direction. The trick is to wire both turnouts at each end of the oval together so that as each is switched by the approaching train it also switches the other at the same end to the opposite route. For example, a train approaches turnout 1 along the straight side of the oval. Turnout 1 automatically switches to its straight through position, simultaneously switching Turnout 2, at the same end of the oval, to its diverging route off towards the X-crossing and the diverging route of Turnout 3 at the other end of the oval. Turnout 3 will automatically set to its diverging route as the train reaches it, setting its opposite number, Turnout 4, to its straight route, back towards Turnout 2, which sets straight, and sets Turnout 1 diverging. And so on. The train circulates indefinitely, automatically taking every route available in a seemingly random (I'm pretty sure there is a repeating pattern there, but it takes a while) sequence. Not exactly prototypical, but these are, when all is said and done, toys. 

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4 hours ago, PatB said:

I've seen video online of an entertaining automatic arrangement for Brian's X-crossing oval layout. It used the anti-derailing feature of Marx electric turnouts rather than Lionel ones, but I gather that both work similarly. 

 

A better explanation will probably emerge if you go trawling for US 3-rail material on the net, but the basic principle is this. The anti-derailing turnouts automatically switch themselves to the correct direction for a train approaching in a trailing direction. The trick is to wire both turnouts at each end of the oval together so that as each is switched by the approaching train it also switches the other at the same end to the opposite route. For example, a train approaches turnout 1 along the straight side of the oval. Turnout 1 automatically switches to its straight through position, simultaneously switching Turnout 2, at the same end of the oval, to its diverging route off towards the X-crossing and the diverging route of Turnout 3 at the other end of the oval. Turnout 3 will automatically set to its diverging route as the train reaches it, setting its opposite number, Turnout 4, to its straight route, back towards Turnout 2, which sets straight, and sets Turnout 1 diverging. And so on. The train circulates indefinitely, automatically taking every route available in a seemingly random (I'm pretty sure there is a repeating pattern there, but it takes a while) sequence. Not exactly prototypical, but these are, when all is said and done, toys. 

 

Lionel had a whole range of semi-automatic layouts of that sort, mostly designed for dealer display. I looked for the one you describe on line (I remember my cousins in Colorado having a layout of that sort, although the details escape me at the moment). I did find #D63, which is a variant of the “double reverse loop” layout in which two trains automatically control each other, on YouTube.

 

#D27 is a neat trick, it’s the “disappearing train” one. It’s apparently a simple oval. A train enters a tunnel about the length of the loco; it then disappears entirely, and emerges again. The trick is that the tunnel is the portal to a sharp (8%) downgrade/upgrade  loop, located in a well under the baseboard. The train circulates the loop, rising to track level again and emerging from the other portal, just as the last car disappears from view. Like most such illusions, it comes down to stage management, it’s basically a demonstration of the Magnatraction feature.

 

 

On one level, they are a demonstration of Nearholmer’s earlier point about American attitudes being very different to ours. I can’t imagine Hornby Dublo doing that sort of thing, and the Lionel trains of the era combined Tri-Ang levels of realism (solid wheels, flapping pony trucks and bogies, under-scale lengths) with BIG, STRONG construction. 

 

On another level, they embody and celebrate the Yankee talent for mechanical ingenuity. They really are quite highly developed, in their way, but quite soon they would be swept away by the transition to electronics, which America never really got to grips with. Bill Bryson makes a similar comment, in the context of consumer electronics in the video and music field, especially the Walkman and its successors. 

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I’ve just been experimenting with available space, now I have the door. The conclusion is that the K Line Hudson actually runs quite well on O27 track, provided it is well laid. This is a good outcome, because 

- I have quite a lot of good condition O27 track, including three good switches (points)

- I have a UCS (uncoupler/accessory operating track) which is also in good condition

- I prefer the appearance of the smaller rail section

- the smaller rail section seems to make much less general rattling and clanking, and the sparking over the points is much reduced

- it allows for a passing loop within the available space

 

I’ll try the 2-8-4, but I’m reasonably optimistic it will handle it. If so I will look for some more O27 track and at least one more switch. 

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Couplings and wheel bearings, this morning. The older, PW style cars need some TLC & WD40. Running the couplings over the uncoupling track, one at a time. So far, so good. 

 

Also, gave the K Line Hudson a canter with the sound on - very dramatic, if definitely “mechanical”. I must buy some smoke oil, and sort out a bell activator so I can sound bell and whistle..

 

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I never had O27 remote contrl switches, but my manual ones had the dead block feature.

The O gauge ones had a pin for a constant voltage supply. This meant that you could change them even with the power turned off or very low.

 

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I’d quite forgotten that Hornby Dublo 3-Rail had open current flow as standard, with “isolating points”  (“dead block”) as a feature on a separate version of the same points (switches).

 

Tri-Ang and 2-rail Hornby Dublo switches were all “isolating” with dead frogs as a protection against short circuits, if you were a serious modeller with fixed wiring you might go for “live frog”, non-isolating points instead 

 

Interesting comment about the fixed voltage supply to the point motors. Tri-Ang and Hornby never used track current for accessories AFAIK. There was a common transformer/controller that every train set owner used or aspired to, that had outputs providing controlled 12v DC, uncontrolled 12v DC (to a separate controller) and 16v A.C. for accessories. 

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The modern 0-8-0, light-footed little beast that it is, could scarcely move these! The little Scout 2-4-2 needs a light touch on the lever but will move them steadily, once it's got them going. They re HEAVY, and have pick-up rollers on all bogies and coil couplers. They have been in someone's cabinet for many years, I think. I've applied WD40 and contact cleaner so time will tell. They need running. 

 

The couplers all work and the lighting.. it's interesting to note on the video that one of the bulbs isn't lit, this isn't evident from watching them circulate. 

 

The Hudson simply walked away with them, and walks around steadily at a slow pace. It looks rather good, too..

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/p6esqcqxscqw3o8/IMG_2619.MOV?dl=0

 

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The passenger cars were plastic. They were offered through the '50s -- they are in the 1960 catalog (only one I have left).

They were the smaller cars, usually O27, and often matched with the smaller Alco FA diesel. The 1960 illustration makes them look a little lot less lumpy along the sides. The colour changed almost yearly to match the diesels. Occasionally they were matched with a steamer.

(This is all from memory.)

 

In a few days we can have a discussion on couplers and control sections. 

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7 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

You'll get bored with me asking, but, once again: date of coaches; and, are they metal or plastic?

 

Keep this up BTW, I'm really enjoying the vicarious Lionel.

 

This particular set date from 1948-9, but as has already been remarked, they were produced in numerous variations throughout the “Post War” period (1945-69). They were offered in various O27 sets, including various diesels, the Pennsylvania Turbine loco, the various semi-scale Hudson’s and the #2505 2-6-2 which is probably the most common PW steam outline loco. 

 

They are at least twice the weight of the, much longer, modern extruded-section coaches I showed earlier! 

 

One thing which surprised me, is the general proportions. They are much the same cross section as more modern stock (compare the video, which shows a comparison to the Scout and a modern Hudson, reckoned to be of “scale” dimensions). 

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8 hours ago, brianusa said:

A pity Lionel never made the baggage car for these sets.  There is one post war for AMTRAK so it will need a repaint to match.

        Brian.

 

Seeing them run, and having had a little while to experiment, I’ve come to the conclusion that three cars is “just about right” for O27, in terms of negotiating curves and rolling resistance, and the general size of the stock and  layout. 

 

The larger, longer modern coaches look better in a longer rake - I’ve now bought a Vista Dome car for my “modern” set and if I see a sleeper at the right price, I’ll buy it for running days - but these O27 cars are a different matter. 

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53 minutes ago, mervyn said:

Great topic really enjoying your posts, I have recently bought a Coca Cola wagon and some open gondolas , will see about a loco  via e bay and run it alongside my Ace and Darstaed best of both sides of the pond !

 

Be careful about locos. In a nutshell, more modern locos with electronic controls don’t take well to running on 12v DC, in some cases shouldn’t be tried at all, while the older ones run quite happily. 

 

Anything Post War is fine, although the reverser won’t work on 12v DC. More modern locos with can motors, originally intended for train sets are usually ok, although the tenders need disconnecting (because the whistles sound continually on DC). My modern Polar Express 2-8-4 ran quite happily on 12v DC at a recent running day, and I’ve now disconnected the tender power in self-defence... as a general comment, avoid anything with a wire tether between loco and tender, or any sort of Bluetooth. 

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