American 3-rail O, coarse scale

[rockershovel]

I’ve just been reminded of the Lionel operating mail car. This seems to be one area where Lionel’s usual ingenuity hasn’t really served them particularly well. 

 

 

The mailman seems to be operated by the same track magnet which operates a number of other features, and operating this from traction current means that the train needs to be going quite fast, which makes the timing of it difficult to achieve. There is also the risk of uncoupling the train, or triggering any other nearby accessory. 

 

It also doesn’t have the pick-up feature which the Hornby and Tri-Ang versions offered. 

 

The original version, intended for tubular track had the option that the track magnet could be operated by a separate current supply, so the train speed could be quite slow, which probably works better. 

 

These are still in the Lionel range. They are quite common, and cheap on eBay. I don’t have any plans to hunt one out for the moment, but you never know..

 

 

[rockershovel]

Having a few shillings to spare, I indulged in another round of offers for items I’d been watching on eBay, but didn’t make the asking price...

 

Lionel #6460 crane, early 1950s variation of the Post War type. The main variation is the four wheel trucks, rather than the “six wheel” type, and the discontinuation of the coil-type couplers and “hot shoe” actuators. Nice intact piece, everything works; not “collector” standard due to light play wear and the common damage to the crane cab securing blocks, but nothing serious.

 

 

Lionel well wagon, a later (probably MPC era) all-plastic unit, originally sold with a helicopter as a load (hence the USN lettering). Makes a nice companion to the crane, I think. 

 

 

 

[rockershovel]

K Line actuator Track, O27 specification (ie lightweight rail). Much like the Lionel unit (O27 Track never had the extra slide rails for actuating couplers by hot-shoe) but simpler controls, using a simple push button. Lionel continued the two-button control (for the hot-shoe rails) long after the hot-shoe system had been dropped. O27 tracks don’t have the option to run from a separate power source, but it’s not difficult to fit it (although that’s best left to fixed layouts on baseboards, I think)

 

[BR60103]

There was another O27 control track that had 2 control rails in addition to the magnet. This would operate certain cars (Cattle car and dumpers?). Not sure about coil couplers as I never had any.

 

[rockershovel]

11 hours ago, BR60103 said:

There was another O27 control track that had 2 control rails in addition to the magnet. This would operate certain cars (Cattle car and dumpers?). Not sure about coil couplers as I never had any.

 

 

You are right, I had overlooked that and possibly, incorrectly identified some of the tubular track in my collection. Later tubular track from other manufacturers don’t feature the slide rails. 

 

The coil couplers were a Post War feature which incorporate a solenoid to release the couplers, with slide shoes under the trucks. The two buttons operate the slide rails, or the central magnet, so the couplers and operating cars can be operated independently. Later PW cars have a different design of coupler, and no hot shoe. AIUI the coil couplers work off the hot shoe, the later ones don’t. 

 

All the operating cars I have seen (I have later side tippers and a bottom dump hopper) work off the central magnet, as do the later “thumb tack” couplers 

Edited December 18, 2020 by rockershovel

[rockershovel]

5 hours ago, BR60103 said:

There was another O27 control track that had 2 control rails in addition to the magnet. This would operate certain cars (Cattle car and dumpers?). Not sure about coil couplers as I never had any.

 

 

Coil couplers have returned in conjunction with modern electronics. They are a sound design, if you have enough command channels to operate them, which isn’t a problem with modern wireless control systems. 

[Florence Locomotive Works]

On 09/10/2020 at 12:46, rockershovel said:

 

... I STILL don’t have any diesels? 

 

Diesels just don’t appeal, I’m afraid. I had a protracted and thoroughly unsatisfactory experience of commuting in the last days of diesel-hauled carriage stock trains on ECML, and that was that. If railway enthusiasm is rooted in nostalgia, then standing on a crowded platform waiting for a delayed train to work, being stranded on an unlit, Un-heated train in the Hitchin area or standing interminably in the Arctic bedlam of Kings Cross, just don’t qualify. 

 

That said, a Lionel “war-bonnet” F3 somehow symbolises the glamour of US rail travel (although I never actually saw one..) and if I ever buy a US outline diesel, it would be one of those. 

GPs slowly grow on you as do F-Units...

 

 

[rockershovel]

27 minutes ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

GPs slowly grow on you as do F-Units...

 

 

 

The “War Bonnet” Santa Fe F3 is an icon from my childhood. I’ve never seen one in the metal, but they are almost as cool as a Batman suit, or Steve McQueen on a Triumph Bonneville. I did see a GG1 and they definitely have ... presence. 

 

Geeps? Nope. 

Edited December 18, 2020 by rockershovel

[J. S. Bach]

On 14/11/2020 at 09:11, rockershovel said:

Just seen this on OGR Forum, thought it was worth posting the link. Lovely work, fascinating vintage brass locos https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/topic/lobaugh-early-middle-and-late-and-really-late?reply=152054912839662558#152054912839662558

I just found this thread today so a few late replies. This doorstop weighs in at 13+ pounds and has eight-wheel drive:

 

That rod across the fuel tank is the reverser for the wound-field motor. Note that most were built with a vertically mounted motor in the cab driving just the two axles under the cab.

 

 

Edited December 18, 2020 by J. S. Bach
To update some information and correct a spellin error..

[J. S. Bach]

On 09/10/2020 at 11:36, rockershovel said:

Here’s a selection of MPC and modern era, Lionel cars - all in Chessie System livery. This was a 70s/80s era holding company including Chesapeake and Ohio, Western Maryland and Baltimore and Ohio, plus various minor RR. It was a “diesel era” entity, and I don’t have any diesels... well, shucks. So it goes. 

 

 ...snip...

So get a Lionel scale Reading T-1 (4-8-4) painted in the Chessie Steam Special paint scheme :

 

https://www.american-rails.com/chss.html

 

Note that I have one in Reading (2102 or 2100, it is buried behind a bunch of stuff and I do not remember); it is so good that I almost had it two-railed! I may still at some time.

 

 

 

[J. S. Bach]

On 14/11/2020 at 09:11, rockershovel said:

Just seen this on OGR Forum, thought it was worth posting the link. Lovely work, fascinating vintage brass locos https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/topic/lobaugh-early-middle-and-late-and-really-late?reply=152054912839662558#152054912839662558

Ah yes, Bob2 and his fascination with "doorstops". Carey Williams has a wealth of information on the older manufacturers, always a great read.

Edited December 18, 2020 by J. S. Bach
To correct a spelling error.

[J. S. Bach]

1 hour ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

GPs slowly grow on you as do F-Units...

So does a fungus! SD45s and SD40T-2s on the other hand!

Edited December 18, 2020 by J. S. Bach

[J. S. Bach]

10 hours ago, rockershovel said:

 ...snip... The coil couplers were a Post War feature which incorporate a solenoid to release the couplers, with slide shoes under the trucks. The two buttons operate the slide rails, or the central magnet, so the couplers and operating cars can be operated independently. Later PW cars have a different design of coupler, and no hot shoe. AIUI the coil couplers work off the hot shoe, the later ones don’t. 

 

All the operating cars I have seen (I have later side tippers and a bottom dump hopper) work off the central magnet, as do the later “thumb tack” couplers 

 

The coil couplers may have been a late pre-war item but with the "box coupler"; that thing looked like a large box with a hook sticking out of it. Scroll down to "box coupler" to see one:

 

https://dfarq.homeip.net/are-all-lionel-prewar-couplers-compatible/

 

Those ugly things actually worked quite well.

 

[rockershovel]

1 hour ago, J. S. Bach said:

I just found this thread today so a few late replies. This doorstop weighs in at 13+ pounds and has eight-wheel drive:

 

That rod across the fuel tank is the reverser for the wound-field motor. Note that most were built with a vertically mounted motor in the cab driving just the two axles under the cab.

 

 

 

That is serious model engineering.. 

[rockershovel]

50 minutes ago, J. S. Bach said:

The coil couplers may have been a late pre-war item but with the "box coupler"; that thing looked like a large box with a hook sticking out of it. Scroll down to "box coupler" to see one:

 

https://dfarq.homeip.net/are-all-lionel-prewar-couplers-compatible/

 

Those ugly things actually worked quite well.

 

 

My first “job lot” of PW Lionel stock included coil and latch couplers. Project Roar is worth a read http://projectroar.com/content/sample_pages/Authoritative Guide to Lionel's Postwar Operating Cars Sample Pages.pdf  but this is their account of couplers;

 

[BR60103]

I think the O version of the operating track (UCS) had 4 extra rails. (I just checked the 1960 catalog)  I have an idea that the uncouple button operated 2 of them plus the magnet; the unload button operated the other pair. I also have an idea that the coil couplers continued on the large passenger cars and some of the larger locos like the F7.

 

Extra speculation: I think that my log dumping car ran between the extra rail and the center rail. It looks as if the coil couplers may have worked between the extra rail and the running rails.  I know the control box had a whole mess of contacts inside it. (There may be a couple 10 doors down the street, but we're still isolating.) (and not witha fiber pin)

 

[rockershovel]

1945-9 two rail uncoupler track https://www.tandem-associates.com/lionel/lionel_trains_rcs_track.htm

 

1950-69 electromagnet uncoupler track https://www.tandem-associates.com/lionel/lionel_trains_ucs_track.htm

 

Reading the literature, it’s clear that the purpose of the armature type, electromagnet operated coupler was to allow the operating cars to be operated from the hot shoe rails, without triggering the uncoupler at the same time. The service sheet clearly states that if this occurs, there is no defect! 

 

However, it’s also clear that the centre-magnet coupler obstructs the fitting of centre pick-up rollers on that truck. My 24xx coaches have rollers on both trucks, with the lighting connected directly to the trucks (which later ones don’t) and coil couplers on both trucks. 

 

So, it seems that any unit requiring hot-shoe operation, dictates coil-type couplers at that end, or a “dumb”, fixed coupler (at least two of my tank cars, are so equipped). Of course, given that the trucks are freely interchangeable, with no external wiring, that might be a later change, but I doubt it - it would work perfectly well in use, provided the cars were all the same way around. 

 

Given that the tooling undoubtedly still existed, and it was all produced in-house, and the four-rail tracks certainly continued until the 1960s, I’d speculate that Lionel fitted either type of coupler as it suited them into the 1960s

 

[rockershovel]

The later “thumb-tack” coupler found on plastic trucks, is a variant of the “armature plate” design, in which the metal plate (the “thumbtack”) is fully clear of the rollers. It’s probably cheaper, as well. The couplers and trucks were completely changed by MPC, to take advantage of their plastic moulding capabilities. 

 

The modern electro-couplers are are variant of the “armature” type which work without requiring a magnet in the track. 

[rockershovel]

Bought another small job lot on eBay over the Christmas period. I’ve now got enough O27 profile track in O42 and O54 sizes, including O42 points (switches) to do an enlarged version of the “door” layout on a 9’x5’ ping pong table, a very “period” thing which will accommodate the larger “scale sized” locos, plus a couple of O27 electric switches to build another “period” item, the “double crossover” which changes the direction automatically by interlinking the points.. that will keep me busy, I think. 

 

Right now the “door” layout is on trestles in the garage, for stripping the track, laying a Woodlands Scenics grass mate and some 11mm wiring conduits, and relaying the track (I can improve the various ad-hoc cuts inserted to make the geometry work out, at the same time). I’ve decided to shorten the wiring on the uncoupler tracks, and fit a bell push type button by each for simplicity’s sake (I only need the magnet, I don’t have any operating cars requiring the hot-shoe). It also dispenses with the rather elderly wiring on the uncoupler tracks, which is not as flexible as it might be. 

 

I’ve also picked up a Post-War type tipper car, so the question of the hopper car can be put aside. The discharge ramps aren’t hard to find, but but I can’t accomodate one in the space without making the layout “all about that” and introducing a rather fragile protruding feature. 

 

I still haven't found a Lionel oil derrick, which I think would be fun to have..

 

[rockershovel]

I’ve just received the three PostWar carriages back from a long-delayed job, to improve their general performance. Much as I like them, they appear to have spent many years in someone’s display cabinet and the wiring has become stiffened and perished, so they suffered from internal shorts. The common “flickering” of internal lights (they originally had two bulbs, each powered by a pickup on one truck) was unsatisfactory, and they tended to uncouple - presumably by voltage spikes and fluctuations triggering the coils. 

 

The original plan was to simply wire them together as a consist, but it was suggested that they be fitted with LED strips and capacitors. This hasn’t proved to be a cheap job, but works very well. The couplers stay coupled, they have a steady, soft light along their full lengths and as a bonus, the general running is improved (presumably by reducing and stabilising current draw, and avoiding spikes in the current). One loco in particular has a rather temperamental reversing unit, which would sometimes trigger unpredictably (that’s “sometimes”, in the sense of “pretty much all the time”) and this now seems to be cured. 

 

I must do the other carriages to match! 

[rockershovel]

Curiously enough, these carriages have a mixed bag of coil and armature plate couplers, as do the contemporary tank cars which came to me around the same time. Out of a total of seven cars, no car of either sort has more than one “hot shoe”, some have none. Two tank cars have “dummy” couplers at one end (these can be manually coupled, or coupled and uncoupled by either type of magnetic coupler) and one has a “hot shoe” truck with a “dummy” coupler, which might be a PO’s work-around of some sort. The plastic dummy couplers are a later item. 

 

The carriages were generally sold as a set of three, the tank cars individually. So, there could be a standard combination of couplers on the carriages, but not the tank cars. I’d guess that the coil couplers were superseded by armature plate type over time, on items originally so fitted, as inventory was exhausted. The crane truck is fitted with armature plate couplers both ends, as might be expected from its date of manufacture. 

 

Two cars have coil couplers with no power connection, at one end. All cars have at least one uncoupler. I find by experiment, that the coil couplers can be uncoupled using electromagnets, I suppose by induction and proximity since they aren’t apparently designed to work that way. Broadly speaking, the armature plate couplers are more functional than the coil type (particularly, they don’t suffer from the problem of triggering when passing over switches, which sometimes afflicts the coil type). The later “thumbtack” type are basically an updated version of the armature plate type. The coil couplers have returned on locos fitted with the various wireless, or remote signal control systems; but can’t be used throughout the train, except in combination with fixed uncoupler magnets. 

 

I suppose all of this is a general exercise in “modellers ingenuity” relating to the problems of sending multiple control signals through a very limited number of signal channels, in those pre-electronic days. 

 

Its also a case of “early adopter” issues, because the system of DCC loco control combined with mechanical couplers of the Kadee type is clearly a better solution. 

Edited January 28, 2021 by rockershovel

[BR60103]

I have an idea that the "Scout" sets had dummy couplers. They also had shorter than usual cars.

 

[rockershovel]

7 hours ago, BR60103 said:

I have an idea that the "Scout" sets had dummy couplers. They also had shorter than usual cars.

 

 

The “Scout” coupler is a unique item, a sort of early version of the Post-War electric un-coupler. It is almost compatible with the post-War couplers, given some light work with a file. It was quietly dropped around the time the armature plate coupler became the standard unit. I’ve got one somewhere, the 1101 2-4-2 which was my first Lionel venture had a coupler of that sort. 

 

The dummy couplers were a 1960s innovation, to take advantage of MPC’s plastics moulding capacity and produce a minimum cost coupler, compatible with the operating one - which was re-designed as the “thumb-tack” type to make use of moulded plastics 

 

“Scout” really refers to the loco, I think. The rolling stock is O27 size, with Scout trucks and couplers 

Edited January 29, 2021 by rockershovel

[rockershovel]

I’ve just unpacked the (early 90s) Lionel extruded aluminium cars which were also retired with capacitors and LED strips. It has certainly cured the flickering, but needs a bit more candlepower in a couple of places, notably the dome car. This has a classic piece of Pre-electronic design, a lucite strip which illuminates the table lamps in the dome. The LED strip doesn’t provide enough light, so I’ve re-inserted the bulbs as well, which seems to do the trick nicely. The bulb lights the lamps, and the electronics cure the flickering. I’ll try and get some pics of this. 

 

 

the Skytop Observation car Might also benefit from a bulb refitting, I’ll investigate further 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 1, 2021 by rockershovel

[rockershovel]

The Skytop car can stay as-is. On inspection, it seems to be a sleeper car and (in contrast to the other cars) has partial interior detail, rather than silhouettes in the windows. 

 

The observation dome has seats, and three seated figures. The corridor side has a (blank) wall inset from the windows, and a simulated “blind” detail on the other side. There are no lights in the dome, just ambient light from the corridor and the End Of Train unit