American 3-rail O, coarse scale

[brianusa]

Its going to be hard to justify US locos and stock all the way from the USA with the increase in postage for heavy articles.  Its bad enough in the home market let alone with all the import duties and taxes.

    Its got to the point where the postage is more than the purchase price in some cases.

            Brian.

[rockershovel]

12 minutes ago, brianusa said:

Its going to be hard to justify US locos and stock all the way from the USA with the increase in postage for heavy articles.  Its bad enough in the home market let alone with all the import duties and taxes.

    Its got to the point where the postage is more than the purchase price in some cases.

            Brian.

 

You’re not wrong. One of my locos came over in hand baggage; another in a container of drilling tools and spares. 

 

Exchange rate makes a big difference, too. A while ago the rate was around $2=£1 and I bought while the going was good, motorcycle parts in those days. 

Edited February 1, 2021 by rockershovel

[rockershovel]

I saw an article just recently, regarding the common assertion that “O27 is S Scale bodies on O Gauge mechanisms”. 

 

It appears that American Flyer did, shortly before WW2, produce a short-lived range consisting of exactly this - 3/16” scale bodies on 32mm gauge, 3 Rail track. S Scale, as such, didn’t exist at the time (at least in the mass production market, I don’t know its true origins). It was dropped (along with Lionel’s attempt at American OO) when production restarted in 1946, when AF introduced “true” S Scale on 2-Rail track (and Lionel ventured into HO). 

 

O27, from what I can see, represents a scale of around 1:55 on 32mm Gauge. 

[BR60103]

O27 is basicly a track standard -- lighter than the regular O gauge. It may be derived from a competitor that Lionel bought out? The product range overlapped with the O range, although there were some smaller cars that were O27 only. 

Lionel's OO range was possibly over ambitious. I think it came both Scale and Toy and 2 and 3-rail -- 4 variations on the locomotive. (I have seen very little of this.) Gauge quoted as 19mm.

The HO range began in the very late 50s. I have just found a catalog from 1959. They began it as a joint venture with one company, then switched to another. Athearn and Rivarossi IIRC, but not sure which order.

I heard that 3/16" scale began with the Cleveland something company which called it C-D gauge. When others picked it up, they wanted a name that didn't reference their competitor.

 

The important point with toy trains was that they operate on a your track. Matching proportions was a lesser consideration. Coupling with your trains was a problem. (Marx had 2 couplers; neither hooked up with Lionel.)  Of course, having a different system kept your market for yourself.

 

[rockershovel]

Cleveland Model Co do appear to be the originators of 2-Rail S Gauge, but didn’t succeed commercially 

 

 

The tooling appears to have been bought by American Flyer (then a competitor to Lionel and Marx in 3-Rail O Gauge) who attempted to use some of them in conjunction with their existing O Gauge track and mechanisms. A C Gilbert then relaunched the American Flyer brand as 2-Rail S Gauge after WW2. 

 

Lionel seemed to have dabbled with OO and HO, they were a successful brand at the time with money to spare, but concluded that the two ranges competed with each other at very different price points. Hornby decided that OO was the way forward, Lionel concentrated on what they knew, Lines Brothers used plastics technology to set the pace in the toy trains market (overlapping with 2-Rail scale modelling using the same technology).  Marx just carried on in their habitual fashion until they simply couldn’t continue. 

 

Nobody was really wrong. Lionel are still selling 3-Rail O Gauge, and a later competitor (MTH) which ventured into 2 Rail Scale in conjunction with 3 Rail and HO, has just announced its closure. K Line have come and gone. AF S Gauge is still with us, in a limited fashion, under the Lionel umbrella. Lines Bros’ Tri-Ang range are still with us, in many respects, under the Hornby banner. Lionel  subsequently took aboard much of that technology, mostly for manufacturing cheap, free-rolling rolling stock whilst retaining their signature die-cast locomotives

Edited February 7, 2021 by rockershovel

[rockershovel]

On 28/01/2021 at 08:32, rockershovel said:

I’ve just received the three PostWar carriages back from a long-delayed job, to improve their general performance. Much as I like them, they appear to have spent many years in someone’s display cabinet and the wiring has become stiffened and perished, so they suffered from internal shorts. The common “flickering” of internal lights (they originally had two bulbs, each powered by a pickup on one truck) was unsatisfactory, and they tended to uncouple - presumably by voltage spikes and fluctuations triggering the coils. 

 

The original plan was to simply wire them together as a consist, but it was suggested that they be fitted with LED strips and capacitors. This hasn’t proved to be a cheap job, but works very well. The couplers stay coupled, they have a steady, soft light along their full lengths and as a bonus, the general running is improved (presumably by reducing and stabilising current draw, and avoiding spikes in the current). One loco in particular has a rather temperamental reversing unit, which would sometimes trigger unpredictably (that’s “sometimes”, in the sense of “pretty much all the time”) and this now seems to be cured. 

 

I must do the other carriages to match! 

 

The four plastic-body, plastic-truck frame “Madison” coaches have now been wired the same way. The couplers were never an issue (they have the “thumb-tack” type) but the all-plastic chassis, lightweight wiper strips and plastic bogie frames (with nylon bearing inserts) are definitely not as good electrically. There’s a marked improvement, but more development needed, I think. 

[PatB]

On 07/02/2021 at 11:39, BR60103 said:

O27 is basicly a track standard -- lighter than the regular O gauge. It may be derived from a competitor that Lionel bought out? The product range overlapped with the O range, although there were some smaller cars that were O27 only. 

Lionel's OO range was possibly over ambitious. I think it came both Scale and Toy and 2 and 3-rail -- 4 variations on the locomotive. (I have seen very little of this.) Gauge quoted as 19mm.

The HO range began in the very late 50s. I have just found a catalog from 1959. They began it as a joint venture with one company, then switched to another. Athearn and Rivarossi IIRC, but not sure which order.

I heard that 3/16" scale began with the Cleveland something company which called it C-D gauge. When others picked it up, they wanted a name that didn't reference their competitor.

 

The important point with toy trains was that they operate on a your track. Matching proportions was a lesser consideration. Coupling with your trains was a problem. (Marx had 2 couplers; neither hooked up with Lionel.)  Of course, having a different system kept your market for yourself.

 

Marx had a lot more than 2 coupler designs, although not all simultaneously. I'm by no means an expert, but I can think of at least 7 variations off the top of my head, some being compatible with each other and some very much not.

[Keith Addenbrooke]

2 hours ago, PatB said:

Marx had a lot more than 2 coupler designs, although not all simultaneously. I'm by no means an expert, but I can think of at least 7 variations off the top of my head, some being compatible with each other and some very much not.

That does rather remind me of all the problems we now have with non-standard cellphone / laptop / other device chargers - it’s not a new problem or an old problem, and there will be many other examples (sorry, not very helpful - just a thought), Keith.

[rockershovel]

3 hours ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

That does rather remind me of all the problems we now have with non-standard cellphone / laptop / other device chargers - it’s not a new problem or an old problem, and there will be many other examples (sorry, not very helpful - just a thought), Keith.

 

It seems to be a general comment on US model trains, that manufacturers periodically change things and that multiple incompatible systems exist side by side. Another example would be the various more-or-less incompatible command control systems which presently exist, or the multiple iterations of MTH’s Proto Sound system. 

[PatB]

At least with Marx couplings at least some of the variations are compatible, others have features designed in to allow them to couple to superficially incompatible flavours and, if all else fails, creating adaptor cars is generally easy. Indeed, as long as you don't mind loose tenders in your train, or don't mind swapping bodies between tenders and stock, I'm pretty sure you could achieve most of the adaptations required using standard tenders, or at least their underframes.

[nsl714]

On 06/02/2021 at 07:06, rockershovel said:

It appears that American Flyer did, shortly before WW2, produce a short-lived range consisting of exactly this - 3/16” scale bodies on 32mm gauge, 3 Rail track. S Scale, as such, didn’t exist at the time (at least in the mass production market, I don’t know its true origins). It was dropped (along with Lionel’s attempt at American OO) when production restarted in 1946, when AF introduced “true” S Scale on 2-Rail track (and Lionel ventured into HO). 

 

I’ve shared this in another thread on the topic before, but it’s worth repeating here. Here’s a site which documents very well the brief history of American Flyer 3/16” scale trains on O gauge track.

 

https://gilbertogauge.blogspot.com/?m=1

 

-Zach

[rockershovel]

2 hours ago, nsl714 said:

 

I’ve shared this in another thread on the topic before, but it’s worth repeating here. Here’s a site which documents very well the brief history of American Flyer 3/16” scale trains on O gauge track.

 

https://gilbertogauge.blogspot.com/?m=1

 

-Zach

 

Those K5s are full of character! 

[rockershovel]

I haven't done much with this for a while, with work restarting and my good wife suddenly being called in for the second stage of her knee replacement surgery. 

 

However I was lately presented with a small sectional baseboard which fits up to 6' x 4' and fits easily in the car. It will accommodate a double oval of 042 with 054 transitions, outside an oval of 027 with 042 transitions. Of course being sectional, it can be expanded to any size... so the plan of a small sectional layout for club visits and possibly, exhibitions seems to be back on track, on that front at least. 

 

No news at all on the club front, I'm afraid. 

[rockershovel]

I'm still busy between work, my wife's recuperation and divers alarums and excursions attending my new grandson... acting as Club Steward for an ambitious grass track meeting (which went very well) ... I even managed a track day to give my much-delayed Yamaha project an outing...  but I have managed to sort out the base sections. I've also been experimenting with track plans, so the next job is to produce two additional baseboards. First, a 4x4 section which will accommodate a central crossover and reversing loops for the O27 inner loop. Second, a pair of 4ft extension boards to combine with the existing centre sections and provide a "working accesory" area, particularly to use side tipper wagons. The whole thing will fit in the back of an estate car (less legs) and overcome the portability issues which affect the "door" layout.

[rockershovel]

After innumerable delays and the extension of my Ipswich drilling job by several months (which doesn't grieve me TOO much) life is settling down. Racing season is basically over, my daughters move is complete and I'm starting a new job close to home, office hours for the winter. I've had the Williams Light Pacific running on the rolling Road as a sort of celebration and looking forward to actually making progress all round, over the winter

[rockershovel]

Here's the LED/capacitor conversion to the Lionel 24xx coaches. Bulbs are removed and wires soldered in place to link the two roller pickups, so that both rollers serve the LED strip and act as common earth.

 

The uncoupling issue is a separate matter, the couplers on these coaches are a short-lived solenoid pattern operated by a hot-shoe on the underside of the bogie. I'll deal with that later. 

 

Lights are now stable with a stay-alive of about 20 secs. Historic issues with perished insulation are eliminated 

 

 

[rockershovel]

I saw some MTH 15" coaches advertised as a set on ebay. No-one seemed go want them so I made a bid and won them.

 

I'm very pleased with them, now they've come. The cast trucks are definitely superior to the all-plastic Lionel ones, the rollers on all trucks pick up better and the interiors are nice - they need some passengers!

 

The rubber diaphragms (US speak for corridor connections) are also a worthwhile addition compared to Lionel. 

[rockershovel]

The MTH coaches are 1930s style steel-body Pullman heavyweights with clerestory roofs, a type known to US hobbyists as "Madisons" after a name featured prominently on a sometime Lionel set - it doesn't ever appear to be used by actual railroad enthusiasts or operators 

Edited November 5, 2021 by rockershovel

[rockershovel]

Trains proverbially come in threes and I've followed the NYC Madisons with a set of 15" PRR ones (to accompany the K4). These are K Line, so cast trucks but silhouette windows... however as they are consistent I can live with that. A set of 4 NIB plus another for a total outlay, delivered of a little over £200.

 

I'm looking forward to the resumption of NAROGG meetings, presently pencilled in for April... I'm a habitual joiner of clubs....

[rockershovel]

15" coaches are definitely the thing to have. The 18" ones are unwieldy in small spaces and the 21" ones DEFINITELY need serious operating room. 

 

Plus it brings the whole question of model railway image and illusion into play. The 15" ones are definitely, indefinable longer than the 13 1/2", O27 ones, much more than the difference between the 15" and 18" units. A train of 4 15" units behind the larger, MTH or K Line "semi scale" locos looks like a train, and 5 15" units behind the "scale size" MTH K4 or Williams Hudson looks like a train. 

 

Next job is to sort out the Lionel O27 Berkshire and coaches for around the Xmas tree. 

[rockershovel]

One thing which didn't get done, was sorting out the front pilot (bogie) on the Williams Hudson. 

 

This has been through various iterations of wheel diameter and flange profile. The easiest solution would be to re-fit the "ballet shoes" tiny front-wheel set, which copes with O31 and O36 curves easily but looks faintly absurd. 

 

The current configuration, a K Line front pilot, doesn't run satisfactorily. The larger, turned steel wheels from Walsall Model Industries look good but won't reliably handle curves below O48 (I suspect that the flexure inherent in tinplate track on carpet, is part of the problem).

 

More development needed here, I think 

[goldfish]

On 29/12/2021 at 06:45, rockershovel said:

The larger, turned steel wheels from Walsall Model Industries look good but won't reliably handle curves below O48

 

Just a thought, are the flanges on Walsall wheels thinner than the other wheels? If they are, try increasing the back to back slightly. It has worked for me in the past with wagons that refuse to be pushed through points. Adding washers to reduce the side play on the axles might also help.

Edited January 2, 2022 by goldfish
Corrected content.

[rockershovel]

1 hour ago, goldfish said:

 

Just a thought, are the flanges on Walsall wheels thinner than the other wheels? If they are, try increasing the back to back slightly. It has worked for me in the past with wagons that refuse to be pushed through points. Adding washers to reduce the side play on the axles might also help.

I was intending to have this loco on the workbench after 12th Night (when the tree etc goes back in the loft and the study is free of the present accumulation of boxes) so I will try that 

[sncf231e]

Today I ran some Lionel prewar and postwar trains in the garden:

Regards

Fred

[rockershovel]

Missed out on the first NAROGG running day since... oh, a long time ago due to too many things on one day! I had my Williams Brass 4-6-2 and some MTH Heavyweight coaches boxed up ready, but next time...

 

I've also now collected a complete circle of Lionel Fastrack O72, which means I can run the Williams Hudson with its scale front wheels... I need some 30" straights, though. 

 

 

Edited June 16, 2022 by rockershovel