baseboard questions

[rich16]

Hi guys, first post. 

 

I built my then 4 your old son a model railway a few years back. I purchased a 6x4 board as flat pack with folding legs and assembled it. I pinned the track direct to the board and ballasted on top. It's a busy 6x4 with a lot going on. He loves it and it's had some serious hours gone into it! I had fun making it but learnt a few things on the way.

 

We have since moved, and have a little more space. I purchased a load of timber on wednesday and I'm going to attempt to make two 4x4 boards that join together. Made a start last night but didnt get so far (no rush) 

 

I just have a few questions. I have searched on these but the info is quite conflicting and I just wanted to ask my own questions if that makes sense. 

 

1. Our current layout is noisy! I always wished I used cork as it's pinned to the board directly. I've seen on searches this morning that using pins is bad. And using cork makes no real difference. I saw a great video on youtube where a Dad & lad we're using woodland scenics foam. Looked great. He glued the foam to the board, and the track to the foam. Any ideas on this? It also makes a shoulder for the ballast which looks good. 

 

2. I've had a go with SCARM but it's driving me mental. With the 6x4 I purchased a load (more than I needed) of new - ex set track off ebay and just played with it until I was happy. This seemed easier, SCARM is free but I run out of track I was allowed to use for free on there! Are there any other free programs, or one's worth buying? Or was my first way of doing it the best. Which leads me onto the next question.

 

3. The plan originally was to remove all the track from the 6x4 and then sell the board on ebay etc. Then I'll have the majority of the track I'll need for the new 8x4. However, i'm now thinking it's going to be mega time consuming to remove the old track pins (must be hundreds), ballast and then clean the track sufficiently to start again. Would I be better off just selling the 6x4 as it is with the track fixed? It might make it easier to sell and it means I can start fresh. The 6x4 has two outer loops. With a siding down the whole of the opposite 6ft edge. Points the other end with two sidings. An inner branch line that comes off the inner loop and has points leading to two stations and a siding in the middle. And on the other side of the inner loop another small section of track leads to the other side of the station. I think it could be a big task removing all that. It also has grass in lots of areas, a road way I made out of skateboard tape (looks quite good actually but it's not an exhibition) And a pond. Im not sure what the board is worth with or without track but Im guessing there's well over £150 of track on there when new. 

 

4. I think I'm ok with making the baseboard, the join and the wiring. But I've never made legs before. They need to be removable. I have enough timber to make 8 legs, about 3.5ft high (I'll confirm height and get more if needed) I've never built legs before. I thought if in each corner making two sides of a square with spare timber so the leg just slots in, and two bolts/wing nuts? Is this a good idea. Sorry for a silly question. 

 

5. With my scarm efforts, I was struggling to picture it in reality. I was wondering if a platform over the join would be possible. Obviously there will be a gap but has anyone done this before and got it looking ok? Otherwise I feel a station may be squashed at one end. We also like the idea and novelty of a turntable! With sidings leading off it. We have a lot of engines because he has a few he's had for christmas's and birthdays and I've a lot from when I was young. Add to that I've accidently won a few ebay listings over the years! My son's 7 and at that age as I'm sure some of you know, he likes to change engines quite frequently. I envisiaged it would be nice have a few sat at the edge of a turntable rather than him taking them off the track and scattering them all over the table. But I'm worried about this join. 

 

6. I will research this more. But in terms of ballasting, last time on the 6x4 I used one colour of ballast throughout. It looks nice and Im pretty proud of the job I did. I've seen a lot worse. But all been once colour, I guess it could have been more realistic. Where engines park in sheds/sidings and at the end of stations, often I notice in real life the ballast/track is black. Id love to do this to add some realisim. 

 

7. The grass I used before was like a powder. I've seen some that looks literally like real strands of grass stood up. I've also seen some modelers put some overgrowing grass between track on sidings etc. What brand is this? looks fantastic. 

 

8. This is an odd one! And again I will research this in more detail once the tables are built. My son is quite a competent motorcycle trials rider, his 11 year old sister rides to in the British champs. I'm not sure if anyone is familiar with trials (think Dougie Lampkin/kickstart etc) But with all the space you end up with on an 8x4, I thought it would be cool to make a mini' trials' area, a stoney/gravelly area with boulders and a couple of to scale bikes in mid wheelie up them. (the scale is oo btw) Im not sure if you can buy to scale rocks, but I think it could look really cool. Anyone modelled anything like this before? I also thought of a small area with some soldiers in. I served in the Irish Guards before my son was born and he's forever asking about this. I think it's important at that age for him to have multiple interests and not just be dominated by sitting in doors playing trains. But even for adults as I'm sure you all know, on a dark winter evening after some dinner, it's quite therapeutic to just sit and play trains and forget the worlds problems for a while!

 

9. Previously I've struggled to glue down small things like sheep, cows, people on a platform etc. Plastic glue isnt strong enough, I didnt want to use super glue but is that the answer?

 

I think that's it. Sorry for such a long first post! 

Edited October 4, 2019 by rich16

[Dungrange]

1 hour ago, rich16 said:

1. Our current layout is noisy! I always wished I used cork as it's pinned to the board directly. I've seen on searches this morning that using pins is bad. And using cork makes no real difference. I saw a great video on youtube where a Dad & lad we're using woodland scenics foam. Looked great. He glued the foam to the board, and the track to the foam. Any ideas on this? It also makes a shoulder for the ballast which looks good. 

 

The problem with pinning the track directly the baseboard is that the vibrations caused by the electric motors rotating are transferred directly to the baseboard, which acts as an amplifier, a bit like the body of an acoustic guitar.  The intention of using cork is to act as a damper.  Cork does provide some damping because it is a softer material with voids in its structure.  The problem is that many people use cork and then ballast using PVA glue which soaks into these voids and makes the cork layer one solid hard layer, thus removing it's abilities to damp down the vibrations and therefore removing it's ability to reduce noise.  Therefore, if using cork to reduce noise, it's important that you use a latex based glue that wont penetrate the voids.  That said, I intend to use the Woodland Scenics foam, plus some from C&L, but I can't pass judgement on it yet.

 

1 hour ago, rich16 said:

2. I've had a go with SCARM but it's driving me mental. With the 6x4 I purchased a load (more than I needed) of new - ex set track off ebay and just played with it until I was happy. This seemed easier, SCARM is free but I run out of track I was allowed to use for free on there! Are there any other free programs, or one's worth buying? Or was my first way of doing it the best. Which leads me onto the next question.

 

I've never tried SCARM, but you could try Anyrail.  The free version has a 50 track piece limit, but that should be enough for a small layout.

 

1 hour ago, rich16 said:

3. The plan originally was to remove all the track from the 6x4 and then sell the board on ebay etc. Then I'll have the majority of the track I'll need for the new 8x4. However, i'm now thinking it's going to be mega time consuming to remove the old track pins (must be hundreds), ballast and then clean the track sufficiently to start again. Would I be better off just selling the 6x4 as it is with the track fixed? It might make it easier to sell and it means I can start fresh. The 6x4 has two outer loops. With a siding down the whole of the opposite 6ft edge. Points the other end with two sidings. An inner branch line that comes off the inner loop and has points leading to two stations and a siding in the middle. And on the other side of the inner loop another small section of track leads to the other side of the station. I think it could be a big task removing all that. It also has grass in lots of areas, a road way I made out of skateboard tape (looks quite good actually but it's not an exhibition) And a pond. Im not sure what the board is worth with or without track but Im guessing there's well over £150 of track on there when new. 

 

If the track was ballasted, then I think it will be difficult to lift most of it without damage.  Yes, you'll get some of it lifted okay, but perhaps not as much as you think.  It will also be time consuming trying to get all the glue etc off the previous baseboard to make it saleable and I'm not sure that there will be a great market.  Why would someone pay what you paid for the board when they could just get a new board without glue marks and bits of ballast etc.  My feeling is that you'd be better to sell the railway as is: baseboard, track etc.  Someone else may be willing to take it off your hands for their own son to run Thomas on.  You'll probably make a loss over what you have spent on it, but it has given you and your son pleasure.

 

1 hour ago, rich16 said:

6. I will research this more. But in terms of ballasting, last time on the 6x4 I used one colour of ballast throughout. It looks nice and I'm pretty proud of the job I did. I've seen a lot worse. But all been once colour, I guess it could have been more realistic. Where engines park in sheds/sidings and at the end of stations, often I notice in real life the ballast/track is black. Id love to do this to add some realism. 

 

7. The grass I used before was like a powder. I've seen some that looks literally like real strands of grass stood up. I've also seen some modellers put some overgrowing grass between track on sidings etc. What brand is this? looks fantastic. 

 

Regarding ballast, just do exactly what you did before and then 'weather it' just like the real thing.  Black ballast is not laid black, but started the same colour as the rest.  If you are trying to replicate diesel leaks, then just add some watered down black paint.  If your trying to replicate coal dust and ash, then simply add this over the top of your ballast.

 

Regarding grass, I think what you are referring to is known as 'static grass' of which there are a few suppliers.  Basically, you spread the area with glue and then apply the fibres through an applicator which has a battery between the sieve and a probe that you stick into the glue.  This means that the fibres become charged as they fall through this sieve and effectively stand on end.

 

Good luck with the new layout, whatever you decide on.

Edited October 4, 2019 by Dungrange

[rob D2]

On note 6, I’m also trying to produce the disgusting gunk that accumulates where older diesels sit.

I’m using filler over the ballast to make it flatish, tamiya rubber black paint ( has a slight blue sheen ) and then selective tamiya semi gloss varnish.

 

experiment so far 

 

 

[GeoffAlan]

I've pinned through cork for my layout and it worked well, My permanent layout is built on internal doors. The predominant noise of a train is clickity clack, although I do have a few noisy locos, with gear whine, that drown it out..

[brossard]

I've been playing around with this foam:

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/stocklist/1000484/1000588/1000678/0/woodland_scenics_oo_gauge_1_76_scale_track_underlay/prodlist.aspx 

 

also using Tacky Glue to fix it to the board and track to the foam:

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/slp/tacky-glue/kkftvtwnf8nb8e4 

 

Tacky Glue dries with a rubbery texture.  It holds but doesn't bond so lifting track if you make a mistake is fairly easy.

 

John

[ISW]

1 hour ago, brossard said:

I've been playing around with this foam:

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/stocklist/1000484/1000588/1000678/0/woodland_scenics_oo_gauge_1_76_scale_track_underlay/prodlist.aspx 

 

John

 

2 hours ago, Dungrange said:

 

 Therefore, if using cork to reduce noise, it's important that you use a latex based glue that wont penetrate the voids.  That said, I intend to use the Woodland Scenics foam, plus some from C&L, but I can't pass judgement on it yet.

 

Gents,

 

As a cheaper alternative to the Woodland Scenic foam, have you considered this stuff from Homebase. It's 3mm thick (I think Woodlands is 4mm?) but you get 10m2 for ~£38. It's what I'm using on my layout (see link in footer) and it does perform quite well in the acoustics department.

 

[BR60103]

I used a lot of WS roadbed on my layout.  I glued it using variations on WS scenic cement and their foam glue.  (Lots of WS available over here.)  I put the track down and noted the center line with line and pins, put the roadbed down to the pins and glued it. Then I put the track in place with pins outside the rails between the sleepers, and then added glue. More pins at an angle to hold the track down tight.

I used a softer material than plywood as a base (Homasote, but it's hard to get) and pins go right in.

 

I use WS Accent Glue to stick down scenery items. This is like rubber cement but seems only to stick to one surface. You are supposed to be able to pick the item up and stick it somewhere else. The Glue is often stronger than paint and some fastened down grass.

 

[rich16]

Thankyou all so much for your replies, really appreciated. 

 

I have built one 4x4 table. It went quite well, few minor hick ups but part of the learning process. I still want to take it apart again and glue the joints now I'm happy, work out a good way to secure the legs and then varnish it. I'll then pop it out the way and start the second one. Im hoping to pickup a job lot of good track on ebay or something. I may go peco this time. The brown sleepers are a nice touch also thanks again 

[Pete the Elaner]

Cork helps to dampen the noise a lot. As mentioned earlier, if you add ballast & soak it with dilute PVA, this soaks into the cork & the lot sets rock hard, which completely destroys any sound deadening provided by the cork.

I have glued my track with Copydex, but only around the scenic section. I have also fixed the ballast with Copydex & have small sections slightly off-scene which are glued but not ballasted. In the fiddle yard, the track is pinned onto the cork.

I can hear a train go from fiddle yard to the area which is glued but not ballasted, then hear the sound change again as it goes onto the ballasted section. It is still nowhere near as loud as on track which has been ballasted with dilute PVA but, if you don't intend to ballast your track, pinning it is definitely the quietest (& the least messy).

[ikcdab]

On 04/10/2019 at 14:58, ISW said:

 

Gents,

 

As a cheaper alternative to the Woodland Scenic foam, have you considered this stuff from Homebase. It's 3mm thick (I think Woodlands is 4mm?) but you get 10m2 for ~£38. It's what I'm using on my layout (see link in footer) and it does perform quite well in the acoustics department.

 

I've used laminates floor underlay for everything. I've used the flat sheets. It's inexpensive and works really well. I just glue everything to it.  

[rich16]

Hi guys. Had my head turned a little by the ballasted foam. It looks good enough and the sound deadening must be good. I see you glue that to the board and then glue the track to the foam. A little put off by then having to raise the platforms, and also my join in the board. Ive never done it so excuse me if it's daft but I cant picture if it would be harder to line up. 

 

I did think about covering the whole 8x4 board in a layer of cork or similar first. I have countersunk all my screws but I just thought it would be nice to have it all fresh and flat. Then either the ballasted foam, woodland scenics type foam and then ballasted on top, or maybe just glue to the cork and ballast after. 

 

There is almost to much choice. I guess it's great if your well into it, but my mind is literally boggled! 

 

I also liked the look of the wood sleeper track peco do. But I think (not looked much) that you can only get flexi track or points. I'm planning to have min double loop and then maybe another half a loop with an X crossing, so a train can start at a station, cross through the middle of 3 tracks and then end up back where it started a lap later (going for as much play factor as poss) Be a lot of messing with flexi track I think.

 

We love all the gimmicks if you like. Smoke unit locos, electric turn table, electric traffic lights, fire box glows etc. I was looking into point motors etc etc. It's all good fun! 

 

Edited October 8, 2019 by rich16

[rich16]

On 04/10/2019 at 14:58, ISW said:

 

Gents,

 

As a cheaper alternative to the Woodland Scenic foam, have you considered this stuff from Homebase. It's 3mm thick (I think Woodlands is 4mm?) but you get 10m2 for ~£38. It's what I'm using on my layout (see link in footer) and it does perform quite well in the acoustics department.

 

https://www.homebase.co.uk/vitrex-4-star-sound-reduction-underlay-10sqm_p095250

 

Is that the one? 

 

Did you cut to go under the track only? 

[ISW]

Rich(?),

 

Yeah, that's the one.  You can see how I used it in the photos on my layout page at https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/133913-burton-on-trent-south-ramps/ (also see link in footer). So far I've used in on my lower level (non-scenic) baseboards, and just used it under the tracks (and between tracks where tracks are close). I've also used it on my ramps (going up/down to the upper level), where I used up all the 'bits' I had spare on some sections and fully across the ramp width on others. Again, the ramps aren't scenic. Both the lower level and the ramps aren't, and will not be, ballasted.

 

Once I get to the upper (scenic) level I'll 'probably' be installing under the tracks only, but I will be extending it to the edge of the track ballast. If I don't the ballast will just transmit the vibrations to the baseboard, obviating the isolation effects of the underlay.

 

[teaky]

4 hours ago, rich16 said:

https://www.homebase.co.uk/vitrex-4-star-sound-reduction-underlay-10sqm_p095250

 

Is that the one? 

 

Did you cut to go under the track only? 

I often find B&Q to be on the pricey side.  If you shop around, the underlay can be found for less, e.g. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Acoustic-Underlay-for-Solid-Wood-Floors-Self-Adhesive-Identical-to-Diall/181158311892?hash=item2a2de077d4:g:thcAAOxy0bRTFfgx

 

I bought some of this recently and, although I have not used it yet, I'm happy with the quality.

[Bluemonkey presents....]

17 hours ago, teaky said:

I often find B&Q to be on the pricey side.  If you shop around, the underlay can be found for less, e.g. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Acoustic-Underlay-for-Solid-Wood-Floors-Self-Adhesive-Identical-to-Diall/181158311892?hash=item2a2de077d4:g:thcAAOxy0bRTFfgx

 

I bought some of this recently and, although I have not used it yet, I'm happy with the quality.

Agreed. I have used this and it really does reduce the vibration noise, again I am yet to ballast. I am also using cork under the track to create the bed and shoulder for mainlines.

[rich16]

56 minutes ago, No46 said:

Agreed. I have used this and it really does reduce the vibration noise, again I am yet to ballast. I am also using cork under the track to create the bed and shoulder for mainlines.

 

Sorry for a silly question but to clarify, you laid the underlay on the whole of your board, and then also put cork underneath the track. 

 

Did you raise your platforms? 

 

And was it just glue or glue and pin. Thanks

[Bluemonkey presents....]

Yes ccovered the entire boards because I wanted to work from a complete level all over. I am modelling a mainline station with associated  yards so just the foam under the rail at 3mm would be way too high for my requires. I have used cork underlay 1mm max under just the mainlines as these are higher on my chosen location. I have not yet fixed any track or cork. The foam is self adhesive but I may use some glue in a few areas to sure fixing. 

I am still deciding on how to fix the track and ballast.

I don't think I will need to raise platforms as everything will have to be completely scratch built the card platforms you see in the pictures of my layout build thread (top of page 3) are just guides but from Metcalfe kits and they appear fine to my eye with the cork.