cctransuk Posted October 5, 2019 Share Posted October 5, 2019 I am about to start on a model of 51202, which was the 'Pug' that was cut down for use at Radstock on the S&DJR. The two BR-era photos that I have show the locomotive immediately after the LMS markings were over-painted and the BR number added - the latter in a non-standard style; and later, when in service at Radstock, but still with the non-standard numbering. 51202 was a fairly early withdrawal, but I wonder if it was ever repainted in the BR early crest / Gill Sans number style. Does anyone know of a later photo that may answer this question? Many thanks in anticipation. Regards, John Isherwood. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold adb968008 Posted October 5, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 5, 2019 (edited) 29 minutes ago, cctransuk said: I am about to start on a model of 51202, which was the 'Pug' that was cut down for use at Radstock on the S&DJR. The two BR-era photos that I have show the locomotive immediately after the LMS markings were over-painted and the BR number added - the latter in a non-standard style; and later, when in service at Radstock, but still with the non-standard numbering. 51202 was a fairly early withdrawal, but I wonder if it was ever repainted in the BR early crest / Gill Sans number style. Does anyone know of a later photo that may answer this question? Many thanks in anticipation. Regards, John Isherwood. Picture here in RCTS archive shows BR Early Emblem, in 1953 https://rcts.zenfolio.com/steam-lmsr/lancashire-yorkshire-railway/0f-aspinall-class-21-0-4-0st-pug/hA88C21B1#ha88c21b1 22A shed code. Edited October 5, 2019 by adb968008 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted October 5, 2019 Author Share Posted October 5, 2019 12 minutes ago, adb968008 said: Picture here in RCTS archive shows BR Early Emblem, in 1953 https://rcts.zenfolio.com/steam-lmsr/lancashire-yorkshire-railway/0f-aspinall-class-21-0-4-0st-pug/hA88C21B1#ha88c21b1 22A shed code. Thank you - *exactly* what I was hoping for ! I don't like that non-standard early BR style of numbering - it's not what a 'Pug' should look like. (Says he - whose impression of a 'Pug' is the illustration on the front of the Kitmaster kit box). My model of 51202 will be a Hornby body sans cab; with a cut-down cab from Kitmaster parts; and a High Level kit chassis. I would shorten a 51L turned brass chimney if they were not out of stock; (anyone got a spare one)? (Why *did* Kitmaster provide standard buffers when the prototype had dumb buffers)? Regards, John Isherwood. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sir douglas Posted October 5, 2019 Share Posted October 5, 2019 the l&Y pugs originally had sprung buffers then later dumb buffers 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted October 5, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 5, 2019 The Kitmaster/Airfix/Dapol/Kitmaster again plastic kit has no covers over the slidebars/crosshead/piston assembly, and has small numbers that I’ve never seen in prototype photos. IIRC there is no smokebox number or number plate moulding either. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted October 5, 2019 Author Share Posted October 5, 2019 1 hour ago, sir douglas said: the l&Y pugs originally had sprung buffers then later dumb buffers True - but the model was provided with BR-period markings. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted October 5, 2019 Author Share Posted October 5, 2019 1 hour ago, The Johnster said: The Kitmaster/Airfix/Dapol/Kitmaster again plastic kit has no covers over the slidebars/crosshead/piston assembly, and has small numbers that I’ve never seen in prototype photos. IIRC there is no smokebox number or number plate moulding either. I anticipate that the High Level chassis kit will provide slidebar covers; (or I'll produce them from brass shim). The transfers will be my own production, based on photos of the prototype; (I note that 51202 has a non-standard 'curly' smokebox numberplate). I am also going to model 51218 in standard 'Pug' format with the later BR markings; again based on the Dapol / Hornby body moulding. Regards, John Isherwood. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCB Posted October 6, 2019 Share Posted October 6, 2019 20 hours ago, cctransuk said: Thank you - *exactly* what I was hoping for ! I don't like that non-standard early BR style of numbering - it's not what a 'Pug' should look like. (Says he - whose impression of a 'Pug' is the illustration on the front of the Kitmaster kit box). My model of 51202 will be a Hornby body sans cab; with a cut-down cab from Kitmaster parts; and a High Level kit chassis. I would shorten a 51L turned brass chimney if they were not out of stock; (anyone got a spare one)? (Why *did* Kitmaster provide standard buffers when the prototype had dumb buffers)? Regards, John Isherwood. I have several Airfix /Dapol Pug remains and the cab moulding is distorted in all of them. The back is not square and the sides are at a noticeable angle to the vertical when the buffer beam is horizontal. When the back is filed square the rivets don't align. It took me ages to realise why the body didn't look right on my home made chassis so I bought more bodies and they were all the same. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCB Posted October 6, 2019 Share Posted October 6, 2019 (edited) 20 hours ago, sir douglas said: the l&Y pugs originally had sprung buffers then later dumb buffers The buffer beams are too low to mount conventional buffers. I made my Pug too high assuming the buffer centre lines to be a constant as I used sprung buffers in the Airfix position. Oh well back to the bodging bench. I wonder if the convention was a 3ft or 3ft 3" buffer height back in 1879 or when ever these were designed? A lot of locos from this era had very low running plates and the top of the buffer beams above the running plate. LBSCR Terriers and GWR 850 and 2021 spring to mind. Edited October 6, 2019 by DavidCBroad Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Posted October 6, 2019 Share Posted October 6, 2019 20 hours ago, The Johnster said: The Kitmaster/Airfix/Dapol/Kitmaster again plastic kit has no covers over the slidebars/crosshead/piston assembly, and has small numbers that I’ve never seen in prototype photos. IIRC there is no smokebox number or number plate moulding either. Quickly checking my still-unbuilt Airfix kit I can confirm that although clearly shown on the box art, there is indeed no smoke-box plate. Oddly enough though , despite an errant puff of steam slightly obscuring them, the slidebars are exposed as they are in the kit Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMS2968 Posted October 6, 2019 Share Posted October 6, 2019 Standard buffer height is 3' 6". The height to the centre of the dumb buffers of a Pug was 3' 3", and some variation of heights in the early years was normal, although I didn't think so when these engines were introduced, November 1891, and the last appearing in July 1910. Original sprung buffers had 13" heads, later increased to 18" for obvious reasons. The dumb buffers came in 1901 on new orders and earlier engines were made to conform. The slide bar covers were a result of the single central sandbox being replaced by two, the leading one immediately above the slidebars in the early years of the Twentieth Century. They were heavy, and fitters occasionally left them off to ease their labours, refitting them before the engines went to Horwich for overhaul! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted October 6, 2019 Author Share Posted October 6, 2019 Thanks to Tony McSean, I have now managed to source all of the parts, including a turned brass replacement chimney, for 51218. As to 51202; I have a Hornby body sans cab; a Kitmaster kit to provide the cab components (to be modified into the cut-down cab); a High Level chassis kit and a set of Gibson wheels have been ordered. I will turn a brass cut-down chimney in the lathe, using the one for 51218 as a guide to dimensions. What I still need for 51202 is a set of Hornby X8231 / X8231 cylinders / slide bars; the motion bracket is available from Peters Spares. If anyone has a set of these cylinders / slide bars for disposal, please PM me. Regards, John Isherwood. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PenrithBeacon Posted October 6, 2019 Share Posted October 6, 2019 5 hours ago, cctransuk said: Thanks to Tony McSean, I have now managed to source all of the parts, including a turned brass replacement chimney, for 51218. As to 51202; I have a Hornby body sans cab; a Kitmaster kit to provide the cab components (to be modified into the cut-down cab); a High Level chassis kit and a set of Gibson wheels have been ordered. I will turn a brass cut-down chimney in the lathe, using the one for 51218 as a guide to dimensions. What I still need for 51202 is a set of Hornby X8231 / X8231 cylinders / slide bars; the motion bracket is available from Peters Spares. If anyone has a set of these cylinders / slide bars for disposal, please PM me. Regards, John Isherwood. I've had a long standing search for those on eBay for at least the last two years, no joy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruston Posted October 6, 2019 Share Posted October 6, 2019 On 05/10/2019 at 15:08, cctransuk said: I anticipate that the High Level chassis kit will provide slidebar covers; (or I'll produce them from brass shim). The transfers will be my own production, based on photos of the prototype; (I note that 51202 has a non-standard 'curly' smokebox numberplate). I am also going to model 51218 in standard 'Pug' format with the later BR markings; again based on the Dapol / Hornby body moulding. Regards, John Isherwood. John - the HL kit does not provide slidebar covers. Here's my 'pug' with the HL chassis. The cylinders, slide bars and covers all are original Hornby parts. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted October 6, 2019 Author Share Posted October 6, 2019 2 hours ago, Ruston said: John - the HL kit does not provide slidebar covers. Here's my 'pug' with the HL chassis. The cylinders, slide bars and covers all are original Hornby parts. Looks like Kitmaster / Airfix cylinders / slidebars and scratchbuilt brass shim covers, then! Nothing is ever easy, is it? Regards, John Isherwood. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilkirby Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 (edited) Hi, just found this thread, interesting that in the latter picture 51202 has it's whistle back on the cab front, seems odd that if the cab was cut down why they would move the whistle on to the roof in the first place? Regards, Neil Edited April 24, 2020 by neilkirby typo Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted April 24, 2020 Author Share Posted April 24, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, neilkirby said: Hi, just found this thread, interesting that in the latter picture 51202 has it's whistle back on the cab front, seems odd that if the cab was cut down why they would move the whistle on to the roof in the first place? Regards, Neil Neil, A bit of research has indicated to me that the cutting-down of the cab roof did not affect the central roof area; only the eaves. I'm not sure why the whistle was moved but, if the arch was tight but not flattened, the whistle would have cleared the top of the arch. My understanding is that the arch which dictated the cab modifications was originally for a horse-worked colliery line, so a narrow but high-ish arch would make sense. Regards, John Isherwood. Edited April 24, 2020 by cctransuk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pobrien Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 The loco at Bristol Barrow Road - the crest just about visible Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted April 25, 2020 Author Share Posted April 25, 2020 1 hour ago, Pobrien said: The loco at Bristol Barrow Road - the crest just about visible Thank you for that - exactly how I intend to finish my model. Regards, john isherwood. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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