Mk1 BSO.T Scotrail branding question.

[SC55015]

I found another negative with a BSOT - a withdrawn unidentified Commonwealth bogie example at Thornton Junction on 8 December 1990. Not the best quality, this visit was late in the afternoon and the light was not wonderful. Of note though is that someone has taken off the white buffet window cover from behind the counter and stick it in the middle full size window. And its not flat, so this could just be the white layer taken off the timber.

 

 

[03060]

.... and they haven't used Railtec transfers either, just look at that transfer film left around the ScotRail legend !!

[young37215]

8 hours ago, SC55015 said:

I found another negative with a BSOT - a withdrawn unidentified Commonwealth bogie example at Thornton Junction on 8 December 1990. Not the best quality, this visit was late in the afternoon and the light was not wonderful. Of note though is that someone has taken off the white buffet window cover from behind the counter and stick it in the middle full size window. And its not flat, so this could just be the white layer taken off the timber.

 

 

 

The window covers that I have seen look a simple internal affair made of laminate and screwed into the existing window frame. The 2023 picture below is of the arrangement on 9003 which I reckon is original judging by its condition and similarity to the surrounding laminate. I would guess that the cover was something that could easily be removed, the GWSR have done just that on 9000 effectively reinstating the original window arrangement.  

 

Visually the coach looks in reasonable order suggesting it is not long withdrawn and I am purely guessing but I fancy 9007 is a likely candidate following its withdrawl in late 1990. 

 

 

 

[thegreenhowards]

The spreadsheet will be very useful - thanks ‘billywhizz’ and Rob. A couple of suggestions from me. It would be worth having a column for window beading - that caught me out on 9016. Also Rob, have you got the buffet blanking colours the wrong way round on 9016/16? I thought 9015 was black and 9016 was white (possibly black at some point). 
 

Andy

[young37215]

Updated spreadsheet attached, @thegreenhowards is correct in that I had mixed up 9015 and 9016. I have made a a few small amendments and added a column for window beading although I am not certain as to what precisely should be recorded. It should also be noted that I have created 2 rows for 9000 and 9001 both of which appeared to undergo some form of update during their short lives. Doing this allows the reader to determine which layout is most suitable for their chosen model/era. The only additional information that I would like to have added but can find very little about is the window on the opposite of the blanked off one where variations on the Buffet/Micro Buffet can be found. 

 

 

 

Edited November 3, 2023 by young37215

[SC55015]

8 hours ago, young37215 said:

 

Visually the coach looks in reasonable order suggesting it is not long withdrawn and I am purely guessing but I fancy 9007 is a likely candidate following its withdrawl in late 1990.

 

 

Yes, 9007 is a good candidate, and I can see no reasons comparing it with known photos of 9007 that it is not. The "BUFFET" (not MICRO-BUFFET) on white would be correct, the only vehicle that is known to have had this (although there are still a few vehicles with unknown styles).

If it is 9007, then it has had the buffet sign on the non-counter side changed at some point as it was a white strip in this 1980 image at Coldham Lane: https://www.flickr.com/photos/140616380@N03/37865693284/. Which also raises the question,  why say micro-buffet on one side and buffet on the other, unless it the counter side was also updated at some point?

 

Here are some updates/additions for the spreadsheet. The ones in parenthesis are just there to see if any patterns emerge.

9000 and 9001: there is no evidence of them having had white blanking plates, only the windows painted grey
9002: "MICRO-BUFFET" in red on white - https://www.flickr.com/photos/bystuart/53131406337/ (without the non-smoking sign above - some like 9007 did have it, something else worth mentioning on the spreadsheet?)

9003: "Buffet" in white on black - https://www.flickr.com/photos/81974239@N08/35985700766/

(9004 unknown)

(9005: "MICRO-BUFFET" in red on white)

(9006 unknown)
(9007 "BUFFET" in red on white)

9008: "MICRO-BUFFET" in red on white - https://www.flickr.com/photos/81974239@N08/34144239133/ - it looks like it still has the non-smoking sign (this also looks like 9008 where it can be seen better: https://www.flickr.com/photos/sydpix/5606917646/)

(9009 unknown)

9010: "Buffet" in white on black - https://www.flickr.com/photos/53166167@N06/26150947871/ - assuming this preservation image represents what it had in service

9011: "Buffet" in white on black - https://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/8418963807/

(9012 unknown)

(9013 unknown)

(9014 unknown)
(9015 "MICRO-BUFFET" in red on white)
(9016 "Buffet" in white on black)

9017: "Buffet" in white on black - https://www.flickr.com/photos/127526726@N06/50574218336/

 

If we accept the clues that 9015 originally had "Buffet" in white on black, then there is a possibility that the design had standardised from 9010 (or 9009) onwards to that style.
What if the 9015 white board came from 9003? the two could have had them switched during repairs. That would group all the white windows together 9002 - 9008 or 9009.

 

[young37215]

Spreasheet further updated following SC55015's observations and re-attached. There are still a number of blanks but given that this all relates to 40 years ago, I suspect that we will never get to 100%. 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 1 by young37215
Updated spreadsheet now further down the thread

[young37215]

I want to fit Commonwealth bogies to a Hornby BSO and convert it to a BSOT. Spare Commonwealth bogies appear similar to hens teeth, despite several months of searching I have not found any. Today I see that Hattons are selling a Hornby (R4974) Commonwealth fitted RB for £11. I dont think the bogies will swap/fit with those on the BSOT but I thought I would check just to be sure.   

[Derek T]

Replica Railways in Swindon do new Commonwealth bogies they are only £1.95 + p&p.

 

http://www.replicarailways.co.uk/mainsep1/menuaccess

 

They fit replica and mainline. Worth a punt for a couple of quid.

[young37215]

 

I finally managed to get 2 sets of suitable Hornby Commonwealth bogies from Ebay after 6 months of searching albeit rather expensively at £20 a set. These clip easily on to the chassis and after adjusting the back to backs, seem to run smoothly. Running quality is critical for me and was the main reason for my determination to get Hornby bogies. 

 

Now I can focus on creating additional BSOT's, I plan numbers 9005 and 9003 which were early SCR arrivals. First up will be 9005 where a 1983 picture of one side of 9005 is below. The only picture I can find for the opposite side is an early view with the old BSO number E9373 which can be seen at the Facebook link at the bottom of the post. Ideally I would like a better picture of both sides to determine where the red stripe above the windows should go and the Buffet signage that was applied to the window on the side opposite the counter. I cannot find any pictures on Flickr, does anyone have any suggestions as to where I might find pictures for 9005 and 9003? 

 

 

https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=10230917969868684

 

 

[young37215]

With a modest amount of effort WHL4 has a 4th BSOT with SC9005 now available for service. I went for the cheap and cheerful, time saving approach again by not doing the internal work to create the buffet counter and standing area which saves a few hours work. Only 1 of my 4 BSOT's has been treated with the full conversion, whilst I plan to do the full conversion over time, having run the BSOT fleet for several months I have not noticed the difference. Weathering and the red stripe designating the buffet area are outstanding, otherwise the coach is complete. 

 

I'll repeat my previous observations that the addition of 20 g of lead (10g at each end over the bogies) to bring the weight up to similar to the Bachmann Mk1's makes the coach feel more robust and easing the back to back on the factory produced tight wheel sets can only help improve running. Having made these adjustments to my 3 existing BSOT conversions the improvment in running is noticeable, I do not recall a BSOT derailing since they have been updated when previously they were prone to doing so on the entry and exit small radius pointwork of the main fiddle yard.

 

Renumbered coach and window covering added. 

 

 

Guards periscopes cut away, a layer of roof dirt weathering will cover the scratches

 

 

End steps removed and painted over. I'll leave the Hornby molded hand rail and pipework

 

 

Ready for service, I'll swap this with a BSK into one of the Mallaig rakes 

Edited February 1 by young37215

[young37215]

I have updated the BSOT spreadsheet and added a column describing the length of the red stripe above the windows used to designate the coach as being a buffet. There are several variations on the length of the red stripe which people may wish to factor in to their conversions. I have only identified a handful of red stripes, if anyone can add detail to go on the list I am happy to update it. 

 

 

BSOT summary.xls

[young37215]

 

Whilst researching for my last BSOT conversion, I came across a July 1986 picture of a 37/4 with BSOT 9007. This is the first steam heat only Mk1 BSOT that I have seen behind an ETH only loco. Being July a lack of train heating should not have been a problem but it does show that the steam heat coaches were still utilised in the ETH era. 

 

 

[young37215]

A couple of posts ago I  showed a picture of SC9005 in largely pristine condition. Following an airbrushing sesssion here are a couple of pictures of my latest and final BSOT conversions 9011 and 9005 with weathering applied. Both have had the original Mk1 bogies swapped for Commonwealths and the addition of Railmatch enamel roof dirt and frame dirt makes a big difference in turning the 'out of the box' condition into a what looks like a well used coach. It is a simple enough process and well worth the effort in my opinion.

 

The transfers have not been sealed as yet, I'll wait for the enamel paint to harden first before applying a matt varnish and the internal work of replacing the seating bay with a counter remains outstanding.  

 

 

 

 

Edited March 11 by young37215