12vDC to 16vAC board

[johna]

I know that you can buy a circuit board that converts  16vAC or 12vDC but can you get one going the other way.

 

Gaugemaster sell a plugged transformer with a small circuit board that can be used either way but not sure if then sell it separately.

 

Thanks

Johna

[TheQ]

https://m.banggood.com/500W-DC-12V-16V-To-AC-18V-0-220V-380V-DC-To-AC-Inverter-Boost-Step-Up-Board-Converter-Transformer-p-1253630.html?akmClientCountry=GB&rmmds=search

[kevinlms]

2 hours ago, TheQ said:

https://m.banggood.com/500W-DC-12V-16V-To-AC-18V-0-220V-380V-DC-To-AC-Inverter-Boost-Step-Up-Board-Converter-Transformer-p-1253630.html?akmClientCountry=GB&rmmds=search

Did you read the comments and questions?

 

Sounds dodgy to me!

[TheQ]

 The point is you can easily get an inverter to produce AC from DC,  reading the comments those who are complaining have no idea of electricity and are over loading the inverter.

  For instance the  laptop PSUs they are talking of often put out 3 amps or more,  this unit at most is about 2. A fan may have a low average current but the start up current is much higher. 

This is only a small cheap inverter,   16-18VAC, you don't have to use the 220vac output.  it should be perfectly adequate to power many 16VAC devices on a model railway. 

Chinese units almost always quote peak power not average,  when choosing a inverter it always pays to over specify the wattage.. 

 

Edited October 6, 2019 by TheQ

[kevinlms]

6 minutes ago, TheQ said:

67 reviews giving a 5 * what's the problem? 

 

Well I found these, amongst others. I don't speak German, but Kaputt isn't good - the last one!

 

sandeepdhiman34
2019-08-28 13:27:54
I have purchased this product but it not taking a single set top box load. Then how it can take the load of laptop

subbujews
2019-08-20 03:42:30
Don't buy waste of money.it is not working

subbujews
2019-08-20 03:41:47
Waste of money and time fraudlant practice.not working heavy heat.waste of money.dont buy anything in this website

 

Customer
2018-08-29 01:16:08

not working while 18 volt dc connected. does it works on ac 18 volts or dc 18 volts.

6 0

steaven
2018-08-07 08:59:38

In sleep mode there is a consumption of about 200 mAh, but none of the voltages at the transformer outputs.

1 3

outskirts
2018-03-01 09:00:59

The one I got started smoking shortly after connecting a 60 watt rated 220v thing... It did power up the unit for a bit, but then the board just destroyed itself, eventually even shorting the DC input - yikes - that would've been super bad while on the road in traffic. ..

0 0

Kong Hok Leng
2018-10-04 05:13:55

I got the product today but it is not working. I am really disappointed and I want to refund my money back

2 1

Florek
2018-10-02 11:06:41

Board dont work, after connecting to DC 12V nothing happens , led dont light, and i dont get any output voltages.

2 3

Customer
2018-09-12 08:03:57

This product not wroking

1 0

habalah
2018-04-23 03:51:16

Nicht zu empfehlen wäre nach knapp einer Woche kaputt

[dhjgreen]

"Description:

1. The product should be broad, products with high energy efficiency, long life, low power consumption, easy to use security, energy saving and durable. it is wild, night camp, the night market traders, driving home emergency power of a good helper.
 
2. Can be used as Modified sine wave, single silicon machine, the first stage booster inverter circuit tetrasilicic machine. DIY enthusiasts for electronic production, maintenance substitution, control cabinet manufacturers supporting products and so on.
 
3. You can use electrical appliances: 0.1-500W lamps, non-inductive household appliances,small electric cookers, (Note: Support for all “electronic products") such as "energy-saving lamps Soldering switching power supply satellite TV receivers lamp LED lamp LED energy saving lamps fluorescent DVD machine VCD machine EVD machine LCD TV color TV flat screen TV laptop computer various computer monitors charger for all electronic products and so on.
 
Specifications:

Power: 500W
Input: DC 12V
Output: AC 0-220V-380V and AC 18V
Static load current: about 0.35A
Output frequency waveforms: about 20KHZ, high frequency square wave"

 

500 Watts, really! 

[Crosland]

5 hours ago, TheQ said:

 The point is you can easily get an inverter to produce AC from DC,  reading the comments those who are complaining have no idea of electricity and are over loading the inverter.

  For instance the  laptop PSUs they are talking of often put out 3 amps or more,  this unit at most is about 2. A fan may have a low average current but the start up current is much higher. 

This is only a small cheap inverter,   16-18VAC, you don't have to use the 220vac output.  it should be perfectly adequate to power many 16VAC devices on a model railway. 

Chinese units almost always quote peak power not average,  when choosing a inverter it always pays to over specify the wattage.. 

 

 

It's all about power and efficiency. A 19V 3 A laptop PSU is way less than 500W and will take only a few hundred milliAmps at 240V. If the unit can take, say 1A on its DC input, and actually works, then it would be perfectly reasonable to expect it to power a laptop charger.

 

I wouldn't buy one myself  

 

Edited October 6, 2019 by Crosland

[RobjUK]

To be blunt, there is not a cat in hells chance that the board in that link can give 500W output.

 

That needs around 50 Amps input at 12V and the PCB tracks are nothing like big enough to handle that level of current.

 

It may manage 100W... It's also not a sine wave and only really good for devices with switched mode power supplies, where the AC just goes straight in to a rectifier.

 

You can get decent quality 12V to 240V inverters relatively cheaply in the UK, from such as Amazon or even Halfords - use one of those plus a normal transformer to step it back down to 18V; not as efficient as a single unit could be, but functional and reliable!

 

Edit - just spotted the frequency if the banggood unit, 20KHz.

I'd not risk connecting that to anything - it would be putting significant power through any input noise filtering components and it's high enough to cause problems with power rectifiers intended for 50/60Hz use; most are not "fast recovery" and will try to pass significant current spikes with a square wave at 20KHz.

 

Edited October 7, 2019 by RobjUK
typo

[sharris]

4 hours ago, RobjUK said:

 

 

Quote

Edit - just spotted the frequency if the banggood unit, 20KHz.

 

 

That would make it unsuitable for model railway use anyway. Anything that *needs* ac in the model railway world is usually using the 50/60Hz mains frequency as a timebase for pulse width modulation or feedback sampling at the zero crossing point. If you shift the supply frequency considerably (in this case by 400 times) timing components in your controller are going to be way off. Some PWM circuits work with a comparator that compares a control setting with the sinusoid waveform and switches on when they match, and off when it returns to zero - thyristor control - if your supply signal is no longer sinusoidal it is unlikely to work.

 

A switching frequency of 20kHz will also be annoying to anyone with relatively young ears (and pets!) as the converter will probably have a high pitched whistle.

 

Edited October 7, 2019 by sharris

[Pete the Elaner]

17 hours ago, johna said:

I know that you can buy a circuit board that converts  16vAC or 12vDC but can you get one going the other way.

 

Gaugemaster sell a plugged transformer with a small circuit board that can be used either way but not sure if then sell it separately.

 

Thanks

Johna

It is easier to rectify AC to DC than it is to invert DC to AC.

I suspect Gaugemaster's product transforms mains AC to the correct voltage then has a rectifier, giving you the choice of using the rectified or un-rectified output.

 

An inverter is useful when you start with a DC source such as a battery but, since I assume your source is mains, I would prefer not to rectify it in the first place.

[Phil S]

If your '16Vac' requirement is similar to ours; this approach may be of interest.

 

We have a Carousel/Gallopers/Roundabout from Faller which uses a synchronous AC motor (50-60 Hz) circa 12-16Vac .     This is now the ONLY device REQUIRING a 50-60Hz AC supply....

 

As most Veismmann e-motion figures etc can be run from DC ( as well as AC ) we are removing the 16Vac bus from our portable layout... It was originally used to power Lenz LS150 accessory decoders - but these have all been replaced by Train-Tech CDU decoders  which run from the DCC bus.

 

There are several ready-made modules available which use the 8038 waveform generator IC ... This can be set to around the required frequency, and a sine wave output selected.  The board output is probably designed to feed into something over 600 -1000 ohms ( audio input ... But may be okay as low as 75 - 50 ohms ( RF coax ?? )

Similarly cheap 12Vdc powered Audio Amplifiers are available with 2-3W output ... Into lower impedances

( loudspeakers ) .... But the Carousel motor should hopefully be similar.

 

This should also offer, within a limited range, the possibility of slowing the roundabout by trying say 40Hz.

 

I have the parts in stock for this... But we are still in the process of setting the whole layout up in its new home in the garage, and swapping that part over is a few weeks away.    ( If it doesn't work ... The modules have other uses available )

 

perhaps on on the inverter module suggested .... It should read 500mW ??? ( I've not yet followed that link ). And similarly the 20kHz is a reference to the chopping/ conversion frequency used to reconstruct the 50/60Hz sine wave output ???

Edited October 7, 2019 by Phil S
Added 20kHz comment

[RobjUK]

The application for the power is very relevant!

 

With the mention of the Gaugemaster transformer, I was guessing it was for something like an AC loco controller.

 

If it is actually for a small motor such as a synchronous type, we have some modules we produced specifically for that job; we designed them to run a small AC only pump motor in a piece of 12V DC powered equipment.

 

If that's what is needed, I should be able to sort one out. The output is actually at about 49Hz due to the resonator used, but that's near enough for most 50Hz stuff other than clocks..

 

[sharris]

4 hours ago, Phil S said:

There are several ready-made modules available which use the 8038 waveform generator IC ... This can be set to around the required frequency, and a sine wave output selected... 

Similarly cheap 12Vdc powered Audio Amplifiers are available with 2-3W output ... Into lower impedances

...

perhaps on on the inverter module suggested .... It should read 500mW ??? ( I've not yet followed that link ). And similarly the 20kHz is a reference to the chopping/ conversion frequency used to reconstruct the 50/60Hz sine wave output ???

 

The audio amp might be suitable in some circumstances, such as small ac motors,  but rather than giving 16V ac (presumably 16V rms) which means a swing of +22.6V to -22.6V, a peak-to-peak of about 45V, a 12V supplied amp will most likely give a maximum swing of about 10V or so (the power rails minus a couple of transistor junctions)

 

It might be that something got lost in translation when they wrote the specs page for the banggood dc-ac converter, and 20kHz, as you say, is a likely switching frequency, but if you want a 50/60Hz sinusoidal output from it, I don't see anything in the pictures of the circuit that would suggest one is available. 

[Phil S]

If the intent is to run an AC locomotive (H0) the answer may be simpler still...

 

IF MARKLIN then, depending on its age, it may have either an ac coil-based electromagnet, or later models have a high efficiency permanent magnet motor.   Replacement magnet assemblies ( 2 sizes for H0 ... 18mm or 19mm diamter windings approx, and a larger one for gauge 1 ) are economically  available 'off the shelf' from ESU, OR a full conversion kit from Marklin which inludes a new 5-pole winding ( replacing the 3-pole original, and 2 new carbon brushes and brusholder/faceplate )  A multistandard decoder may be included too - sound or silent = price varies!!.

Discard the solenoid direction changeover unit, and fit your preferred decoder or run dc analogue. aka Hornby Dublo 3-rail.   [Wheels can be insulated too !  I use a slice of plastic straw to insulate the side without attached gears]

 

If a Roco 'ac' loco - then it is really a dc loco/motor with centre pickup .... simply remove the centre pickup from the 'trailing'/unpowered bogie, and move 2 of the wheel pickup wires to the other side of the pcb ... ie 2 each side, 1 in each corner.  If decoder is 'old' eg a Lenz900, simply use a new Lenz decoder or go analogue dc.   Note that the dc-model's drive to the 2nd bogie is omitted to give space for the centre pickup. Wheels may also be coarser and benefit from a back to back tweak.

 

If a modern ESU loco ... simply switch to 2 rail and remove the centre pickup.. they are dual standard,

with multiprotocol decoders.

 

PS- re the audio amp ... I think the motor works okay on 12V... possibly less, but a dc dc converter for the amp was an option   ... i was planning using a class d amp... not worried about too much distortion, but  RobjUK's pump board looks like an ideal 1 board solution for my Faller Fairground Application ( or some of their windmills and level crossings all using / used synchronous ac motors )

Edited October 7, 2019 by Phil S
added obs re my faller motor project

[johna]

Thanks everyone for the input to my questions. 

 

I want to use the transformer from the gaugemaster combi controller to power the point motors and shuttle timer and was hoping a simple circuit board was available. Gaugemaster sell one with their wall transformer but you can't buy them separately.

 

Johna

[Clive Mortimore]

38 minutes ago, johna said:

Thanks everyone for the input to my questions. 

 

I want to use the transformer from the gaugemaster combi controller to power the point motors and shuttle timer and was hoping a simple circuit board was available. Gaugemaster sell one with their wall transformer but you can't buy them separately.

 

Johna

Hi Johna

 

The Combi has two sets of outputs, one is 12 V Dc controlled for the track and locos and the other is 16 V AC for accessories , like point motors and Shuttle timers. http://www.gaugemaster.com/item_details.asp?code=GMC-COMBI

 

 

[johna]

18 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Hi Johna

 

The Combi has two sets of outputs, one is 12 V Dc controlled for the track and locos and the other is 16 V AC for accessories , like point motors and Shuttle timers. http://www.gaugemaster.com/item_details.asp?code=GMC-COMBI

 

 

Clive ,

 

It's not the Combi. Its the wee circuit board with this transformer was wanting to buy unfortunately it's not available separately

Johna

[sharris]

That wee circuit board appears to contain an LED (and presumably a resistor that we can't see), a bridge rectifier and a capacitor - my guess, without seeing the paths of the copper tracks on the reverse, is that two of the screw-terminals are simply a pass-through from the input jack, and are the AC output (the circuit only makes sense if the transformer block has an AC output), while the other two are a full-wave rectified unsmoothed 'DC' (I use quotes because it's not true DC, it will return to 0V every 100th of a second) - the capacitor isn't large enough for any smoothing so I presume it's for rudimentary RF filtering. 

 

Assuming you already have the transformer, it should be possible to knock up the wee board, or something that can do the same job, for not that many pence. 

 

 

[johna]

I do have the transformer but don't have the knowledge or skill to build the board so that's why I asked if there was something you could but of the shelf so to speak.

 

Thanks

Johna

[Phil S]

Are not many if not most Point CDUs able to work off a dc input ( probably ac as well )  and therefore I am wondering if there really is a requirement for a low voltage ac supply for the op's purpose?

The Super Shuttle unit appears to use the 16vac input purely for internal power ... the track 12vDC is separate.

 

With energy efficiency in mind, wouldn't a suitable SMPS be better  for the purpose?

 

I'm also surprised that Gaugemaster is still permitted to sell a traditional transformer for model railway use ... since its new and not a 'spare part'  ... as all these are supposed to be more energy /efficient smps nowadays   .... perhaps that is the true reason for having the 16Vac output as part of it ??

 

(For comparison, the Roco Multimaus's Amplifier (Power) Module used to say 16Vac input, but accepted dc  ... and they later changed the labelling to match....and an SMPS with 18V dc output replaced the 16Vac transformer.

Internally, the power input was followed by a full wave rectifier of 6A rating)

 

IN THE PHOTO of the circuit  board, the item suggested to be a capacitor is possibly a protective PTC surge protector?????  (suggested by the diagonal line across the body   ... unusual for a ceramic cap but more common on surge protection??

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

9

Edited October 7, 2019 by Phil S
tryping

[melmerby]

8 minutes ago, johna said:

I do have the transformer but don't have the knowledge or skill to build the board so that's why I asked if there was something you could but of the shelf so to speak.

 

Thanks

Johna

Are you trying to convert AC to DC or DC to AC?

If you want DC from AC something like this (ignore the "regulated" twaddle - it isn't)

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33016492467.html?algo_pvid=1d96201e-be1b-42d7-9e91-4ed409d3b849&algo_expid=1d96201e-be1b-42d7-9e91-4ed409d3b849-0&btsid=c7287400-b61a-4627-b71b-f7d9de00db05&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_,searchweb201603_53

 

Edited October 7, 2019 by melmerby

[sharris]

9 minutes ago, Phil S said:

The Super Shuttle unit appears to use the 16vac input purely for internal power ... the track 12vDC is separate.

 

 

Johna posted pictures of the internals of a Shuttle timer in another thread - the input power goes through a bridge rectifier with some smoothing afterwards - it will also work as well on an auxilliary DC supply as on AC (the Shuttle is basically a 555 in astable mode switching a relay to reverse track polarity).

 

 

[sharris]

1 hour ago, Phil S said:

I'm also surprised that Gaugemaster is still permitted to sell a traditional transformer for model railway use ...

 

If you really want, for those who are competent in wiring these things up and enclosing them safely, Gaugemaster will sell you a raw, uncased transformer

 

http://www.gaugemaster.com/item_details.asp?code=GMC-T1DC&style=&strType=&Mcode=Gaugemaster+GMC-T1DC (they have other voltage/current versions too)

 

Model railway transformers are generally in the sub 50VA range, and their efficiency is probably at least 70%. While a switched mode power supply is more efficient, their principle benefit for us would be a lighter and smaller unit than a traditional transformer (compare the size and weight of a 500VA PC power supply with an iron cored 500VA transformer!), their deficit over a traditional transformer is the loss of a low voltage ac output for those diminishing model railway situations that actually need it. 

 

The surge protector makes sense.

 

... but now we're drifting off topic. 

 

Edited October 7, 2019 by sharris

[John ks]

If you just want to power your timer module with the plugpack then the following pic should help, provided that the voltage of the plugpack is suitable.

If you want AC for something else then the plugpack should supply it without any other boards.(Read the spec on the plugpack, it should show the output Voltage , Current and  if it is AC or DC)

The timer should work on either AC or DC ( I may be repeating previous posters)

 

 

My best guess (with info gained from previous posters) for the small board connections is also shown in the pic.

 

John

[WIMorrison]

why not just get one of these https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1000ma-16v-AC-AC-AC-Output-Mains-Power-Adaptor-Supply-Charger-1a-16w-16va/123912651283?hash=item1cd9c50213:g:iy8AAOSwoZ9dhJ3q

 

All the power you need, simple and cheap 

 

There are others available for less (and more) money.