Reversing Beeching ???

[JN]

6 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

What has the last 1/2 page got to do with re-opening closed railways?

The question posed by the article, in my view, is 'To what extent was Brexit caused by the Beeching report?' This means I would have to consider other possible motivations. Typing helps me to 'think out loud'. I don't mind talking about the EU either.

[JN]

On 07/06/2021 at 21:22, whart57 said:

 

You are right, borders exist to mark where one jurisdiction ends and another begins. But that can be done without placing any restriction on the movement of people. In the USA for example you can cross state lines without noticing and there is certainly no border control, but if you cross from an "open carry" state to one that doesn't permit that then make sure your gun is packed away. Likewise the borders are open in the Schengen zone, but if you drive from Bruges to Sluis, you start off under Belgian law and a couple of miles out from Sluis you are under Dutch law. Sluis has a number of shops you'd not expect to find in a small conservative country town as a result.

 

The EU has internal borders, people accept those borders exist and they do so because they are loose, Violence in Northern Ireland waned when the border was opened and people in NI could choose for themselves whether they wanted to be Irish or British. The threat of violence returning is because Brexit is tightening borders again. Likewise Spain joining France in the EU meant the Basque country was de facto re-united as the border down the middle was opened. The post-Franco devolution of powers from Madrid also helped of course.

 

Another snippet from the history of passports - and this does have a railway connection. Before 1914 the possession of a first class ticket on the SECR Boat Train from Dover or Folkestone was enough to get you in the country. A second or third class passenger needed a passport.

 

Other railway-related connections. In most of the Netherlands the steam tram lines that weren't standard gauge were mostly Cape gauge, 3'6" or 1067mm. Except in Dutch Flanders where metre gauge was the norm. Why? Because the Belgians had standardised on metre gauge and the lines were operated as cross border lines. The city tram of Enschede ran across the border to Gronau in Germany. Before 1914 without any border controls.

 

As far as West European borders are concerned the period from 1914 to 1957 was an aberration. That needs to be understood.

 

 

"Likewise the borders are open in the Schengen zone, but if you drive from Bruges to Sluis, you start off under Belgian law and a couple of miles out from Sluis you are under Dutch law. Sluis has a number of shops you'd not expect to find in a small conservative country town as a result."
I'm not sure what this has to do with the question of the thread. However, I suppose that would buttress the argument for Brexit if you think as a consequence that the UK is different to the continental countries and therefore should leave the EU. If that is your point of view its hard to see how the Beeching Report not happening would have convinced people to change their vote from leave to remain given, as I've said, that the fundamental reason for there being a Brexit campaign (whether in 1975 or 2016) is to do with (at least for some - Tony Been, Michael Foot and others might have agreed with Enoch Powell in their conclusions, but had different reasons for reaching that same conclusion) a valuing of the different legal and political traditions which not only exist in the EU, but throughout Europe too.

 

I don't know what you mean by 'Sluis has a number of shops you'd not expect to find in a small conservative country town as a result' - what shops should anyone expect to find in a 'small conservative country town'? Perhaps 'conservative' in Holland means something less 'conservative' in a more conservative country like Belgium. Labels like left-wing, right-wing, progressive, reactionary, Conservative, Liberal, Socialist are more to do with either political parties or how a person's politics generally relates to the French Revolution rather than a place's ideology (a place can't have an ideology because a place isn't a sentient living creature with ideas).

 

"The EU has internal borders, people accept those borders exist and they do so because they are loose, Violence in Northern Ireland waned when the border was opened and people in NI could choose for themselves whether they wanted to be Irish or British. The threat of violence returning is because Brexit is tightening borders again. Likewise Spain joining France in the EU meant the Basque country was de facto re-united as the border down the middle was opened. The post-Franco devolution of powers from Madrid also helped of course."
Well, I've discussed the Northern Ireland case specifically. I'm not sure if the rest is true and I can see the case for it being true and not true. I just haven't studied Spanish and ETA history in enough detail to pose even a reasonable case for the reason(s) ETA laid down their arms. I'm not sure how this point about the violence in Northern Ireland or Spain relates to Brexit being caused or not caused by the Beeching cuts.

 

"Another snippet from the history of passports - and this does have a railway connection. Before 1914 the possession of a first class ticket on the SECR Boat Train from Dover or Folkestone was enough to get you in the country. A second or third class passenger needed a passport."
I don't know what your point is, or rather, I'm not sure how this point relates to Brexit being caused or not caused by the Beeching cuts.

 

"Other railway-related connections. In most of the Netherlands the steam tram lines that weren't standard gauge were mostly Cape gauge, 3'6" or 1067mm. Except in Dutch Flanders where metre gauge was the norm. Why? Because the Belgians had standardised on metre gauge and the lines were operated as cross border lines. The city tram of Enschede ran across the border to Gronau in Germany. Before 1914 without any border controls."
I don't know what your point is, or rather, I'm not sure how this point relates to Brexit being caused or not caused by the Beeching cuts. 

 

"As far as West European borders are concerned the period from 1914 to 1957 was an aberration. That needs to be understood."
I've studied history and have a Master's degree in the subject, so I'm aware that history is of both change and continuity. Perhaps you're right about 'As far as West European (what about Eastern Europe?) borders are concerned the period from 1914 to 1957 was an aberration'. We'll know what is and what isn't an aberration at 'the end'. The UK isn't an aberration to itself, but is in comparison to England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales. Northern Ireland is an aberration of the UK (with it being created in 1922 from the six counties of Ulster after the independence of the non-Ulster counties). The UK's membership of the EU could be an aberration, but there's a possibility that the UK could rejoin the EU which might make Brexit an aberration. I don't think Marx was right about history being inevitable and I think that's possibly the reason the Soviet Union became a dogmatic and totalitarian state (the question that couldn't be asked is 'What if history isn't inevitable?'). I'm not sure how this point about aberrations relates to Brexit being caused or not caused by the Beeching cuts.

Edited June 9, 2021 by JN
Paragraph clarity editing.

[JN]

On 08/06/2021 at 07:39, whart57 said:

EU membership underpinned the Good Friday Agreement, as it meant NI citizens who distrusted the British state could take out Irish citizenship and not have anything to do with the British state.

 

The EU's loose borders and freedom of movement has defused another, more serious, border issue. World War Two was caused by borders. The Treaties of 1919 that ended WW1 created new states in Eastern Europe, but as a result millions of Germans ended up as minorities in these states. That creates resentment - having to learn a new language to fill in your tax form does that sort of thing - which Hitler exploited. First the Sudeten-germans in Czechoslovakia, which was settled by the capitulation at Munich, and then the issue of Danzig and the "Polish corridor". After the war the Poles and Czechs expelled all Germans, the Polish border with Germany was moved West dozens of miles. When the Berlin Wall fell and the Soviet hold over Eastern Europe was broken the issue of Germans returning to their former homes resurfaced. Now Poland and the Czech Republic are EU members any German who wishes to return to the city or village of their grandparents can. Few do, but that is not the point, the fact they can removes the issue as one to cause division.

"EU membership underpinned the Good Friday Agreement, as it meant NI citizens who distrusted the British state could take out Irish citizenship and not have anything to do with the British state."
I was actually meaning that the EU helped with the negociations between the UK Government, the Irish government and both the Loyalist and Nationalist representatives. The meaning of the sentence is a bit cloudy. Whether someone is an Irish citizen or they have to deal with the UK government/state on some level. Its just not true to say being a citizen of a different country (lets say Ireland) means you don't have to deal with country (lets say the UK). For a start, you still have to observe its laws. If you didn't the UK State would then have the absolute legitimacy to use its monopoly of violence to stop you doing what the laws define as illegal (I'm not aware of any European state having any interest in stopping anyone from doing anything which is legal in/with its territory). That Irish people could live and work in the UK was true in 1997 as in 1999.

Your last point I could talk about, but again, this is more European history. I understand what you're trying to say, but I might argue something different. The question doesn't ask about whether the EU is bad or good for Europe. The question doesn't even ask whether Brexit was bad or good for the UK (and/or Europe if you want to ask that question). However, the question does ask about Brexit being caused by the Beeching cuts. You almost got me in to discussing about the EU being a bad or good thing, but I decided to make my response a little kinder than 'so what?' (it took me a little while to find reasonable words). There are lots of forums in which we can talk about Brexit/EU membership. We can talk about how railways and railway modelling has been affected/influenced (or unaffected/not influenced) by the EU, but I'm not sure we can really talk about EU membership in the abstract. When you say "Now Poland and the Czech Republic are EU members any German who wishes to return to the city or village of their grandparents can. Few do, but that is not the point, the fact they can removes the issue as one to cause division" you're talking about the morality of borders. I will also make the point that this is not the case as citizenship can be claimed by lineage, certainly in some cases, but that is not to do with the EU. Maybe it helps where that law in the EU doesn't already exist, but that it soley is the case even for the EU is just not so. Anyway, I thought people. Its certainly the case in the UK when we were in both and not in the EU.

[Northmoor]

Coming back to the Guardian article, I assume we can summarise its hypothesis as follows:

1. The Beeching Report contributed to a lot of towns feeling isolated from the economic development in the rest of the country.
2. Those isolated towns voted disproportionately to Leave the EU.
3. Brexit is Bad.
4. The Beeching Report was published under a Tory Government.
5. Therefore, the Tories are to blame for Brexit (as they are for everything else The Guardian doesn't agree with).
6. Err...
7. That's it.

[TravisM]

Having spoken to a large number of Brexitter’s, a large percentage said if they could turn the clock back, they’d vote remain.  What this has to do with Beeching’s report, I’m at a loss because you can’t go back to as it was.

 

Beeching got blamed for a lot of lines that closed that weren’t in his report, the Waverley route is one but having actually read the report (believe me when I say it’s mind numbingly boring), he foresaw the way BR was heading.  The money wasted on untested diesel locomotives as well as building steam traction.  He advocated bulk freight workings with air brake stock, hence higher speeds, modern air conditioned stock, again air braked as well as wide spread electrification including re-wiring the Woodhead route when the DC became life expired to 25Kv AC.

 

I could go on and on but I’m tired and need to go to bed.

Edited June 9, 2021 by jools1959

[JN]

3 hours ago, Northmoor said:

Coming back to the Guardian article, I assume we can summarise its hypothesis as follows:

1. The Beeching Report contributed to a lot of towns feeling isolated from the economic development in the rest of the country.
2. Those isolated towns voted disproportionately to Leave the EU.
3. Brexit is Bad.
4. The Beeching Report was published under a Tory Government.
5. Therefore, the Tories are to blame for Brexit (as they are for everything else The Guardian doesn't agree with).
6. Err...
7. That's it.

I wasn't sure whether to 'agree' or 'like' because I both agree with and like. I like because of the reference to Private Eye which I liked.

[Michael Edge]

9 hours ago, jools1959 said:

 He advocated bulk freight workings with air brake stock, hence higher speeds, modern air conditioned stock, again air braked as well as wide spread electrification including re-wiring the Woodhead route when the DC became life expired to 25Kv AC.

 

 

The remaining parts of the Woodhead electrification have not been "re-wired" now, nearly all the wiring is still there with 25kv going through it - only the insulators needed changing.

[arran]

9 hours ago, jools1959 said:

Having spoken to a large number of Brexitter’s, a large percentage said if they could turn the clock back, they’d vote remain.  What this has to do with Beeching’s report, I’m at a loss because you can’t go back to as it was.

 

Beeching got blamed for a lot of lines that closed that weren’t in his report, the Waverley route is one but having actually read the report (believe me when I say it’s mind numbingly boring), he foresaw the way BR was heading.  The money wasted on untested diesel locomotives as well as building steam traction.  He advocated bulk freight workings with air brake stock, hence higher speeds, modern air conditioned stock, again air braked as well as wide spread electrification including re-wiring the Woodhead route when the DC became life expired to 25Kv AC.

 

I could go on and on but I’m tired and need to go to bed.

Are you sure about the Waverley line ? i think he Did propose its closure .

 

Regards Arran

[caradoc]

9 hours ago, jools1959 said:

Having spoken to a large number of Brexitter’s, a large percentage said if they could turn the clock back, they’d vote remain.

 

Whereas I, having voted Remain, would now seriously consider voting Leave, for a number of reasons, some of which have been discussed in this topic !

 

[Zomboid]

1 hour ago, Michael Edge said:

The remaining parts of the Woodhead electrification have not been "re-wired" now, nearly all the wiring is still there with 25kv going through it - only the insulators needed changing.

The substation equipment tends to have a shorter lifespan than the contact system, so that's probably what was life expired. DC OLE has such a huge cross section to the conductors that on a little branch line it'll be a long time before they're worn out. Though eventual renewal might be driven by other things - if it's fixed tension then that might be an issue.

[whart57]

3 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

The substation equipment tends to have a shorter lifespan than the contact system, so that's probably what was life expired. DC OLE has such a huge cross section to the conductors that on a little branch line it'll be a long time before they're worn out. Though eventual renewal might be driven by other things - if it's fixed tension then that might be an issue.

 

A few years ago I was pitching for business to electrical distribution companies - the people who get the volts from those big pylons down to your fusebox. I learned that we have a time bomb ticking there. There was major investment in the distribution grid in the 1970s and 80s to cope with the fact we started to used electricity for more than just lighting. Large chunks of the network hardware are forty years old or more yet the design life of most of it was 25-30 years.

[TravisM]

8 hours ago, arran said:

Are you sure about the Waverley line ? i think he Did propose its closure .

 

Regards Arran

 

I can't remember reading about the closure of the Waverley Route in his report, but as it was closed in 1969 under a labour government, sanctioned by Barbara Castle.

Edited June 10, 2021 by jools1959
Spelling

[Northmoor]

3 minutes ago, jools1959 said:

 

I can't remember reading about the closure of the Waverley Route in his report, but as it was closed in 1969 under a labour government, sanctioned by Barbara Castle.

Ditto the Midland Main Line through the Peak District, not mentioned in the 1963 report.

[arran]

22 minutes ago, jools1959 said:

 

I can't remember reading about the closure of the Waverley Route in his report, but as it was closed in 1969 under a labour government, sanctioned by Barbara Castle.

The Beeching report was received with dismay in the Borders, as although many were not surprised to see the Langholm branch slated for closure, the loss of the whole Waverley line came as a shock, particularly as even more rural-based routes such as the West Highland Line were not mentioned in the document.[105] The economic and social implications of the proposed closure were of concern to a number of Government ministries, including the Scottish Office which, in April 1964, requested the Minister of Transport to ask Beeching to postpone publication of closure notices for the Waverley Route.[102] The Scottish Economic Planning Council also asked the Minister to hold fire on any proposals, due to the nature, size and importance of the region served by the line.[106] In the 1964 general election, the Unionist Party Member of Parliament for Roxburgh, Selkirk and Peebles, Charles Donaldson, whose constituency covered Hawick and who had voted for the Beeching report, saw his majority cut by the Liberal candidate, David Steel, who had opposed closure of the railway line.[106] Steel overturned the Conservative majority in a 1965 by-election; his opposition to the route's closure was one of the three main local issues of his campaign.[106]

 

[JN]

"It’s an old story: rich and poor competing for the same space, which is why I think Cornwall, looking for anything that looked like autonomy, voted for Brexit."

https://unherd.com/2021/06/the-prostitution-of-cornwall/?tl_inbound=1&tl_groups[0]=18743&tl_period_type=3&mc_cid=b9c3a4cf92&mc_eid=2335125c45

[JN]

The discussion is primarily about about the Labour Party, but Paul Embery does also talk about Brexit too.

[whart57]

Hmm, I think it would be better to take that over to Wheeltappers and a new thread

[JN]

4 hours ago, whart57 said:

Hmm, I think it would be better to take that over to Wheeltappers and a new thread

What do you mean by 'that'? What's Wheeltappers?

[Hobby]

It's a section of the forum for non railway related discussions which this seems to drifted into... 

[JN]

This is worth listening to for the reasons people in the UK voted to leave the EU (and the extent to which Beeching cuts had an impact - Matthew Goodwin doesn't mention the Beeching Report). Very interesting and I learnt some things. However, Goodwin also talks about party politics at the end.

[JN]

1 minute ago, Hobby said:

It's a section of the forum for non railway related discussions which this seems to drifted into... 

The question posed by the article, in my view, is 'To what extent was Brexit caused by the Beeching report?' This means I would have to consider other possible motivations. Typing helps me to 'think out loud' - I didn't think we were talking about whether or not Brexit, Beeching or the EU are a good ideas (even if we were, 'good' would be tied to a preferred outcome), but the extent to which railway cuts were a (or the, if there is a single) motivation for Brexit. If railway cuts are a reason then it would feed in to the 'ignored/left behind' argument which, according to Goodwin, seems to be more influenced by a view of Governments since 1964 rather than specifically about the railways. I accept we could tie the view of government to Beeching, but then we're debating causation and correlation. I've also mentioned the lack of support for Longbridge in 2000, the support for banks in 2008/9 and the lack of support for the Port Talbot steelworks in 2016 as specific examples. I can't remember any other examples, but that's not to say there aren't other examples.

[whart57]

The opening question was however about the likelihood of some of the Beeching-related closures being reversed and lines being re-opened. The Larry Elliott article was already veering off-topic, so developing that argument further takes us even further away from the core of the thread. I am not averse to political arguments or to ascribing political motivations to historical events, but I do think discussion boards have to retain a modicum of subject discipline. If they don't everything eventually becomes a slanging match on the issue du jour. Hence my suggestion of a fresh thread.

[Pandora]

The Beeching Report part 1: (free download)

 

https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/BRB_Beech001a.pdf

 

The Beeching Report part2  (maps) : (free download)

 

https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/BRB_Beech001b.pdf

 

Although almost every railway enthusiast has an opinion on Beeching, few seem to have studied the report first-hand!

 

Edited June 13, 2021 by Pandora

[adanapress]

Re Woodhead comment by Michael Edge last Thursday,  I had thought that the principal power flow from the grid  now went through the Woodhead tunnel bores (one or both/)  in an amazing ground level WATER COOLED set up with a narrow gauge railway alongside for maintainance purposes.   Or is Michael referring to another part of the Woodhead  track network?  There were odd 'extra bits',

some added much later than the original opening.  I passing, I travelled on the line during the first week, very fast as I recall.

[Michael Edge]

No, I was referring to the parts of the MSW electrification which are still in use - Manchester to Hadfield and Glossop. The tunnel is another argument in itself and the cables now run in the invert of the 1954 one after difficulties with the original single bores.