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'Genesis' 4 & 6 wheel coaches in OO Gauge - New Announcement


Hattons Dave
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In some ways the generic nature suits the fictional light railway use, certainly be a change from the too easily identifiable Ratio 4 wheelers. Do wonder if in time they may suffer the same problem though?

 

I'm wondering if (like the Ratio GWR 4 wheelers) we'll see them bashed into 009 bogie carriages?

 

 

 

 

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A very welcome announcement! It does appear that we're seeing more pre-grouping things recently, particularly LNWR, MR and GCR, so these are a logical progression of that.

It would be nice to see North Staffordshire Railway liveried versions of these coaches at some point; particularly now that a short rake of these have now been restored and put into service at Foxfield.

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6 minutes ago, Norton Wood said:

@Hattons Dave

 

Hi, with the Batch 2 GER coaches, are their thoughts about doing them in the LNER Scumbled Teak as you have for the current LNER versions? 

 

Thank you in advance. 

 

What would be the difference between freelance carriages in LNER teak and freelance carriages in ex-GER LNER faux teak?

 

In any case, my (limited) understanding is that such elderly pre-grouping carriages were not so treated by the LNER but got an all-over plain brown?

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3 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

What would be the difference between freelance carriages in LNER teak and freelance carriages in ex-GER LNER faux teak?

 

In any case, my (limited) understanding is that such elderly pre-grouping carriages were not so treated by the LNER but got an all-over plain brown?

 

As I understand the LNER all overpainted brown was known as Scumbled teak, simply as they just painted them brown and it was to attempt at matching the LNER Gresley Teak stock

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One livery that I'm surprised they haven't gone for is SDJR blue, which flew off the shelves in 0.

 

And, one they've done well to miss is Furness Rly, which didn't sell at all well in 0.

 

The sort of missing one, but maybe covered by the LNER, is soot-stained teakihs-brownish, with no ownership lettering, which could cover a multitude of sins, and would be ideal for the secondhand purchases of Light Railways.

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1 minute ago, Norton Wood said:

 

As I understand the LNER all overpainted brown was known as Scumbled teak, simply as they just painted them brown and it was to attempt at matching the LNER Gresley Teak stock

Scumbled teak, was painted on Steel & harboard coach's mainline stock the old per group stock just got brown

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4 minutes ago, Norton Wood said:

 

As I understand the LNER all overpainted brown was known as Scumbled teak, simply as they just painted them brown and it was to attempt at matching the LNER Gresley Teak stock

 

My apologies, I went back and checked the OP and note that the LNER versions are in overall brown. I don't think this was intended to simulate the varnished teak of GNR and LNER-built carriages, however, as "scumble" refers specifically to a technique used to imitate the grained effect. The brown was just plain brown. 

Edited by Compound2632
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2 minutes ago, mozzer models said:

Scumbled teak, was painted on Steel & harboard coach's mainline stock the old per group stock just got brown

 

1 minute ago, Compound2632 said:

 

My apologies, I went back and checked the OP and note that the LNER versions are in overall brown. I don't think this was intended to simulate the varnished teak of GNR and LNER-built carriages, however, as "scumble" refers specifically to a technique used to imitate the grained effect. The brown was just plain brown. 

 

Thank you both :)

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1 hour ago, phil gollin said:

.

 

Just in case people haven't seen this (it was on the Hattons Genesis Project Update page ;

 

"Batch 3 Information

 

We will be producing a third batch of coaches which will be available following on from the release of the first two batches but are not currently available to pre-order. Currently proposed liveries are:

 

North Eastern Railway

Caledonian Railway

Metropolitan Railway

SDJR

Longmoor Military Railway

Further BR Departmental Examples"

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/newsdetail.aspx?id=594

 

.

 

 

@Hattons Dave

will the Metropolitan coaches have the sharp crved door tops  as this is on all Met coaches & makes a coach look like a met coach

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30 minutes ago, Hattons Dave said:

 

Hi Stephen,

 

I've got some answers for you regarding the key dimensions.

 

4 wheel

Body length - 105.2mm

Body width (over body, not handles) - 31.9mm

Wheelbase - 60mm

 

6 wheel

Body length - 129.2mm

Body width (over body, not handles) - 31.9 mm

Wheelbase - 42mm centres

 

In regards to accepting 21mm wheelsets, it may well be possible but with the 6 wheelers especially it wouldn't give much room left to play with to negotiate curves.

 

I hope this helps.

 

That is helpful, thank you.

 

That gives us in effect 8' wide bodies, with 4 wheelers at approx 26', and 6 wheelers at approx 32', in length.

 

26' was, for instance, a standard length for Stroudley 4-wheelers. They were 8' across the body and had a w/b of 15'. The panel style is fairly generic, of the type that Stroudley used in the 1870s and which became more widespread later. 

 

You're almost bound, therefore, to achieve some degree of similarity to, say, Stroudley 4-compt. 1st and 5-compt. 3rd. Likewise to a 32' Billinton 2nd, for example, which happily has a 21' w/b.

 

However, there are still almost infinite possible variations - panel depths and window heights, widths, radius of roof, body height etc, etc, but with non-brake coaches, at least you are not going to get that much variation in the compartment spacings within these lengths. Brake coaches present even greater scope for variation.

 

Matching to exact prototypes will be a challenge, but, then, that's not the point; there will be numerous instance where these will appear representative. 

 

There will no doubt be degrees of suitability and degrees of modeller's acceptance.  While the generic style is at odds with distinctive panel styles like GER, GNR, SER and LNWR, for instance, you may get closer with, say, Midland 6-wheelers.  Generally a similar panel style and 8' wide bodies with the right w/b, though a foot shorter in the body.  Less happy would be attempts to pass these off as LSWR, for instance, except in the most general way, but it is inevitable that there will be both winners and losers in relating these to actual vehicles, and for many, that just won't be the point.  

 

The inability to match these coaches with a given prototype does not, in my view, lessen their general utility. They are not purporting to be prototype specific, so each modeller can take what he, she or they wants from the range.  

 

I do agree with those who point out that a luggage brake is pretty essential for the period.  

 

 

 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, mozzer models said:

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/profile/28458-hattons-dave/ will the Metropolitan coaches have the sharp crved door tops  as this is on all Met coaches & makes a coach look like a met coach

 

 

I think it's already established that these are freelance carriages decorated in the liveries of pre-grouping companies, with no attempt to represent the distinctive variations in panelling style from the round-cornered lower, waist, light and eves panel characteristic of the Great Western, Midland, North Eastern, Caledonian, Cambrian, Furness and others. One glace at the carriages in LNWR or Great Northern livery should be enough to make Hattons' philosophy clear!

 

EDIT: my posts keep crossing with others saying similar things so it's evidently time I went for my afternoon walk then got down to building some pre-Grouping carriages.

Edited by Compound2632
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Just now, Compound2632 said:

 

I think it's already established that these are freelance carriages decorated in the liveries of pre-grouping companies, with no attempt to represent the distinctive variations in panelling style from the round-cornered lower, waist, light and eves panel characteristic of the Great Western, Midland, North Eastern, Caledonian, Cambrian, Furness and others. One glace at the carriages in LNWR or Great Northern livery should be enough to make Hattons' philosophy clear!

But the door top is the only thing that makes a met coach look like a met coach so without them it will just SHOUT WRONG

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Just now, mozzer models said:

But the door top is the only thing that makes a met coach look like a met coach so without them it will just SHOUT WRONG

 

Not as loudly as it's shouting on those plum-and-spilt milk carriages...

 

Walk. Go for that walk. Walk away now....

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Just to clarify,  the L&SWR examples will be in brown and salmon pink.....? 

 

They seem to be variously described as brown and umber or brown and tan........

 

 

Rob 

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A couple of suggestions for Hattons : - 

 

1)    Once Phase 3 is out of the way, how about offering these coaches unpainted at a ( slightly ) lower price ?

2)    Please mould ALL variants in brown plastic to simplify interior detailing ...... window surrounds were inevitably varnished timber and once the window mouldings are stuck in it's a real pain to disguise any other colour. ( That applies to any other model carriage manufacturers who may be looking in, too.)

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Afternoon all,

 

I'm glad to see there's so much discussion going on regarding this announcement. We've been looking forward to sharing this with you for a little while now.

If you have anything you'd like to talk about in person then myself and a few others members of the team (Dave, Jack, Richard, Rikke and Tom) will be at the Hornby Magazine 'Great Electric Train Show' this weekend at the Marshall Arena in Milton Keynes.

We're on Stand 1, on the right hand side just inside the main hall, and will be more than happy to discuss the project with you and answer any questions you may have.

 

Cheers,

 

Dave

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Well, indeed. Certainly an interesting announcement. Makes me somewhat wish I'd bought a Stirling Single, now! Although my bank account is probably glad I didn't.

 

Other than a BR departmental version I've got no use for any of these right now. But I've always had a bit of a hankering to do a pre-grouping layout of some sort. These would be great for a minimim space rural BLT. Maybe that's a future project, when these are on the shelves.

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It kind of goes against the grain to see someone produce something freelance of the kind of thing we used to see 45+ years ago.

 

But, the idea is quite cool, its filling a gap, Maybe its a stepping stone, like with Rail’s new rtr 3D printed wagon, we may see some rtr painted 3d coaches to intersperse within these coaches.

 

I like the idea though, price seems good, though some liveries may struggle.. as indicated Met coaches are a definite mis-fit, I think MR may struggle given all those Ratio kits out there, but others within NRM edition pre-grouping liveries are a bit of a no brainer... 

 

 

it does kind of remind me of this real life caper...

 

 

I’m going to watch with interest, GNR and LYR may be of interest.

 

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This is going to be an interesting one.  For years now people have been saying they want even more detail and rarer prototypes and here, in theory, is something that flies in the face of that demand, albeit not quite as "generic" as some other offerings, but not modelled on a specific prototype.  It'll be interesting to see how they do in that respect.  Personally I'm interested in the LMS rake for my planned second layout where they will be pretty good for a fictional LNWR terminus in North Wales in the late 20s, although having recently acquired a rake of beautifully painted Ratio GWR four wheelers second hand for the Dolgellau layout I suspect we won't be getting a rake in GWR livery.

Nevertheless a nice announcement that I suspect will satisfy many even if it offends the purists.

I genuinely don't see how this will stop any RTR "authentic" four or six wheeled coaches from being made.  No RTR manufacturer will commit to producing a unique batch of coaches unless it was a fairly standard design used across a wide area.  I think the only specific vehicles that could stand a chance would be the bigger railways like the GNR GWR or LNWR express stock where there may be greater sales potential and a degree of standardisation.  Otherwise how can you be sure if the Cambrian Railways, Furness or other smaller line's specific design of stock will sell in sufficient numbers to recoup the cost of tooling?

So Hattons, how about a BR Mk2 Pullman as your next coach?  They used to run to Liverpool you know...

 

[edit] Forgot to add, I do wonder if the LNWR 2-4-0 shown in the formation diagram is a bit of a tease...I do hope so, it would be lovely to have a model of "Sister Dora" sometime in the future.  I wonder if that might be a Warley surprise?

Edited by wombatofludham
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2 hours ago, woodenhead said:

I don't think this is a threat to London Road Models and such like, if anything it may be an entry point.

 

You begin with some generic coaches, sparks and interest and next thing you've bought a brass kit to assemble.

I think you are rather mistaken here, if anything it provides an excuse not to build a more accurate model from a kit. An inaccurate coach with a accurate representation of a pre-group livery will satisfy a large proportion of modellers. The livery will be more obviously "right" to many people than the panelling, underframe details, etc. and that will satisfy their demand for pre-grouping models

 

What Hatton's are doing is reacting to a demand for pre-group carriages to match the OO locomotives that introduced over the last few years. There is some irony in that these generic carriages, which in the case of the LNWR ones look little like the prototypes, are being eagerly welcomed to run with locomotive models which have been made to much higher levels of prototype accuracy. But then, this is, for many, a loco centric hobby and carriages and wagons are less improtant so something that looks about right will do.

 

Those that want to model a particular pre-group railway with any degree of accuracy, will still need to make their own models from the wealth of kits that are available.

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