RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted October 9, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 9, 2019 Surely, there are good reasons, apart from the obvious one of economies of scale, in Hatton's choosing to go generic with this range of coaches. 1. The ability to include characteristics which were common across as wide a range of prototypes as possible. 2. The ability to exclude distinctive characteristics which would scream out their origins in stock from a specific railway. Success won't be defined by what details Hatton's get dead right for one livery, but how they avoid features that are glaringly wrong for all the others. John 1 13 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BackRoomBoffin Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 If I were to buy and use these, in whatever livery, I'd be sorely tempted to take the self-justifying approach that these are (on what would almost certainly be a fictional branchline to a fictional location) coaches produced by a fictional railway that folded and whose stock was sold off to various other companies. In the same way that the LNWR sold off the ex-NLR stock to various other companies. The GWR, too, absorbed a huuuge amount of stock from its various constituents (and in some cases sold it on, and then acquired it back with the next absorption). There was an enormous second-hand trickledown market. OK, it's a cover-story to justify modeller's license, but I have a well-reputed magazine at home published this year with a several-page article explaining how they've repainted GWR building kits into NER colours for an exhibition layout set in the North East. In fact, given that a certain manufacturer maintains the sales-blurb fiction that its model buildings are all in the same village, I could even look to Hattons to produce these coaches in the livery of the fictional 'original' company (presumably c1890s?) ... drum me out of town now... 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gerbil-Fritters Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 (edited) Well, if it's good enough for Jim at Connoisseur Models in 7mm, it's good enough for me... Edited October 9, 2019 by Dr Gerbil-Fritters 9 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sem34090 Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 The Southern ones are perfect for me through their very generic nature - I'm wanting to model coaches absorbed by the Southern from a fictional minor company. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HonestTom Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said: Surely, there are good reasons, apart from the obvious one of economies of scale, in Hatton's choosing to go generic with this range of coaches. 1. The ability to include characteristics which were common across as wide a range of prototypes as possible. 2. The ability to exclude distinctive characteristics which would scream out their origins in stock from a specific railway. Success won't be defined by what details Hatton's get dead right for one livery, but how they avoid features that are glaringly wrong for all the others. John Agreed. And if Hattons did produce a rake based on one company, you can guarantee people would be moaning all the more loudly that it wasn't their company that was chosen. 11 minutes ago, BackRoomBoffin said: If I were to buy and use these, in whatever livery, I'd be sorely tempted to take the self-justifying approach that these are (on what would almost certainly be a fictional branchline to a fictional location) coaches produced by a fictional railway that folded and whose stock was sold off to various other companies. In the same way that the LNWR sold off the ex-NLR stock to various other companies. The GWR, too, absorbed a huuuge amount of stock from its various constituents (and in some cases sold it on, and then acquired it back with the next absorption). There was an enormous second-hand trickledown market. OK, it's a cover-story to justify modeller's license, but I have a well-reputed magazine at home published this year with a several-page article explaining how they've repainted GWR building kits into NER colours for an exhibition layout set in the North East. In fact, given that a certain manufacturer maintains the sales-blurb fiction that its model buildings are all in the same village, I could even look to Hattons to produce these coaches in the livery of the fictional 'original' company (presumably c1890s?) ... drum me out of town now... This will be my excuse if anyone asks. The history of British pre-Grouping railways is so complex that it's basically impossible to say that a coach couldn't, under any circumstances, wind up with a particular company. And if you're going with something like the NCB or BR coaches, which could have undergone many modifications and rebuilds during their long lives, you're basically free to do whatever. At the moment, I use a similar excuse to justify a bashed Hornby 4-wheeler. I could see a market for a nonspecific livery for freelance modellers. Edited October 9, 2019 by HonestTom 3 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr chapman Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 Really hope these sell well and an N gauge equivalent follows. Given that people pay £30 for the old Poole 4 wheelers would be a good price to! 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 22 minutes ago, BackRoomBoffin said: If I were to buy and use these, in whatever livery, I'd be sorely tempted to take the self-justifying approach that these are (on what would almost certainly be a fictional branchline to a fictional location) coaches produced by a fictional railway that folded and whose stock was sold off to various other companies. In the same way that the LNWR sold off the ex-NLR stock to various other companies. The GWR, too, absorbed a huuuge amount of stock from its various constituents (and in some cases sold it on, and then acquired it back with the next absorption). There was an enormous second-hand trickledown market. OK, it's a cover-story to justify modeller's license, but I have a well-reputed magazine at home published this year with a several-page article explaining how they've repainted GWR building kits into NER colours for an exhibition layout set in the North East. In fact, given that a certain manufacturer maintains the sales-blurb fiction that its model buildings are all in the same village, I could even look to Hattons to produce these coaches in the livery of the fictional 'original' company (presumably c1890s?) ... drum me out of town now... 14 minutes ago, sem34090 said: The Southern ones are perfect for me through their very generic nature - I'm wanting to model coaches absorbed by the Southern from a fictional minor company. Well, indeed. Having set a style for the West Norfolk Railway's 4 and 6-wheel coaches based on Triang clerestory sides with single radius roofs, I now find Hattons announcing much the same thing in RTR form. The degree to which Hattons are conforming to West Norfolk Railway prototypes is entirely gratifying! I shall simply end up with 4 trains instead of 2. But I do like the "fictional constituent" conceit. If a railway had been built at your chosen real or fictional place, it might have been by an independent company, subsequently absorbed into a larger pre-Grouping company, that would, therefore, inherit locos and stock from the origin company. A little knowledge of the prototype plus a little imagination and you can justify these coaches without breaking a sweat. After all, I've seen Ratio or Slaters GWR 4-wheelers used to represent freelance or other companies' stock countless times. Their origin as GW coaches is usually very evident. This won't be a problem with the deliberately non-specific Hattons coaches. 16 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted October 9, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 9, 2019 1 hour ago, Wickham Green said: Hattons could have based their models on, say, a 'typical' Gloster styling or a 'typical' Brown Marshall product and they'd have been reasonably accurate for a number of different companies who bought such vehicles ............. but they've chosen to reinvent the wheel instead. What are these typical Gloucester or Brown, Marshall carriages? From at least the mid-late 1870s, when the main line companies placed orders with the private builders, these were to the company designs, not the builder's. These companies did supply a small number of carriages of their in-house design to a handful of minor railways and overseas but they're not "typical" for British or Irish railways. 35 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said: Surely, there are good reasons, apart from the obvious one of economies of scale, in Hatton's choosing to go generic with this range of coaches. 1. The ability to include characteristics which were common across as wide a range of prototypes as possible. 2. The ability to exclude distinctive characteristics which would scream out their origins in stock from a specific railway. Success won't be defined by what details Hatton's get dead right for one livery, but how they avoid features that are glaringly wrong for all the others. Indeed, except that having chosen the most generic style of panelling - round cornered, with separate waist and eves panels, they have chosen to offer them in the liveries of companies with markedly different and distinctive styles - e.g. LNWR and Great Northern - for which they will indeed be glaringly wrong. I fully acknowledge the commercial imperitive to do so but reserve to myself the right of individual conscience to regret this! 29 minutes ago, BackRoomBoffin said: If I were to buy and use these, in whatever livery, I'd be sorely tempted to take the self-justifying approach that these are (on what would almost certainly be a fictional branchline to a fictional location) coaches produced by a fictional railway that folded and whose stock was sold off to various other companies. In the same way that the LNWR sold off the ex-NLR stock to various other companies. The GWR, too, absorbed a huuuge amount of stock from its various constituents (and in some cases sold it on, and then acquired it back with the next absorption). There was an enormous second-hand trickledown market. Not so very huge, once one actually looks at the numbers of vehicles involved. But I would add to this that by c. 1910 there was a certain amount of second-hand Midland stock going to minor lines - M&GSWR, SMJ, and Col. Stephens' Shropshire & Montgomeryshire - although I think these were mostly if not all bogie carriages of 1880s vintage. 19 minutes ago, HonestTom said: The history of British pre-Grouping railways is so complex that it's basically impossible to say that a coach couldn't, under any circumstances, wind up with a particular company. I'm afraid that statement won't stand up to detailed examination. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted October 9, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 9, 2019 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Edwardian said: Having set a style for the West Norfolk Railway's 4 and 6-wheel coaches based on Triang clerestory sides with single radius roofs, I now find Hattons announcing much the same thing in RTR form. But making these was more fun than buying some would be? Edited October 9, 2019 by Compound2632 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sem34090 Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 Come to think of it, it wouldn't take much for me to be able to justify the SECR ones as there is potential for some of this fictional company's vehicles to have passed to the SECR. Incidentally, given how popular green and cream seems to be for fictional companies (I can think of a fair few at any rate) might there be a case for some in that livery? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 1 hour ago, newbryford said: At least they aren't doing a Network Rail version...……………... But if they did, you would have to buy at least one and run it on Deadman's Lane 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post woodenhead Posted October 9, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted October 9, 2019 For those still decrying the generic nature of these models, the ship has sailed. Hattons have clearly looked at their options and decided that for a reasonable low risk return on investment it is better to create a generic set of coaches at a reasonable price which can look fine on any model railway but at the same time not be an accurate representation of any particular company beyond livery. If they went down the pick a company, do one model accurately and then stick random non prototypical liveries on it the chorus of disapproval would have been massive as would the calls for 'Why didn't you pick my beloved pre-grouping company which I know has more modellers than your chosen prototype' Simply put, they would never win and there would be more disappointed people than happy modellers. 2 29 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Vistisen Posted October 9, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 9, 2019 (edited) As one of the bible bashing brigade ( I'm a liberal. I only use the paperback edition) I wonder about the significance of the name of the project Project Genesis - the original coach before they mutated and evolved? ( I really am liberal, and I certainly don't believe these coaches will take just six days to make) But this could mean we can look forwards to other projects Project Exodus: a APT-P with all 13 coaches for £10 quid, mind you though it will take them 40 years wandering about between CADS and EP. Project Numbers : It will just be a tubular diesel with a set of different number 37, 47, 52, 33 and so on, take your pick (they all look the same anyway). Project Judges: something for the rivet counters, ONE of the rivets has 7 sides not 6. Go on find it This will be their first 'N' gauge project. Project Kings: .... noooh perhaps not! Edited October 9, 2019 by Vistisen 1 12 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hitchin Junction Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 I suspect the RM Web constituency of more knowledgeable modellers is the wrong place to estimate the market success of these very well detailed "historical" coaches. From my limited sights of seriously modelled pre-grouping layouts, those who build them are really trying to recreate a little bit of history in a museum like way. But from the point of view of finding out and recreating what those times were ACTUALLY like, to experience themselves and to show and educate others. However, since those very few left with actual accurate memories of pre-grouping are at least in their 90's, most work on such layouts involves "younger" folk doing research from photos and drawings. And that research will throw up and expose the mild to seriously irritating historically incorrect discrepancies of generic models every time. That said, the idea of these being hot sellers for attractive historical fiction train sets, for the younger, or less knowledgeable, is right on. Just in the same way that fictionally "expanded" historical novels and TV series are. They recreate an interesting and pleasurable experience that matches the wishful thinking of being back in the "good old days", without the reality downsides. And you can still make use of the chassis Tim 4 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hitchin Junction Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 Project Babel: Every conceivable livery offered on a model of something that never actually existed, and eventually never will in model form. AKA Crowd funding. Tim 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 5 minutes ago, Vistisen said: As one of the bible bashing brigade ( I'm a liberal. I only use the paperback edition) I wonder about the significance of the name of the project Project Genesis - the original coach before they mutated and evolved? ( I really am liberal, and I certainly don't believe these coaches will take just six days to make) But this could mean we can look forwards to other projects Project Exodus: a APT-P with all 13 coaches for £10 quid, mind you though it will take them 40 years wandering about between CADS and EP. Project Numbers : It will just be a tubular diesel with a set of different number 37, 47, 52, 33 and so on, take your pick (they all look the same anyway). Project Judges: something for the rivet counters, ONE of the rivets has 7 sides not 6. Go on find it This will be their first 'N' gauge project. Project Kings: .... noooh perhaps not! Well then, I'll have to get all King James on yo ass. Besides, surely if we looked to name this project after a book of the Bible, we'd be reaching for the Apocrypha? 1 1 1 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium newbryford Posted October 9, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 9, 2019 24 minutes ago, woodenhead said: But if they did, you would have to buy at least one and run it on Deadman's Lane With my yellow Thomas of course! 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium PhilJ W Posted October 9, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 9, 2019 2 hours ago, newbryford said: At least they aren't doing a Network Rail version...……………... Give them time and they might. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Popular Post Hattons Dave Posted October 9, 2019 Author RMweb Gold Popular Post Share Posted October 9, 2019 Afternoon all, I've made some amendments to the drawings based on feedback we have received so far and would be grateful if you could let me know your thoughts on these. Changes include: lower beading, removed brakes on centre wheels (6 wheel) and altered compartment spacing. 4 wheel 4 compartment Original Amended 4 wheel 5 compartment Original Amended 4 wheel brake Original Amended 6 wheel 4 compartment lavatory Original Amended 6 wheel 5 compartment Original Amended 6 wheel brake Original Amended I've also included a view of the various ends which I know people were interested to see. Cheers, Dave 43 4 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Popular Post Hattons Dave Posted October 9, 2019 Author RMweb Gold Popular Post Share Posted October 9, 2019 (edited) Hi all, Here's a look at the proposed six wheel full brake that we've designed. We propose to add 2 full brakes (with different running numbers) to each livery already announced. Again, we'd love to hear feedback on this as it is always useful. Cheers, Dave Edited October 9, 2019 by Hattons Dave 56 1 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium PhilJ W Posted October 9, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 9, 2019 Many modellers seem happy with the Ratio GWR 4 wheelers in all sorts of liveries so would probably accept a generic R-T-R model. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Holliday Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 (edited) Any chance of Hatton's operating a scrap page scheme? 50p of your order if you send one of those awful Triang/Hornby four wheelers! Edited October 9, 2019 by Nick Holliday Insertion of aberrant apostrophe. 1 1 10 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LU Standard Stock Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 Marvellous! Full brakes makes me very happy and my wallet very sad! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joseph the L&YR lover Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 Just now, LU Standard Stock said: Marvellous! Full brakes makes me very happy and my wallet very sad! Pretty sure every steam era modeler's wallet is heaving except the ones waiting for batch 3. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
9402 Fredrick Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 13 minutes ago, Hattons Dave said: Hi all, Here's a look at the proposed six wheel full brake that we've designed. Again, we'd love to hear feedback on this as it is always useful. Cheers, Dave I can definitely put a couple of 6-wheel full brakes for the rake I'm working on, also hopefully the locos for the SECR Boat Train and LNWR WCML Express are a preview of two new locos to come. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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