'Genesis' 4 & 6 wheel coaches in OO Gauge - New Announcement

[Oldddudders]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

But making these was more fun than buying some would be?

This holier-than-thou attitude, that making things is more fun than buying them, has bedevilled this hobby as long as I have been a modeller, and I'm almost 71. Many of us aren't very interested in building kits per se, still less scratch-building. We want to run realistic layouts with reasonably authentic trains, preferably to a timetable. Whatever gets us to that goal before we die is likely to sell. Hattons seem to have some idea about us. 

[Dunsignalling]

Thanks Dave,

 

The narrower quarter panels are a big improvement and make the coaches look much more convincing.

 

Full brake very welcome as, in many cases, they outlived the passenger carrying vehicles by a at least a couple of decades.

 

John

 

 

[Rowsley17D]

22 minutes ago, Hattons Dave said:

Hi all,

 

Here's a look at the proposed six wheel full brake that we've designed.

 

Again, we'd love to hear feedback on this as it is always useful.

 

 

Cheers,

 

Dave

 

Well, I'll be ordering one to go with the four six-wheelers already pre-ordered.

[Gareth Collier]

I think it is a great idea from Hattons. I understand all the posts about accuracy etc, and I like my models to be as accurate as possible, but what I think everyone here is forgetting is that we are a very small slice of the model railway purchasing public and on the whole 'model' rather than play at trains. I would guess the vast majority of potential purchasers will be of the "wow, they look good" or "what coaches go with my loco" fraternity rather than "the beading is wrong" brigade.

Bottom line is no one is making you buy them. If you don't like them there are plenty of kit providers out there, Hattons target market isn't you.

[Phil Parker]

13 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

This holier-than-thou attitude, that making things is more fun than buying them, has bedevilled this hobby as long as I have been a modeller, and I'm almost 71. Many of us aren't very interested in building kits per se, still less scratch-building. We want to run realistic layouts with reasonably authentic trains, preferably to a timetable. Whatever gets us to that goal before we die is likely to sell. Hattons seem to have some idea about us. 

 

No, he was commiserating with someone who has spent ages building a set of coaches and then seen a RTR equivalent suddenly appear. "But making these was more fun than buying some would be?" is an amusing tentative silver lining.

 

Amazingly, some of us like making things and really DO get more pleasure out of building something than simply buying it. If that offends you, perhaps I should take my kit-built J72 chassis and get out of here. As it is, I see railway modelling as a multi-faceted hobby that offers something for everyone. The attitude that has bedevilled it is the "My way is the ONLY way." one. You prefer buying and operating to building, I care little for operating but love building. I think that both of us can be right.

[NHY 581]

Great news re the full brake. These should fly out. 

 

Rob

 

 

 

[BackRoomBoffin]

9 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

This holier-than-thou attitude, that making things is more fun than buying them, has bedevilled this hobby as long as I have been a modeller, and I'm almost 71. Many of us aren't very interested in building kits per se, still less scratch-building. We want to run realistic layouts with reasonably authentic trains, preferably to a timetable. Whatever gets us to that goal before we die is likely to sell. Hattons seem to have some idea about us. 



 

I'm coming at this from a very low skills base (and finances).

 

I'm totally up for the idea that kit and scratchbuilding is more fun than plonking rtr. But I want something that runs and looks sufficiently plausible for my project, whilst I'm waiting for the result of my trial and error modelling to rise, like Frankenstein's monster, from the table. I built a Ratio 4-wheeler as a child, with intense support from my father. I always felt it looked a bit rubbish next to the rtr stock (which given this is the late 80s doesn't say much for my skills). Certainly, it stood out to me.

This is not a zero-sum game. Many people want to expand their skills base. But many of those people don't trust their skill-base sufficiently to be the sole source of stock for an entire layout.

As I've said before, above, this is the norm with regards to buildings.

 

And frankly, I could cope with 'generic' pre-group locos, (but not with badly detailed out of scale 'toy train ones, which is what we've had before -- that's the difference!) but maybe I'm not very classy.

 

I'll have an 0-6-0 with 19mm wheels, an 0-4-2 with 22mm wheels and a 2-4-0 with 25mm wheels please (this being OO). Roundtop firebox, Ramsbottom safety valves, dome, unsuperheated, round spectacles on a short cab (not bothered about side profile).

 ...In black with three lining options (red / green / blue), no numbering or lettering.

[Miss Prism]

 

Edited October 14, 2019 by Miss Prism
original attachment corrupted, replacement inserted

[Budgie]

4 hours ago, newbryford said:

At least they aren't doing a Network Rail version...……………...

 

Who's going to be the first to repaint some in Network SouthEast livery?

 

 

 

 

Edited October 9, 2019 by Budgie
spelling mistook

[Joseph_Pestell]

57 minutes ago, Hattons Dave said:

Afternoon all,

 

I've made some amendments to the drawings based on feedback we have received so far and would be grateful if you could let me know your thoughts on these.

 

Changes include: lower beading, removed brakes on centre wheels (6 wheel) and altered compartment spacing.

 

4 wheel 4 compartment

Original

Amended

 

4 wheel 5 compartment

Original

Amended

 

4 wheel brake

Original

Amended

 

6 wheel 4 compartment lavatory

Original

Amended

 

6 wheel 5 compartment

Original

Amended

 

6 wheel brake

Original

Amended

 

I've also included a view of the various ends which I know people were interested to see.

 

Cheers,

 

Dave

 

I am sure somebody will come up with some examples but...

 

I can't think of any brake ends where the layout is passenger compartments, lookout, guard's luggage doors. The lookout is usually at the end of the carriage.

[Compound2632]

42 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

This holier-than-thou attitude, that making things is more fun than buying them, has bedevilled this hobby as long as I have been a modeller, and I'm almost 71. Many of us aren't very interested in building kits per se, still less scratch-building. We want to run realistic layouts with reasonably authentic trains, preferably to a timetable. Whatever gets us to that goal before we die is likely to sell. Hattons seem to have some idea about us. 

 

22 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

No, he was commiserating with someone who has spent ages building a set of coaches and then seen a RTR equivalent suddenly appear. "But making these was more fun than buying some would be?" is an amusing tentative silver lining.

 

Amazingly, some of us like making things and really DO get more pleasure out of building something than simply buying it. If that offends you, perhaps I should take my kit-built J72 chassis and get out of here. As it is, I see railway modelling as a multi-faceted hobby that offers something for everyone. The attitude that has bedevilled it is the "My way is the ONLY way." one. You prefer buying and operating to building, I care little for operating but love building. I think that both of us can be right.

 

Apologies if I came across as sanctimonious. Really, my true opinion is probably somewhere inbetween. I do enjoy building stuff (as does the builder of those carriages) but equally, I will buy stuff ready-made if it satisfies my cravings. Each to his own gout - leisure shopping isn't mine! (I can't really afford it.)

Edited October 9, 2019 by Compound2632

[Miss Prism]

[wombatofludham]

1 hour ago, woodenhead said:

For those still decrying the generic nature of these models, the ship has sailed.

 

Hattons have clearly looked at their options and decided that for a reasonable  low risk return on investment it is better to create a generic set of coaches at a reasonable price which can look fine on any model railway but at the same time not be an accurate representation of any particular company beyond livery.

 

If they went down the pick a company, do one model accurately and then stick random non prototypical liveries on it the chorus of disapproval would have been massive as would the calls for 'Why didn't you pick my beloved pre-grouping company which I know has more modellers than your chosen prototype'  Simply put, they would never win and there would be more disappointed people than happy modellers.

 
Completely agree with this.

Really, the chances of getting a detailed, line specific model four or six wheeler are slim to nothing, interest in pre-grouping railways is so fragmented and relatively small it would be commercial suicide to focus on one railway's unique designs, even for relatively popular large outfits like the GWR.  Those who produce the wonderful examples of exhibition layouts set in the pre-grouping era are already committed to kit building on a massive scale because there are few locos, no buildings, or rolling stock available for their particular niche interest.  So, to be honest, they probably wouldn't be interested in RTR anyway simply because pre grouping carriage designs were not as standardised as post grouping or BR so even if a "proper" rake of RTR was made in their preferred railway designs it would be probably just as wrong and in so doing exclude their sale in other railway liveries.

There is a problem with RMWeb that some of the comments about the generic nature of this project highlights: a lack of commercial awareness and an at times overbearing sense of entitlement and narrow minds.  It's not scientific, but when I engage with railway modellers visiting the Dolgellau layout, and happen to mention something on RMWeb, very, very few respond either that they are aware of the site, or if they are, I've had a shockingly significant number of responses that view the site negatively, based on the perception of some of the comments and attitudes being "elitist" (yes, someone actually said that...) or judgemental.  I don't necessarily share that view, but it does put into context the validity and representation of some of the views being expressed.  Hattons are clearly confident that the kind of modeller who hasn't heard of RMWeb, who doesn't knit their own Stephenson valve gear, or run a perfect 4mm scale steel mill to hand roll scale bullhead rails will enjoy these better, more contemporary standard representational models in sufficient numbers to make them enough money to justify the expense of tooling, and to make up for the fall-out with Bachmann.

And that's the bottom line.  Hatton's are out to make money, and need to innovate now they have lost a supply deal with one of the major players.  Clearly they see an increasing interest in pre-grouping steam which has been mentioned on here, but, faced with the 101 variations on the theme four and six wheel coach, and probably having seen enough "repurposed" GWR four wheelers running on exhibition layouts at shows in other liveries, they obviously think there is some merit in this project, and fair play, they have listened to some of the comments and appear to be making some changes that presumably will help with sales whilst still retaining the "composite" nature of the design to save on production cost.

Of course some will never be happy with a non-specific design being produced.  Many will continue to follow their chosen path of kit or hand building - and all power to their elbow.  However, to use that skill and application of high standards to criticise this project is missing the point.  If people were saying "Unfortunately a generic design won't fit my model, I will continue to kit build, but I can see where commercially there is a market and anything that helps pre grouping modelling must be good, they are just not for me" fair enough.  But to assume a detailed range of four and six wheelers to a specific railway's design would sell in sufficient numbers to justify a company like Hatton's, who let's not forget are still relatively new to the original production market and have recently had the Bachmann debacle to cope with, committing hundreds of thousands of pounds at a turbulent time for the economy, is unrealistic.  A one size fits all design to more contemporary production standards and with added play features like lighting is still a massive commitment in investment when there are still relatively few appropriate locos to haul them, but at least has the benefit of being more of a spread-bet on the market.

I do like the full brake, that will be potentially very useful for both Dolgellau and my proposed LMS layout (although if the Precedent is sneaky tease, I might be doing something a bit more LNWR themed!)

[ossy5190]

Very quick response to feedback, well done Hattons!

 

For the full break a more typical arrangement would probably be to have the centre door and lookout evenly sized and symmetrical around the centre of the coach with the double doors further in with an equal number or panels either side. 

 

The compartment spacing looks better but on a purely personal note the lack of lower paneling would make me rethink what I would do with them. Far less suitable for Scottish prototypes but probably more suitable for many English lines. Can't please everyone I know but I would probably use them as a foreign excursion set rather than Caledonian stock.

[Oldddudders]

11 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

 

Apologies if I came across as sanctimonious. Really, my true opinion is probably somewhere inbetween. I do enjoy building stuff (as does the builder of those carriages) but equally, I will buy stuff ready-made if it satisfies my cravings. Each to his own gout - leisure shopping isn't mine!

Apology accepted. I simply find it disheartening that in a thread about a great new RTR product, the old saw about building being more satisfying than buying needs to be trotted out. Of course there are plenty of modellers who, as Phil says, prefer making things to running them - but this thread is not about them. 

[PhilJ W]

38 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

No, he was commiserating with someone who has spent ages building a set of coaches and then seen a RTR equivalent suddenly appear. "But making these was more fun than buying some would be?" is an amusing tentative silver lining.

 

Amazingly, some of us like making things and really DO get more pleasure out of building something than simply buying it. If that offends you, perhaps I should take my kit-built J72 chassis and get out of here. As it is, I see railway modelling as a multi-faceted hobby that offers something for everyone. The attitude that has bedevilled it is the "My way is the ONLY way." one. You prefer buying and operating to building, I care little for operating but love building. I think that both of us can be right.

Theres plenty of scope for 'chopping' these models. Some 'chops' of the Triang/Hornby clerestory coaches have been illustrated.

[Oldddudders]

39 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

No, he was commiserating with someone who has spent ages building a set of coaches and then seen a RTR equivalent suddenly appear. "But making these was more fun than buying some would be?" is an amusing tentative silver lining.

 

Amazingly, some of us like making things and really DO get more pleasure out of building something than simply buying it. If that offends you, perhaps I should take my kit-built J72 chassis and get out of here. As it is, I see railway modelling as a multi-faceted hobby that offers something for everyone. The attitude that has bedevilled it is the "My way is the ONLY way." one. You prefer buying and operating to building, I care little for operating but love building. I think that both of us can be right.

But why is that certainty, that many modellers, particularly on a forum like this, prefer building to buying, relevant to this new range of RTR products?

 

I have happily accepted Compound's apology. 

[Compound2632]

8 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

Apology accepted. I simply find it disheartening that in a thread about a great new RTR product, the old saw about building being more satisfying than buying needs to be trotted out. Of course there are plenty of modellers who, as Phil says, prefer making things to running them - but this thread is not about them. 

 

And I also fully accept that, if operation is the aspect of the hobby that appeals most, having some reliable RTR carriages is preferable to some slightly wonky, prone to derail, kit or scratch-built ones!

[melmerby]

28 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

I am sure somebody will come up with some examples but...

 

I can't think of any brake ends where the layout is passenger compartments, lookout, guard's luggage doors. The lookout is usually at the end of the carriage.

Challenge accepted!

 

 

[ChrisN]

I spent a few months scratch building two 1860 Cambrian coaches.  I plan to scratch build two or three more.  I have drawings of up to 13 Cambrian 4 and 6 wheelers which I will probably build with my Silhouette cutter.  On my layout when it eventually gets built there will be through coaches.  I have a certain number of drawings of GWR clerestory coaches to again make on my cutter.  I already have five or six MLSR coaches cut but I am waiting for Dart castings to produce the correct springs, (they are on their web site.)  

 

So where do these coaches come in?  (At last you say.)  LNWR also sent through coaches both from London and Liverpool.  So as the above may take more modelling time than I have and perhaps some locos should be built at some time, some R-T-R LNWR stock will at least give me something to run.  Probably need the Tri-composite, shame it has no toilet, the 1st/3rd 6 wheel composite, brake thirds and a full brake, or two if they produce them.  (The LNWR sent a lot of just full brakes carrying, ?post, ?luggage.)  

 

Finally, if the 3D print of the LCDR loco gets made a few of these repainted could go behind it ready for my third layout which is so far away these might just be a display piece.

[t-b-g]

Those improvements do make a difference and are worth incorporating.

 

I might just make a suggestion about the cranked vacuum pipes. An angle like that is usually to allow the pipe to sit on the centre line of the vehicle, above the coupling.

 

There may be vehicles that have the crank running up away from the centre line like that but they are not known to me. This is copied from another RMWeb thread so should be OK for copywrite. If the vacuum pipe was in the position shown, the pipe would almost certainly be vertical and straight, rather than cranked.

 

Edited October 9, 2019 by t-b-g

[Budgie]

There is a wonderful picture of at least eleven 4-wheel thirds with a 6-wheel brake third in SECR livery (various degrees of cleanliness) at Orpington on pages 20-21 of John Arkell's Private Owner Wagons of the South-East (Lightmoor Press, 2016).

 

To @Hattons Dave: Have you thought of making a 4-pack of the same vehicle? I'm particularly thinking of the 4-wheel thirds, but others may be suitable too.

 

 

Edited October 9, 2019 by Budgie

[Compound1000]

I think this is a super project personally and would applaud Hattons for their bravery on this one, I hope it works out well for them. Pre grouping isn’t really my era, but the LMS options and post nationalisation peices certainly have appeal. 

 

I’d had a similar thought about the  “chopping” potential of these @PhilJ W, potentially using several to create a “generic” but credible coach body of suitable dimensions to sit atop a longer “bogie” chassis.  if I can think of a suitable donor chassis in RTR or attempt to build one from a kit, that is! 

[Bucoops]

This is not a moan, just my observations for what they are worth

 

I would absolutely LOVE to see accurate late GER 6 wheelers produced by someone. These generic ones are too generic for me - but they aren't aimed at me.

 

It will be very much a popcorn moment when the EPs are released and people pull them apart  - I won't be doing that.

 

It's a curious move in a world where accuracy is King and samples are torn to pieces to go down this route.

 

Best of luck - I suspect and hope they will sell well.

[Miss Prism]