'Genesis' 4 & 6 wheel coaches in OO Gauge - New Announcement

[stewartingram]

22 minutes ago, phil gollin said:

.

 

So, what happens if they produce a 30ft 1" design, but when it is delivered it scales out at 30ft ?

 

 

.Put it in the vice and squeeze it up a bit. That's modelling isn't it?

 

Stewart

 

Edit to add: sorry I read that the wrong way round! Oh well, just put it in the oven for a few minutes, it will expand.... 

Edited October 10, 2019 by stewartingram
typo

[newbryford]

1 hour ago, Pteremy said:

Not my area of interest - unless there is a convincing BR Departmental version - but i can't believe that there is not plenty of scope for after market activity here, 

 

Panel a few windows, paint it black and then stick a DE/DM/DS/DW number on it.

 

Bit of modelling. Job done.

[wombatofludham]

4 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

The stumbling block nowadays seems to be that the newer generation of modellers wants it all NOW, and is not prepared to spend time building up a skill set. Producing generic coaches will only encourage this 'near enough' attitude - which is bound, in the long run, to lead to the 'dumbing-down' of the hobby.

 

 

 

That's quite an objectionable statement and a gross over simplification.  I have honed modelling skills, I prefer to use them on scenery.  I use kits, 3d prints to my own design (scratchbuilding by CAD, a different skill but a skill nonetheless) and yes, ready to plant buildings re-purposed to achieve what I want.  I use RTR stock as I don't want to get into doing much more than the occasional repaint, rename and renumber.  I can't solder and to be honest life is too short to try and overcome 50 years of abortive attempts to crack the skill, and when it comes to painting unless the loco ran in unlined black, or a modern simple stripy livery, anything involving fine lining is out.  Again, I could learn, and master the skill, but I'm the wrong side of 50, and I have other calls on my time.  But to say just because I prefer RTR stock means I'm dumbing down the hobby is offensive.  It just means I prefer to allocate my ration of modelling time to producing scenery, and helping maintain the Dolgellau layout rather than destroying a white metal kit with my cack soldering skills (which I have done).

Mind you, I did modify a Hornby ex Airfix-Dapol Mk2d to a super mini-buffet.  Relatively simple, hack away two bays of seats, design and 3d print a buffet counter to fit in the gap, paint and stick the coach back together with a red cantrail stripe and new transfers.  Great, real modelling.  Only problem is the level of tint on the windows means you can't actually see the buffet area modelled, but at least I know it's there.  So, I'm not just a box opener, and believe me, designing and 3d printing scenic objects, buildings and details is quite an involved task, just because I'm not cutting plastic or wood doesn't mean it's simply twiddling a few buttons, I have to think how the printer will produce the items, how to break down a complex object into components to allow for the printing process, and then work out how to scale them and produce the image for the printer.  It's a 21st century way to scratch-build and learning by trial and error how to do it has, frankly, been a much better use of my time than learning how to solder or learn how to line a Claughton.   

 

3 hours ago, Mark Saunders said:

 

Why not break the cycle of lookalike/fantasy when you can get it right first time for the same price!

 

Mark Saunders

 

OK, but which "right first time" model would you choose?  In recent times we've seen pre-grouping locos from the LNWR, LBSCR, SECR, GER, Midland, L&Y, GNR and GWR, with incoming models from the Caledonian and I think the NBR.  All of those railways would have a call on some four and six wheel vehicles, all of which were probably a unique design.  Given the cost of tooling up for a single coach is going to be in the order of hundreds of thousands of pounds, and you will need probably five or six designs per railway to allow for a relatively basic selection of traffic types, let's say conservatively it'll cost roughly half a million to tool up just one railway's stock.  In order to satisfy the existing market for pre-grouping coaching stock, based on existing loco availability, you'd be looking at probably £4million, although possibly that figure could be reduced by clever design of common components, but still an extraordinary sum of money for a highly fragmented market.

So, given the reality of economics and likely sales, which railway's "right first time" designs would you select for the limited tooling funding, and which potentially nine other railway company modellers would you disappoint/upset/offend by either offering one company's design in fictional liveries or just not bother with?  Half a mil to produce a range of close enough for the majority of users coaches isn't anywhere near the potential four million it would probably cost to make line specific designs for every pre-grouping railway which has RTR locos available or in preparation, when total sales will almost certainly not reach that figure.

[newbryford]

5 hours ago, Nile said:

Out there in the real world this is true for many of the people that buy RTR models. It's the livery they will notice, not the fine details. There is a market there to be tapped.

 

Hence the relatively brisk sales of coaches in Network Rail yellow.

[JohnR]

1 hour ago, Aire Head said:

Whoops my bias is showing I tend to ignore green things 

 

The Green departmental is a Southern Railway departmental....not BR (S)

[Darius43]

21 minutes ago, stewartingram said:

Oh well, just put it in the oven for a few minutes, it will expand.... 

 

...but not necessarily in a uniform manner.

 

Cheers

 

Darius

[ndg910]

I’ve been keeping an eye on this very long and generally quite interesting thread with some fascinating nuggets of information and I must say the idea of generic pre grouping stock is inspired.

 

My initial reaction was great, this will resolve my ‘workman train’ problem as I don’t think my coach kit building skills or the quality of the Ratio mouldings are issues I can overcome to turn out good quality coach kits. Give me a loco or wagon kit and I’m happy but I need to master coaches and lining some more. Thus I have moved Into the dilemma phase of do I really need them and that will inevitably last up to delivery in 2021. 

 

I cant say these will be high on my wish list if only because they will need a siding to lay over in whilst the workman earn their crust as I don’t see them as workaday coaches like  a B-set or non gangwayed bow ended stock. Sorry am talking GW here as that’s my primary interest.

 

So for now I’m going to refrain from ordering but keep them on the radar. I wish Hattons well with this venture. It’s the sort of bold venture that will do well as they can be suited for use in train sets, be improved by modellers, be hacked by kit and scratch builders and be used legitimately to give realism. If the numbers of posts since Tuesday is anything to go by they will sell like hot cakes.

[melmerby]

12 minutes ago, ndg910 said:

 I don’t think my coach kit building skills or the quality of the Ratio mouldings are issues I can overcome to turn out good quality coach kits.

What's wrong with the quality of the Ratio mouldings?

The accuracy of the coaches produced isn't 100% but the moulding is some of the better from plastic kit suppliers.

[Trog]

3 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Or you could go to Milton Keynes...

 

 

 

 

Jason

 

Lovely level piece of track that, we got some very strange looks as we installed it in the middle of what was then a large open paved area.

[Darius43]

.

Edited October 10, 2019 by Darius43
Duplicate post

[Northroader]

Help, I read page 16 at breakfast, go out for the day, think I’ll see what’s happening, and Im looking at page 24, in the words of the pub landlord “ain’t you ***** got homes to go to?” I do hope everyone’s taking breaks for sustenance and to lavish some love and attention on your nearest and dearest.

Now, one aspect of this, I’ve been scratch building six wheelers and from kits, and I can assure you they are little twats, even allowing for my workmanship. Bogie coaches are extremely forgiving with regard to tight curvature, uneven track, and so on, but a six wheeler can smell it out and react. I notice in a few places in this thread the comment to the effect “my Hornby stove R / milk van was poor running and I sent it back”. I’ve bought a sample to crib how to do it, and I found them well designed, and functioning well. I wish Hattons every luck in creating a troublefree chassis, and in the meantime I’d advise every one who’s done an advance order to spend the next two years getting their track alignment spot on, or they’ll be bitterly disappointed when the parcel lands on the mat.

Edited October 11, 2019 by Northroader

[Vistisen]

1 hour ago, Miss Prism said:

 

Really?

 

Talk us through that one.

 

 

No, I have a life. If I want to have a futile argument....

I was going to write 'i can talk to my teenagers' but that would be a cheap jibe. Because they are actually able to discuss things rather than just argue.

[Nearholmer]

" But he criticises RTR locomotives for being a millimetre out then lauds freelance carriage models. "

 

Lauding freelancing, eh? 

 

What is it about freelancing that so upsets some people?

 

I ask that as a genuine question, because, judging from this thread, freelancing, as in making stuff up, really does disturb some people very deeply, and I really don't understand why.

 

 

 

 

[Big James]

Trawling through this thread. I feel like these are a fantastic idea. But these coaches seem to be marmite. But after reading about the Bodmin and Wadebridge railway. They bought their coaching stock and locomotives in from outside contractors before being gobbled up by the LSWR and getting Beattie well tanks. I wonder if we would see a set on a newly absorbed branch line with a suitably repainted Hornby peckett. 

 

Big james 

[t-b-g]

I am not sure whether we need a philosophical debate on the merits of freelance models.

 

It has always been the case that some like them and some don't.

 

The arguments for and against both have some merit and the only people who are wrong are those who see their view as being "right".

 

Is there any danger that we can just accept the decision that has been made and that we can all, as individuals with our own preferences, either support the move and possibly purchase the product or not be keen on the idea and choose to carry on building more accurate models from kits or from scratch?

 

There really is no right or wrong and no need for digs or insults at those who don't share the same views as we do.

 

 

[HonestTom]

32 minutes ago, Big James said:

Trawling through this thread. I feel like these are a fantastic idea. But these coaches seem to be marmite. But after reading about the Bodmin and Wadebridge railway. They bought their coaching stock and locomotives in from outside contractors before being gobbled up by the LSWR and getting Beattie well tanks. I wonder if we would see a set on a newly absorbed branch line with a suitably repainted Hornby peckett. 

 

Big james 

 

I suspect, reading through this thread, something like that will be the justification for many a purchase. I already use a similar argument for a rechassised Hornby 4-wheeler.

[bbishop]

This will be my first and only contribution to this thread.  On the first page it announces LSWR brown and tan.  Do you mind, chocolate and salmon please.

 

Bill

[Andy Hayter]

I have held back on answering to this thread because I have a somewhat ambivalent view regarding my own modelling.

I have scratch built coaches and they are not 100% accurate.

I have kit built coaches and they too are not 100% accurate.

I have bought rtr coaches and some at least are not 100% accurate.

So where is the problem in buying a generic coach that looks reasonable but is not 100% accurate?  OK by their nature these will be rather less accurate than the examples given above but we are arguing degree not concept.

 

My own pre-grouping layout gives me the possibility to support stock from 8 pre-grouping companies.  A number of the Hattons coaches could well help fill gaps and will not look dramatically out of place.  Others that I could use are - to my eye at least - too far away from the company standards.  These I will not buy.  That others will be happy or delighted to buy such coaches does not bother me.  Why should it?  How does it impact on my modelling in any negative way?  Not at all.  So live and let live.  As I hope that those with higher standards than myself will allow me to live and let live with my choices.

 

If I live to be 100 then these Hattons purchases may well be replaced  with more accurate examples by one method or another.  However in a real world, rather than my skills improving over time and with experience, I find they are very slowly receding - rather poorer eyesight and poorer control of hands and fingers are a feature of aging for many.  So for a time at least some Hattons imperfect coaches will likely allow my layout to have a better and more realistic overall impression than if I had gaps in my stock where no gaps should exist.

 

Hectoring those who consider these as a good enough fit to their requirements will do nothing to persuade those people to improve their skills.  Allowing them to buy in peace but pointing out the shortfalls might however provide the impetus for them to do something about it in the future.

 

One problem I do see is the paucity of available coach kits for pre-grouping coaches.  Mallard, Blacksmith and (currently) Slater's coaches are only available via the second hand market often at silly prices, which is a situation that I will admit I have contributed to.  Others are only available from manufacturers who do not have an internet presence.  No criticism of them, that is their choice and they will have their reasons, just as I have my reasons for seriously considering generic coaches.  Other producers have withdrawn partially or completely from the market.  To pretend then that to model coaches from every corner of the pre-grouping world is just a case of buying a kit is very much an over-simplification.

[Nile]

5 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

So live and let live.

Let us hope so.

[LBRJ]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

" But he criticises RTR locomotives for being a millimetre out then lauds freelance carriage models. "

 

Lauding freelancing, eh? 

 

What is it about freelancing that so upsets some people?

 

I ask that as a genuine question, because, judging from this thread, freelancing, as in making stuff up, really does disturb some people very deeply, and I really don't understand why.

 

 

 

 

I hinted at the same thought much earlier in this eternal thread.

If its all made up, they cant tell you just how much they know its all wrong (or right) and that idea sits very uneasy in some minds.

model railways are, and should be, all about doing what you want to do...its toy trains FFS!!  -but some just have to tell you what is what,what is right and what is not.

[Craigw]

6 hours ago, LBRJ said:

I hinted at the same thought much earlier in this eternal thread.

If its all made up, they cant tell you just how much they know its all wrong (or right) and that idea sits very uneasy in some minds.

model railways are, and should be, all about doing what you want to do...its toy trains FFS!!  -but some just have to tell you what is what,what is right and what is not.

 

Edited October 11, 2019 by Craigw

[RLWP]

2 hours ago, Northroader said:

Help, I read page 16 at breakfast, go out for the day, think I’ll see what’s happening, and Im looking at page 24, in the words of the pub landlord “ain’t you ***** got homes to go to?” I do hope everyone’s taking breaks for sustenance and to lavish some love and attention on your nearest and dearest.

 

I say, steady on - I went to the pub instead

 

<hic>

[RLWP]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

What is it about freelancing that so upsets some people?

 

I ask that as a genuine question, because, judging from this thread, freelancing, as in making stuff up, really does disturb some people very deeply, and I really don't understand why.

 

 

 

 

 

It is an odd one, and I'm as guilty as the rest. I happily accept 009 NG railways that never were, my own NG railway modelling has slightly more constraints. Fictional light railways are sort of OK but uncomfortable. Fully freelance UK mainline railways are (for some reason) too much for me

 

Damn, more introspection...

 

Richard

[wombatofludham]

1 hour ago, bbishop said:

Do you mind, chocolate and salmon please.

 

Bill

Is that the new Adams low-fidelity diet?

[chris45lsw]

On 09/10/2019 at 14:46, JohnR said:

 

 

Here is the sort of thing I had in mind. I leave it to the coach experts to tell me what these were originally.... Camping coaches at East Budleigh in 1948. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, these are LC&DR carriages and they remained in camping coach service up to and including the 1953 Season.

 

Chris Knowles-Thomas