'Genesis' 4 & 6 wheel coaches in OO Gauge - New Announcement

[Skinnylinny]

Unfortunately they suffer from the problem that the old Hornby LBSC brake van suffers from - the first ones entered service just a few months before the grouping, so no use for Improved Engine Green locos.

Aaaanyway, I'm getting off-topic! 

[Miss Prism]

2 minutes ago, gr.king said:

If I understand correctly, then I agree that the heights of the shallow panels around the waist and above the window line could / should be greater than so far depicted.

 

An inch more at the waist, and a couple of inches more at the eaves, would I think do the trick.

 

We should perhaps wait for Compound's more comprehensive analysis though. There is a significant difference between an '1880' treatment and an '1890' treatment. IMHO.

 

[Wickham Green]

6 minutes ago, Skinnylinny said:

........... A nice little 6-wheeler on the other hand, yes please!

The SECR brakes were a 'copy' of the Midland van so quite easy for a manufacturer to do that too .................... We already have Midland 3Fs and 4Fs to pull them, of course.

[Dunsignalling]

11 minutes ago, Skinnylinny said:

The Dancehalls are very nice, but (being built from 1921, I think?) are rather too modern to go with a Wainwright-liveried loco... A nice little 6-wheeler on the other hand, yes please!

Those were pretty much identical to the Midland Railway equivalent and there was a superb thread on here describing how to build them from Parkside LMS brake van parts.

 

John

[Miss Prism]

Even for those of you who couldn't care less what these coaches will look like, I think droplights add a nice touch, if only for the sake of passengers (who tend to appreciate them). On the assumption, possibly a rash one, that droplights might feature soon on the drawings for these vehicles:

 

 

[Skinnylinny]

45 minutes ago, Wickham Green said:

The SECR brakes were a 'copy' of the Midland van so quite easy for a manufacturer to do that too .................... We already have Midland 3Fs and 4Fs to pull them, of course.

41 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Those were pretty much identical to the Midland Railway equivalent and there was a superb thread on here describing how to build them from Parkside LMS brake van parts.

 

John

 

The trick, if doing a MR/SE&CR brake van, would be to produce a MR D299 wagon too (62000 of which were produced), some of which were also sold on to... the SE&CR! Double it up, produce it in MR, SECR, LMS, and SR liveries.

 

...Right, that really is enough off-topic from me!
 

Edited October 15, 2019 by Skinnylinny

[Compound2632]

25 minutes ago, Skinnylinny said:

 

The trick, if doing a MR/SE&CR brake van, would be to produce a MR D299 wagon too (62000 of which were produced), some of which were also sold on to... the SE&CR! Double it up, produce it in MR, SECR, LMS, and SR liveries.
 

 

Built 1882-1900, mostly. An unknown quantity hired to the SE&CR c. 1912. Also built by the S&DJR at Highbridge, during the 1880s and 90s, about 500 or so - half of which went to the LSWR in 1914. Almost certainly started to be withdrawn from c. 1911, as the Midland started building 10 ton opens, a process that continued under the LMS, with tens of thousands of D1666/D1667 opens built 1923-1930. I do not think I have seen a photograph of one in post-1936 LMS bauxite livery, certainly not BR grey.

 

So, fails the "survived nationalisation" test, I'm afraid.

[stephennicholson]

6 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

 

Not with the Bachmann birdcage carriages or, for that matter, the dancehall brake.

 

Depends on your definition of Edwardian, Often the years after his death to the start of ww1 are included in this period.

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, stephennicholson said:

 

Depends on your definition of Edwardian, Often the years after his death to the start of ww1 are included in this period.

 

Fair enough; the 60ft Birdcages came in in 1912 but the dancehall brakes were first built in 1918.

[davknigh]

Given the lead times for these items is it possible for Hatton’s to take on board some of the suggestions put forward in this thread or is everything done and dusted for the design?

 

Cheers,

 

David

[Oldddudders]

6 minutes ago, davknigh said:

Given the lead times for these items is it possible for Hatton’s to take on board some of the suggestions put forward in this thread or is everything done and dusted for the design?

 

Cheers,

 

David

Since I am sure you read the post at 16.06 on page 21, you already know that Hatton's MD is content for his developing staff to take on board what they can from this thread. 

[richarddavies]

1 hour ago, Oldddudders said:

Since I am sure you read the post at 16.06 on page 21, you already know that Hatton's MD is content for his developing staff to take on board what they can from this thread. 

 

Yes @Hattons Dave has a notepad next to his desk, with frequent notes being made to it, relative to this thread.  Had a busy week, so maybe an update from him next week, is more likely.

 

Richard 

MD, Hatton's

[Edwardian]

4 hours ago, stephennicholson said:

 

Depends on your definition of Edwardian, Often the years after his death ....

 

Is there something I should know?

[Compound2632]

Edwardian a pertaining to the reign of King Edward the Confessor, 1042-1066.

[jukebox]

11 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

 

An inch more at the waist, and a couple of inches more at the eaves, would I think do the trick.

 

 

 

 

Sounds like what a couple of lads at the local might say when the new girl walked through the door

[Compound2632]

Waist too high by about 4". (i.w. lower panel height.) Data to follow.

[Nick Holliday]

On 14 October 2019 at 15:39, Edwardian said:

 

Yes, and the fact that the panel style adopted by Stroudley and the beginning of the 1870s was not adopted by the GW in a recongisably similar form until 20 years later. 

Although it would be nice, for me, to think that Stroudley had been a pioneer many years ahead of his time, I suspect this entry, from the excellent penrhos website suggests otherwise.

The top design is a good match to the Genesis proposal for a four compartment four wheeler.

One thing this demonstrates is that even the GWR was not consistent in some of its designs. Note that the second has straight ends, yet the third has the more typical GWR turnunder end, just to add to the mix.

A perverse thought has occurred to me, that perhaps the Genesis four wheelers might be made to a different design altogether. Up until the adoption of the curved moulded panels, many lines had followed the lead of the main carriage builders, with square panelling. Several companies continued with that style afterwards, such as the LCDR, which would extend the running period up to, perhaps, the twenties, although the original 1860's designs would probably have been replaced by the end of the century. This might increase the potential market, and could lead to a whole new area of cutting and shutting to make six wheelers from four, and vice versa.

[Edwardian]

4 minutes ago, Nick Holliday said:

Although it would be nice, for me, to think that Stroudley had been a pioneer many years ahead of his time, I suspect this entry, from the excellent penrhos website suggests otherwise.

The top design is a good match to the Genesis proposal for a four compartment four wheeler.

One thing this demonstrates is that even the GWR was not consistent in some of its designs. Note that the second has straight ends, yet the third has the more typical GWR turnunder end, just to add to the mix.

A perverse thought has occurred to me, that perhaps the Genesis four wheelers might be made to a different design altogether. Up until the adoption of the curved moulded panels, many lines had followed the lead of the main carriage builders, with square panelling. Several companies continued with that style afterwards, such as the LCDR, which would extend the running period up to, perhaps, the twenties, although the original 1860's designs would probably have been replaced by the end of the century. This might increase the potential market, and could lead to a whole new area of cutting and shutting to make six wheelers from four, and vice versa.

 

True, and you'll recall that I did point out in my, admittedly brief, little survey that the GWR adopted this style in the 1870s, but, as your selection illustrates, with the noticeably deeper eaves panels. 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 16, 2019 by Edwardian

[Compound2632]

@Nick Holliday, the panelling style the Great Western was using for these carriages of the early 1870s is very close to the panelling style T.G. Clayton used for Midland carriages up to 1896. This is hardly surprising, given that he was Carriage & Wagon Superintendent of the Great Western before moving to the same post on the Midland in 1873. The Great Western style evolved over the years in some subtle ways that are discussed on Penhros - but exact dimensions seem elusive, despite @Miss Prism's efforts.

 

A distinctive feature of this style as used by the Great Western and Midland is the rather deep eves panels - 8½” on Midland vehicles; at one time as much as 12" on Great Western carriages: http://penrhos.me.uk/LewisClassification.shtml.

 

Post crossed with @Edwardian.

 

Edited October 16, 2019 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

8 hours ago, jukebox said:

 

Sounds like what a couple of lads at the local might say when the new girl walked through the door

 

You are starting to understand just what makes the study of pre-grouping carriages so fascinating.

[Wickham Green]

9 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Edwardian a pertaining to the reign of King Edward the Confessor, 1042-1066.

That's VERY pre-grouping ! .................................. anyone know anything about panelling styles on chariots ?

[Miss Prism]

Having read it a few times, my reaction to Compound's 'long post':

 

- The lav windows would be frosted, but there would not be droplights.

 

- I feel the windows in the luggage doors on the centre luggage compo would probably have droplights (as per the Brake 3rd). Admittedly, this is on the cusp of overlapping eras, but droplights on luggage doors can be seen on an LA9-style U20 as early as 1885, as per melmerby's post. (Question: when did bars/grilles started to be fitted to luggage/brake doors?)

 

- I suggest duckets should be non-mirrored (unless the ducket is on the vehicle centreline, in which case the guard's doors should not be mirrored).
 

[Bernard Lamb]

54 minutes ago, Wickham Green said:

That's VERY pre-grouping ! .................................. anyone know anything about panelling styles on chariots ?

Pack wagons rather than chariots would be more common.

I have no idea about the body style but the gauge would have been the same as we use today.

Bernard

 

[gr.king]

As I believe these are supposed to be GENERIC coaches, equally suitable / unsuitable for all, I suspect a worrying developing emphasis on trying to match the features to the coaching stock of the South and South Midlands of England. There is a good case for the band of panels around the waist to be considerably taller, to bring the look more closely into line with the style of other companies, such as GNR or MS&LR (albeit with the wrong kind of beading on the lower panels) or the LDECR, as seen very well in the image in the seventh post (by Jonny 777) on this page:

Unhelpfully,  not the image displayed in this automatically created link.......

Edited October 16, 2019 by gr.king

[Compound2632]

35 minutes ago, Bernard Lamb said:

Pack wagons rather than chariots would be more common.

I have no idea about the body style but the gauge would have been the same as we use today.

Bernard

 

 

Ah, goods the bread and butter, passengers the icing on the cake, as ever. But this is a thread for passenger vehicles. Chariots are out of court - 2-wheelers; it's 4- and 6-wheelers here!