'Genesis' 4 & 6 wheel coaches in OO Gauge - New Announcement

[PhilJ W]

But will they match?

[Hroth]

12 minutes ago, melmerby said:

We already have "generic" pre grouping bogies.

They are called Hornby Clerestory Coaches

 

And you can get them in two lengths!

[Mark Dickerson]

Perhaps Hornby should consider making a retooled or 8-compartment all-third for the Railroad range?

[Dunsignalling]

19 minutes ago, Hroth said:

 

And you can get them in two lengths!

Though there is no relief to the panelling on the long ones, it's just printed.

 

A problem for hackers but possibly an opening for Hornby to offer different styles to suit other liveries. Add the option of a non-clerestory roof, and Bob's your generic uncle.

 

John

Edited October 19, 2019 by Dunsignalling

[melmerby]

13 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Though there is no relief to the panelling on the long ones

 

John

Just like many in later days when the beading had gone.

[Compound2632]

8 hours ago, PatB said:

Although my interest in these is somewhat academic at the moment, I see the train length issue a little differently. Although, to be truly prototypical, a train may require a lot of non-bogie vehicles, to create a pleasing impression I would not expect to need so many. For example, a suburban train for a short Minories would, IMHO, look perfectly OK if made up of a pair of brake 3rds, a pair of composites and an all 3rd. The viewer sees a 5 coach train - reasonable, if not excessive - but the space occupied is equivalent to 3 bogies or less. Very handy for the space starved and a perennial justification for going pre-Grouping. 

 

I was looking recently at S&DJR trains c. 1900. A standard rake of 6-wheelers for ordinary passenger trains seemed to be full brake / third / 4-compt first or composite / third / full brake - about 170 ft, or just under the length of one of the three coach ex-LSWR sets used from the 30s onwards.

 

2 hours ago, Hroth said:

It's been said that the RTR market for anything Grouping and onwards has been more or less saturated

 

... presumably by folk who haven't noticed, taking LMS examples, the lack of a wide range of Period 1 carriages and the rather mixed bag of Period 3 carriages - no pre-war 60 ft carriages apart from the elderly Airfix / Dapol composite, or the D1666/D1667 five-plank open, of which over 54,000 were built - the most numerous company design of wagon to be built in the grouping era and thanks to pooling, ubiquitous. Afficionados of the other groups can no doubt provide their own glaring omissions. In fact I'll stick my neck out ready for the blows of numerous sharpened axes by saying that there is no period or location of the steam railway that can be authentically represented without recourse to building rolling stock from kits.

 

1 hour ago, PhilJ W said:

The pre-group companies also had bogie coaches. I wonder if Hattons if these are successful would consider producing longer bogie coaches to match?

 

To match the general style and ethos of the 6 and 4 wheelers, I'd suggest looking at carriages on the length of a 7-compartment third - around 42 ft - 45 ft; comparable with the Triang clerestories, in fact. Vote now for the S&DJR bogie carriages on the wishlist poll!

Edited October 19, 2019 by Compound2632

[PatB]

20 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I was looking recently at S&DJR trains c. 1900. A standard rake of 6-wheelers for ordinary passenger trains seemed to be full brake / third / 4-compt first or composite / third / full brake - about 170 ft, or just under the length of one of the three coach ex-LSWR sets used from the 30s onwards.

 

 

Better still. An actual, uncompressed, prototypical formation in the length of 3 bogies. Admittedly, the later, actual, prototypical, uncompressed replacement was also 3 bogies, but I think the rake of wheelers would seem more impressive somehow.

 

My own, conjectural 5-coach formation was from thinking along the lines of suburban services where there would be less requirement for luggage space but a greater requirement to pack in the bodies. I was also assuming that trains on suburban lines would tend to be longer in reality, again to satisfy capacity requirements. That was, basically, a guess though.

[Compound2632]

11 minutes ago, PatB said:

 

My own, conjectural 5-coach formation was from thinking along the lines of suburban services where there would be less requirement for luggage space but a greater requirement to pack in the bodies. I was also assuming that trains on suburban lines would tend to be longer in reality, again to satisfy capacity requirements. That was, basically, a guess though.

 

I'd go with that. In the 1880s, the Midland built some close-coupled sets of five 6-wheel carriages for Birmingham - Walsall and Wolverhampton services, brake third / third / first / third / brake third, again about 170 ft long - 4 first and 16 third class compartments. When these sets were renewed in 1908, the new sets were made up of four 48 ft carriages, just under 200 ft long, providing 7 firsts and 20 thirds. (Those carriages are the prototypes of the well-known Ratio Bain suburbans.) For the New Street - Northfield / Kings Norton services, the 48 ft carriages were made up into 6 carriage sets, 14 firsts and 28 thirds; unfortunately I haven't yet found out how those trains were made up before 1908 - possibly bogie carriages of 1880s vintage.

Edited October 19, 2019 by Compound2632

[phil gollin]

.

 

In a sense a full scale opinion poll is taking place at the moment.  Hattons have a range (9 odd liveries ?) of pre-grouping coaches up for pre-order, they will be getting orders in and these will either be spread all over the 9-odd, or concentrated into three or four.

 

I don't know, but Hattons will and it MAY help guide them.

 

.

[phil_sutters]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I was looking recently at S&DJR trains c. 1900. A standard rake of 6-wheelers for ordinary passenger trains seemed to be full brake / third / 4-compt first or composite / third / full brake - about 170 ft, or just under the length of one of the three coach ex-LSWR sets used from the 30s onwards.

 

For those that haven't seen S&DJR stock there are some in this album - 

 

[Hal Nail]

7 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Mk3 carriages are undoubtedly the best value.

Albeit less so where they are window short!

[Compound2632]

I've found @phil_sutters's album a handy resource, for which I'm grateful, but it's a bit short on photos of the 19th century carriages. For anyone who might be interested, my topic on the subject is here:

 

 

[LNWR18901910]

On 08/10/2019 at 11:11, Hattons Dave said:

 

Today we’re excited to announce our new rolling stock project in OO Gauge, Genesis 4 & 6 wheel coaches.

 

In the mid to late 1800s, the many operating companies in the UK were 

producing their own versions of the 4 and 6 wheel coach, which introduced many features onto the railways - lighting, continuous braking and even upholstered seats for all passengers. This led to them being a very common sight. 

 

Many designs consisted of only a handful of coaches, built to fill a specific need. These would also only wear the colours of the company they were built for. A good number were absorbed at the 1923 grouping and some found new leases of life on branches that were in need of simple stock to run on them. Some were taken into departmental stock or used by sheds and depots as simple stores vans and used until the 1950s.

 

Project Genesis faithfully represents the trains of the Era 2 & 3 period and brings modellers the opportunity to run a detailed train of coaches in liveries not normally seen in ready-to-run form.

 

Product Specification

• Lit and unlit options
• Lit versions have an 18 pin digital decoder socket
• Warm yellow LEDs used on lit versions
• 6 different body toolings
• 2 fully detailed underframes
• Optional lower footboards
• Full brake rigging
• Fine detailing on panelling
• Painted interiors
• Optional semi-permanent coupling bar representing a coupling chain
• 3 types of wheels (Mansell, 3 hole and disc)
• 3 types of roof furniture (oil lamps, gas lamps, electric lights)
• Removable centre wheelset on 6 wheel coaches
• Sliding centre wheelset on 6 wheel coaches for tight curves
• Fully lined liveries to the original company specifications
• Unique running numbers between single coaches and packs
• Carefully selected running numbers to fit with companies numbering systems
• Packs of coaches to create an instant train
• RP25 wheel profile
• NEM pockets
• Minimum radius - Radius 2 (438mm)

 

Tooling Variations

• 4-wheel chassis
• 6-wheel chassis (features removable center axle and replacement framing)
• 4-wheel bodies (4 compartment, 5 compartment and brake)

• 6-wheel bodies (4 compartment lavatory, 5 compartment and brake)
• Coach ends (plain, footsteps, 4 wheel brake, 6 wheel brake)
• Roof furniture (Oil lights, gas lights, electric lights)

 

Coach Types

Using the above tooling variations we are able to produce a range of coaches. These include:

 

BT - Brake, Third Class

T - Third Class

S - Second Class

F - First Class

C12 - Composite (First and Second class)

C13 - Composite (First and Third class)

C123 - Tri-composite (First, Second & Third class)

CL - Composite Lavatory

 

Liveries

Batch 1

For our first batch we are initially releasing 7 main liveries with a mixture of coach types between each livery. These will be available from Q1 2021.

GWR - Great Western Railway - ‘Chocolate and Cream’ livery with brown lining

 

GNR - Great Northern Railway - ‘Teak’ livery with yellow and blue lining

 

LNWR - London & North Western Railway - ‘Plum and spilt milk’ fully lined

 

SECR - South Eastern & Chatham Railway - ‘Crimson Lake’ lined

 

LMS - London Midland & Scottish Railway - ‘Midland style’ crimson

 

LNER - London North Eastern Railway - ‘Pre-war brown’

 

SR - Southern Railway - ‘Maunsell Olive Green’ with yellow lining

 

British Railways - Departmental

 

Batch 2

We are also announcing plans for a second batch of coaches with further liveries which are not covered as part of Batch 1. These are available to pre-order but at this time do not have a confirmed release date. We will provide more information following the release of Batch 1 in Q1 2021.

 

GCR - Great Central Railway brown and grey

GER - Great Eastern Railway chocolate

L&Y - Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway brown and tan

MR - Midland Railway crimson

LSWR - London & South Western Railway brown and tan

BR - British Railways crimson

NCB - National Coal Board blue

 

Batch 3

We will be producing a third batch of coaches which will be available following on from the release of the first two batches but are not currently available to pre-order. Currently proposed liveries are:

 

North Eastern Railway

Caledonian Railway

Metropolitan Railway

Somerset and Dorset Joint Railway

Longmoor Military Railway

Further BR Departmental examples

 

Pricing

Coaches will be available as single items as well as packs of four. Coach numbers will be different between single coaches and those from packs.

 

Single unlit coach - £30

3 pack of unlit coaches - £85

4 pack of unlit coaches - £110

 

Single lit coach - £36

3 pack of lit coaches - £99

4 pack of lit coaches - £135

 

Availability

Delivery for Batch 1 will begin in Q1 2021. 

 

Not all models will be available at the same time but all models within a specific livery will be released at the same time.

 

For full information on the project and to read more information visit www.hattons.co.uk/genesis

 

 

 

 

 

 

Damn, this is so awesome and marvellous at the same time! I am so looking forward to these babies! Hell, I would go for the LNWR, GNR, SECR and LMS 4-packs! Because hey, I am a sucker for old tyme stuff.

[phil gollin]

3 hours ago, LNWR18901910 said:

 

"Roof furniture (Oil lights, gas lights, electric lights) ......."

 

I must admit that I had not picked up on that before.

 

I  ASSUME  that that means that there will be at least three different releases (assuming the first release sells as planned ?

 

.

 

 

[Compound2632]

15 minutes ago, phil gollin said:

"Roof furniture (Oil lights, gas lights, electric lights) ......."

 

I must admit that I had not picked up on that before.

 

I  ASSUME  that that means that there will be at least three different releases (assuming the first release sells as planned ?

 

 

Reading the announcement, the impression given is that all releases will be available with all lighting options - whether that's bespoke on ordering, I don't know. Not clear if one can choose one's lighting and brakes, or whether carriages in the livery of a particular company will only be issued with that company's braking system. Or it might have gone from all Westinghouse to all vacuum. 

[wombatofludham]

In answer to those still arguing that a detailed rake of their preferred railway's designs would be better and hang those who want a design based on the Miss Marpleshire Joint, I think you are missing a point.

Hatton's are investing serious money in this project, and I suspect they understand what will sell better than any of us.  Otherwise Widnes will be getting another vacant industrial unit sooner than any of us want.

For me, if Hatton's formation diagrams are to be believed and we are on final approach for an announcement of a LNWR Precedent to match the other feline escapee shown in the diagrams (that SECR green thingy...) I'll be very tempted to get a rake of generic LNWR coaches and a Precedent and I won't give a flying duck if they are correct or not, I'll probably be running them on the Dolgellau layout in any case for the grockles to coo at, pretending the LNWR had running rights from Corwen to Afon Wen.  It'll look nice even if the signals go the wrong way.  I suspect that there will be quite a few like me who are prepared to risk a few penalty points on their modeller's licences just to have something different.

 

 

[The White Rabbit]

I second that suspicion. When I first heard the news, I said it would have the purists spluttering but looked like a canny move on Hattons' part. Nothing I've seen or heard since has given me reason to change that opinion. And I appreciate the way they have been willing to listen to us, whether the requests for full brakes or advice and information from the better informed about coaching construction and dimensions. 

[gr.king]

A question for Hattons, rather than for other modellers who think they know what Hattons would or should say:

 

Might some unpainted versions, possibly without door handles, grab rails, roof fittings and so on (but with glazing inserts), at lowest possible price, also be considered, for those who would want to modify and customise?

[PhilJ W]

In unbuilt form as well?

[PhilJ W]

Further to that, would anyone want the chassis as a separate item for scratchbuilding?

[Compound2632]

Just now, PhilJ W said:

Further to that, would anyone want the chassis as a separate item for scratchbuilding?

 

I think that's been touched on. Ideally, there will be an equal number of people wanting to use them as grounded bodies.

[Joseph the L&YR lover]

Doubt they will just sell the chassis. Just get the less in demand stock and use it.

[Compound2632]

Roofs of gas-lit carriages. Great Western, but for once, typical.

[Compound2632]

Three-coach train of 6-wheelers - brake, composite, and third.

[Trog]

10 hours ago, phil gollin said:

.

 

In a sense a full scale opinion poll is taking place at the moment.  Hattons have a range (9 odd liveries ?) of pre-grouping coaches up for pre-order, they will be getting orders in and these will either be spread all over the 9-odd, or concentrated into three or four.

 

I don't know, but Hattons will and it MAY help guide them.

 

.

 

I should think the only thing in the results of the pre-orders that might move Hattons away from the currently intended averagely generic style to a design shifted towards one company would be if the pre-orders were very heavily skewed towards one company. If for example the orders for LNWR and LMS were over 50% of the total, with the rest spread between the others, then LNWR pattern coaches would become a good idea with the lesser companies having their livery applied on the base of an LNWR style coach. If however the orders are more evenly spread across all liveries, then generic coaches that are reasonably OK for everyone but perhaps ideal for none are a sensible compromise.