'Genesis' 4 & 6 wheel coaches in OO Gauge - New Announcement

[JohnR]

44 minutes ago, Edthefolkie said:

Since all 00 model locos sold by Hattons are more or less 4' gauge, I guess we might as well close our eyes to generic 4 wheel coaches behind them! Anyway, might encourage a bit of model bashing as in days of yore.
(NB if any newbies read this direct from watching the Great Model Railway Challenge, don't worry. All will become clear )  

On many layouts, the distance between the tracks is the most accurate thing!

[melmerby]

12 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

…….and yet the Bachmann SECR liveried birdcage coaches seemed to sell pretty well at that price point.

For twice as much coach................(or for the 6 wheelers 50% more)

If the Birdcages cost that price a fully detailed 4 or 6 wheeler could be somewhat more.

AFAIK The Hawksworth Autocoaches didn't sell well at £70 with a less of a niche market.

[Compound2632]

Coaching stock generally didn't have as long a life expectancy as locomotives. We have some pre-grouping locomotives avaiable RTR because they survived into the BR era. If you look at BR era photos, the carriages they are pulling are a generation younger - early grouping stock at the eldest. (That's a broad generalisation to which exceptions can I'm sure be found.)

 

Re. price per compartment, I saw today new Hornby 4-wheelers on sale at £18 - £6 per compartment yet again! On the same stand were good condition second-hand ones at £5; I've seen them second hand for £3 or £4. 

Edited October 21, 2019 by Compound2632
Corrected "early grouping stock at the youngest" to "eldest".

[IWCR]

There is undoubtably more interest in pre BR era  models in recent years.

Yes one reason is that the BR era has been very well covered already hence not much new to be had.

Another I believe is the time since BR steam, to remember it you have to be pushing 60 or older.

Many modellers have built BR era because its what they remember from their younger days, now to a larger percentage than before BR  is just another historical period and could loose out as a model choice to an older more varied and colourful time. The result more demand for grouping or pre grouping items.

 

Pete

[Dunsignalling]

3 hours ago, melmerby said:

 

Apart from the fact that this has been mooted several times before in gthe topic, what about the price?

I can see a detailed, quality, accurate prototype costing at least £60, probably somewhat more, whence the sales would likely be quite low and not condusive to production.

 

2 hours ago, melmerby said:

For twice as much coach................(or for the 6 wheelers 50% more)

If the Birdcages cost that price a fully detailed 4 or 6 wheeler could be somewhat more.

AFAIK The Hawksworth Autocoaches didn't sell well at £70 with a less of a niche market.

I think that a trigger for price sensitivity might be the cost of a train rather than that of individual vehicles. Possibly Bachmann think so too!

 

The default length for the Bachmann Birdcages is a 3-set, as it is with Hornby's Bulleid 59-footers, (and can be for their Maunsells, too). My (BR) birdcages came at a modest discount (£153 for the three), the Hornby Bulleid set at £135.

 

In my own case, I'm reckoning on running Hatton's 6-wheelers in a set of five, so roughly comparable both in cost and length.

 

John

Edited October 20, 2019 by Dunsignalling

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

In my own case, I'm reckoning on running Hatton's 6-wheelers in a set of five, so roughly comparable both in cost and length.

 

... and passenger accommodation (so long as your passengers don't need the loo). 

[Nick Holliday]

On 19 October 2019 at 07:54, Dunsignalling said:

 

If we consider the locos already available and announced in RTR that could plausibly haul such stock, I'd think anyone other than SECR modellers would be disappointed anyway. C, H, P and D against no more than two from any other company.

 

John

Errr???

LBSCR A1, A1X, E4, H1, H2 and E!

 

Edited October 20, 2019 by Nick Holliday
Missing numbers

[Dunsignalling]

4 minutes ago, Nick Holliday said:

Errr???

LBSCR A, A1, E4, H1, H2 and E!

 

The E isn't likely to be out for a couple of years yet and I'd suspect these would be beneath the dignity of the Atlantics.

 

Twelve-wheel Pullmans, plus a six-wheeled "Pup" would be more their mark.

 

John

Edited October 20, 2019 by Dunsignalling

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, Nick Holliday said:

Errr???

LBSCR A1, A1X, E4, H1, H2 and E!

 

 

E2 too, if you're not fussy.

 

But rather less of a balanced stud than the Chatham offerings - no 0-6-0 goods engine.

 

On the other hand, the Chatham folk can also claim the R1 0-6-0T.

Edited October 20, 2019 by Compound2632

[Dunsignalling]

1 minute ago, Compound2632 said:

 

E2 too, if you're not fussy.

Very not fussy.

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

It was all so much simpler 42 years ago when a (much) younger me sat down to read my RM with a Yorkie bar and a glass of Corona lemonade...

 

 

note that the brake coaches are 4p more expensive than the opens... shocker!

[Hroth]

44 minutes ago, Dr Gerbil-Fritters said:

It was all so much simpler 42 years ago when a (much) younger me sat down to read my RM with a Yorkie bar and a glass of Corona lemonade...

 

Ahhhh...  In those far-off days, the average modeller modelled....  averagely!

 

I like the last sentence "Again these vehicles are, strictly speaking, freelance approximations, but make most attractive models".  And why not!

 

[Denbridge]

17 hours ago, MarkSG said:

 

Particularly if the sales figures show a clear preference for some liveries over others. The ones that do sell the best will be an obvious contender to be accompanied by a more specific release.

Far more likely is that good sales will be seen as vindication of the generic policy leading to more of the genre.

[Rowsley17D]

1 hour ago, Dr Gerbil-Fritters said:

It was all so much simpler 42 years ago when a (much) younger me sat down to read my RM with a Yorkie bar and a glass of Corona lemonade...

 

A Yorkie and a Corona! It was one or the other for me!

[MarkSG]

1 hour ago, Dr Gerbil-Fritters said:

It was all so much simpler 42 years ago when a (much) younger me sat down to read my RM with a Yorkie bar and a glass of Corona lemonade...

 

 

note that the brake coaches are 4p more expensive than the opens... shocker!

 

I think some people would take issue with the assertion in that article that in N, you can get away with freelance models because "small details such as chimneys are virtually invisible at normal viewing distances".

 

But it also illustrates how far RTR has come, even at the smaller scales, since the 1970s, and how our expectations have moved along with it.

[JSpencer]

13 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

E2 too, if you're not fussy.

 

But rather less of a balanced stud than the Chatham offerings - no 0-6-0 goods engine.

 

On the other hand, the Chatham folk can also claim the R1 0-6-0T.

 

An SECR 0-4-4 R1 would be more apt with these coaches and more likely to have been seen at Chatham too. 

[gr.king]

1 hour ago, Denbridge said:

Far more likely is that good sales will be seen as vindication of the generic policy leading to more of the genre.

Of course they may not get the sales they want if they try to extend the provision of generic models into other categories.

 

I'll only consider buying the generic 6 wheelers if they are sufficiently adaptable and inexpensive to be used a basis for modification and refinement into something acceptably close to a non-LSWR, non-GWR, non-Midland, non-North Eastern prototype.

 

 

[Dunsignalling]

20 hours ago, johnofwessex said:

Of course if these sell well, in particular if certain liveries do very well, that might in turn stimulate the production of models based on a prototype...............

A chicken and egg situation, perhaps, but I think Hatton's have their timing pretty much spot-on.

 

My own thoughts are that the availability of acceptably plausible coaches in a number of liveries is most likely, at least in the short term, to stimulate Hatton's and others to develop suitable (authentic) locomotives to pull them. Over the next couple of years, we can expect the Brighton E1, the Chatham D and the NER G5 for starters, and I fully expect somebody to latch on to at least one LNWR prototype fairly soon.

 

A high proportion of r-t-r buyers are heavily "loco-centric" and will be reluctant to buy coaches in substantial numbers until their primary desires are met (or at least promised). That, I consider, will be the real trigger for the announcement of pre-group coaches based on real prototypes. 

 

 

John 

Edited October 21, 2019 by Dunsignalling

[Compound2632]

53 minutes ago, gr.king said:

sufficiently adaptable and inexpensive to be used a basis for modification and refinement into something acceptably close to a non-LSWR, non-GWR, non-Midland, non-North Eastern prototype.

 

 

Although, of course, those are the prototypes they will be closest too (also LBSC), unless there is a radical change in the proposed style of panelling. 

[Ravenser]

On 20/10/2019 at 11:22, Jol Wilkinson said:

I share the view that these Generic pre-group 4 and 6 wheel carriages will meet a need for those that have bought a pre-group loco and want something to run behind it that is more typical of the era. For those like me that prefer to model a pre-group railway with reasonable accuracy (the LNWR in my case), these don't meet my needs. However, I recognise that Hattons have seen a profitable market opportunity but don't see this range of models doing anything to expand pre group modelling to any degree.

 

Why? Because the reason often quoted for people not having any pre-group coaches (or wagons for that matter) is because they don't want to build kits and couldn't paint the pre-group liveries if they did. So they aren't likely to start modelling the pre-group era unless other RTR models become available and, as this thread would appear to indicate, that isn't very likely as the market for specific, models based on prototypes of a particular railway isn't viable.

 

 

The SECR could now be done. Either you live with an out of period (but right company) dancehall brake van , or you build a plastic kit for an SECR-equivalent MR van . That's a vastly lower degree of difficulty than building a fleet of etched brass coaches finished in LNWR livery to a decent standard..

 

A South London steam SECR/LBSCR suburban operation also becomes possible. That accounts for a lot of the pretty pre-grouping liveried locos that have been produced

 

Otherwise - the GN isn't on for layout purposes, the GE is still a buckjumper and a Gobbler short, Ratio kits have long facilitated MR layouts anyway, I don't think this announcement makes much difference  to the GCR.

 

The NER might be helped, and perhaps the Scottish companies. What is the situation for the H&BR - which I think barely got into bogie coaches? (though locos aren't available)

 

One other niche is those folk who want a vintage coach in departmental service on a 1950s layout . Yes, the Ratio GW 4-wheelers can be used Ratio coach as departmental  - the prototype reference shot was an Oswestry allocated vehicle photographed in 1958 - but it is a little bit of a strain to justify them outside the WR. A 6-wheeler would be much more credible for the ER/NEReg/ SCR or even the LMR. Given the things that get pressed into service in such a role at present (eg black-painted Triang clerestories) I don't see a "generic" 6 wheeler being viewed as unacceptable in that niche market

 

(my reference was a Cheona book - these two vehicles are from Paul Barlett's site - different types but even later... 4 wheel GW brake - departmental  GW 4 wheel all 3rd - departmental  GW older 4 wheel compo - departmentall  )  Other examples  SECR birdcage 6 wheel brake  GE 6 wheeler - departmental GC?? 6 wheeler - Immingham ex M&GN 6 wheel brake   ex MR 6 wheeler  ex MR 6 wheeler full brake

 

If someone does Hardwicke, I'll buy it - but it will be pulling 2 x blue/grey Mk1s (as I don't have room to accommodate the prototypical formation of  3 x  b/g Mk1s)

Edited October 21, 2019 by Ravenser
P Bartlett examples

[JSpencer]

1 hour ago, Ravenser said:

The SECR could now be done. Either you live with an out of period (but right company) dancehall brake van , or you build a plastic kit for an SECR-equivalent MR van . That's a vastly lower degree of difficulty than building a fleet of etched brass coaches finished in LNWR livery to a decent standard..

 

(my reference was a Cheona book - these two vehicles are from Paul Barlett's site - different types but even later... 4 wheel GW brake - departmental  GW 4 wheel all 3rd - departmental  GW older 4 wheel compo - departmentall  )  Other examples  SECR birdcage 6 wheel brake  GE 6 wheeler - departmental GC?? 6 wheeler - Immingham ex M&GN 6 wheel brake   ex MR 6 wheeler  ex MR 6 wheeler full brake

 

 

 

The example of the SECR birdcage 6 wheel full brake (  SECR birdcage 6 wheel brake ) is so typical in many pre-grouping SECR train photos. But I guess if Hattons do a generic full brake, it will be without a birdcage roof, unless proof comes along that the birdcage feature was common elsewhere too and it would fit other liveries ok.

I can live with the generic style of many of these vehicles in SECR livery, but a full brake without a bird cage would stand out as wrong to me (the main roof height of these vehicles was about 8 inches shorter too, so it would not be easy to convert a non birdcage full brake into a birdcage one).  

[Ravenser]

52 minutes ago, JSpencer said:

 

The example of the SECR birdcage 6 wheel full brake (  SECR birdcage 6 wheel brake ) is so typical in many pre-grouping SECR train photos. But I guess if Hattons do a generic full brake, it will be without a birdcage roof, unless proof comes along that the birdcage feature was common elsewhere too and it would fit other liveries ok.

I can live with the generic style of many of these vehicles in SECR livery, but a full brake without a bird cage would stand out as wrong to me (the main roof height of these vehicles was about 8 inches shorter too, so it would not be easy to convert a non birdcage full brake into a birdcage one).  

 

How late did these SECR brakes survive in parcels traffic?  (1941 is quoted as conversion date for that vehicle). And how does their length compare with the 32' of the Hattons vehicles?

 

remembering the Rails 3D printed SECR van , could this be one "authentic" body that might become viable if SECR layouts start to appear?  You'd only need to do one vehicle 

Edited October 21, 2019 by Ravenser

[Jammy2305]

2 hours ago, Ravenser said:

"...the GE is still a buckjumper and a Gobbler short..."

 

The GE is very short given the only GER loco produced is Oxford Rails K85 (LNER N7).

As nice as Hornby's GE section range is, the B12 and D16 are Gresley rebuilds and the J15, whilst having the potential to be modelled as a GER Y14, has never been released as such. Equally, Model Rail/Rapido's J70 was never offered in original C53 form. 

 

- James

[Wickham Green]

1 hour ago, Ravenser said:

 

How late did these SECR brakes survive in parcels traffic?  (1941 is quoted as conversion date for that vehicle). And how does their length compare with the 32' of the Hattons vehicles?

 

remembering the Rails 3D printed SECR van , could this be one "authentic" body that might become viable if SECR layouts start to appear?  You'd only need to do one vehicle 

The one on the Derwent Valley Light Railway survived in traffic until 1967 ........... though the Southern had converted it for ARP use much earlier : Most pre-grouping Southern Passenger brakes disappeared with the coming of the 'Van B' introduced just before the war.

[Ravenser]

31 minutes ago, Wickham Green said:

The one on the Derwent Valley Light Railway survived in traffic until 1967 ........... though the Southern had converted it for ARP use much earlier : Most pre-grouping Southern Passenger brakes disappeared with the coming of the 'Van B' introduced just before the war.

 

 

Excellent. I'm seeing a 1970s light railway layout - DVLR running Hardwicke and 3 x blue/grey Mk1s on tourist service (I think they hired it from the NRM for a few months) , an SECR birdcage brake hauled by an 03 diesel shunter as brake behind a bauxite Vanwide and some rusty 16 tonners. A little bit of modeller's licence , but no worse than most light railway layouts

Edited October 21, 2019 by Ravenser