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'Genesis' 4 & 6 wheel coaches in OO Gauge - New Announcement


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33 minutes ago, Wickham Green said:

The one on the Derwent Valley Light Railway survived in traffic until 1967 ........... though the Southern had converted it for ARP use much earlier : Most pre-grouping Southern Passenger brakes disappeared with the coming of the 'Van B' introduced just before the war.

I'm pretty certain this is the same vehicle that survives, though not yet restored, at the Bluebell Railway.

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2 hours ago, jamesC37LG said:

 

The GE is very short given the only GER loco produced is Oxford Rails K85 (LNER N7).

As nice as Hornby's GE section range is, the B12 and D16 are Gresley rebuilds and the J15, whilst having the potential to be modelled as a GER Y14, has never been released as such. Equally, Model Rail/Rapido's J70 was never offered in original C53 form. 

 

- James

 

Even the L77/K85 is only a Great Eastern engine by a whisker, with the bulk of the class built post-grouping. The T26 is another large class - 100 built - with survivors to BR -18 - and a preserved example: a very characteristic engine, ideally suited to haunting some East Anglian byway along with a few antique GER 6-wheelers...

 

 

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2 hours ago, jamesC37LG said:

 

The GE is very short given the only GER loco produced is Oxford Rails K85 (LNER N7).

As nice as Hornby's GE section range is, the B12 and D16 are Gresley rebuilds and the J15, whilst having the potential to be modelled as a GER Y14, has never been released as such. Equally, Model Rail/Rapido's J70 was never offered in original C53 form. 

 

- James

 

Very short-sighted of Hornby not to make the J15 and Claud back-datable. They stuffed LSW fans in a similar way slightly earlier.

 

The market has matured since then and I would be reasonably confident that were anyone now to produce an E4, they'd tool for the GER T26 condition too.

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17 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Even the L77/K85 is only a Great Eastern engine by a whisker, with the bulk of the class built post-grouping. The T26 is another large class - 100 built - with survivors to BR -18 - and a preserved example: a very characteristic engine, ideally suited to haunting some East Anglian byway along with a few antique GER 6-wheelers...

 

The T26/E4 is on the wishlist poll. I've already voted for it! 

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3 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

Very short-sighted of Hornby not to make the J15 and Claud back-datable. They stuffed LSW fans in a similar way slightly earlier.

 

The market has matured since then and I would be reasonably confident that were anyone now to produce an E4, they'd tool for the GER T26 condition too.

 

I believe the Claud would have been difficult to justify given how different they were pre-rebuild (same as the S69/B12).

 

The J15 however is something they could very easily have done and, thankfully, rectifiable as we've discussed elsewhere.

 

I do believe if a T26/E4 is done then we will, at the very least, see No.490 modelled in GER condition as it is a National Collection loco.

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19 hours ago, Ravenser said:

 

How late did these SECR brakes survive in parcels traffic?  (1941 is quoted as conversion date for that vehicle). And how does their length compare with the 32' of the Hattons vehicles?

 

remembering the Rails 3D printed SECR van , could this be one "authentic" body that might become viable if SECR layouts start to appear?  You'd only need to do one vehicle 

 

The preserved vehicle is 32ft long so I guess a Hattons 6 wheel chassis will make a good underframe. Hmmm.... maybe a 3D print for the body. I'd need a at least a couple to do typical small SECR train.

 

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For that sort of vehicle, wouldn't a card or plasticard body, with a "doily" cut on a a laser cutter, or even one of those software-controlled stencil cutters (not sure that would cope with the curves), be a far easier job than trying to sand-off a load of little ridges?

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9 minutes ago, JSpencer said:

 

The preserved vehicle is 32ft long so I guess a Hattons 6 wheel chassis will make a good underframe. 

 

 

From the Bartlett photo, I get the definite impression that the wheelbase of that SECR brake van is rather less than the 10'6" + 10'6" proposed by Hattons.

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1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

From the Bartlett photo, I get the definite impression that the wheelbase of that SECR brake van is rather less than the 10'6" + 10'6" proposed by Hattons.

That's another thing to consider ...... with all this talk of typical panelling and typical guard's compartments - has anyone analysed typical wheelbases ? ( 4w & 6w )

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4 hours ago, Wickham Green said:

That's another thing to consider ...... with all this talk of typical panelling and typical guard's compartments - has anyone analysed typical wheelbases ? ( 4w & 6w )

 

Some are included in the data table I posted last week - but only for carriages in this panelling style. 

 

On 17/10/2019 at 21:54, Compound2632 said:

With the kind assistance of @Edwardian, @Miss Prism, @uax6, @corneliuslundie, and @Nick Holliday, I have drawn up a comparative table of the leading dimensions and the panelling dimensions of a variety of late 19th century 6-wheel and 4-wheel carriages, attached here. Wherever possible I have used written dimensions from official drawings or from drawings known to be based on official drawings; for some dimensions I have scaled from drawings. I have included examples from three of the pre-Grouping "big four", the Midland, North Eastern, and Great Western, and also examples from a couple of smaller lines, the Cambrian and Rhymney Railways - for which particularly good drawings are available, thanks to Mike Lloyd and the Welsh Railways Research Circle. I have also included several examples at different dates from the two southern lines that used the style of panelling in question, the Brighton and the South Western.

 

6 wheel carriage dimensions.pdf 598.2 kB · 32 downloads

 

 

For carriages not in this style, some more 6-wheelers include:

 

LNWR 30'1" stock: 20'0"

Highland 34'8" full brake: 23'0"

M&GN ex-GNR 31'9" third: 22'0"

M&GN ex-GNR 32'6" composite: 23'0"

M&GN ex-GNR 28'6" full brake: 19'9"

M&GN ex-E&M 31'0" "large stock" 6-compt third: 17'6"

[These M&GN examples are scaled from rather small drawings that have only a length scale not marked dimension, so accurate to no better than 3", in N.J.L. Digby, A Guide to the Midland & Gt. Northern Joint Railway (Ian Allan, 1993)].

The Midland scaled the wheelbase to the carriage length. The vast majority of its 6-wheelers were 31'0" long with 21'0" wheelbase but the 30'0" first built for close coupled sets had 20'0" wheelbase and the various slips and saloons built 32'0" long had 22'0" wheelbase.

 

For 4-wheelers:

Midland 27'0" carriages for London close-coupled sets, built 1884: 15'0"

Midland 25'0" full brakes, fruit vans, etc, built 1875-1894: 16'0"

LNWR 28'0" carriages for Mansion House close-coupled sets, built 1890-1: 18'0"

LNWR 28'0" carriages for Birmingham and Abergavenny close-coupled sets, built 1894-1900: 17'0"

 

Edited by Compound2632
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Compound,

 

Your big comparative table is very, very good indeed, thank you.

 

Its certainly convinced me that with my dodgy eyesight any difference between these and the LBSCR one that I like will be immaterial.

 

The only trouble is, I think, that the coaches concerned got glued together and put on bogie underframes fairly swiftly, in the 1910s I think.

 

Kevin

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2 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Its certainly convinced me that with my dodgy eyesight any difference between these and the LBSCR one that I like will be immaterial.

 

 

What we don't know at present is whether the information supplied by me and/or others will result in any significant changes to the models to make them more "typical" (in my view). We have only been shown some fairly basic sketches (although nicely coloured in in the original announcement) which leads me to suppose that money has not yet been invested in serious CAD work; that leads me to suppose that extensive revision is possible at this stage. Of course, it's perfectly possible that Hattons' design work is in fact much further progressed, just they're not publishing it at this stage. We simply don't know.

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24 minutes ago, Wickham Green said:

The ride in the end compartment of those must have been a bit lively !

 

Quite so! But I'm not sure there was that much hard running on the Joint. Compare the Ackermann lithographs of L&MR carriages:

 

666860304_Ackermann1831passengerextract.jpg.cb2071126eaeb0fb4dd2168241e52e39.jpg

Edited by Compound2632
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So, having established that the 6W coaches are likely to bear a very close resemblance to late C19th LBSCR ones, and might do nicely for a "quickie" light-railway-worked-from-the-outset-by-the-LBSCR-inspired-by-a-real-one-for-which-I-have-a-copy-of-the-draft-LRO project, which I've been boiling for a while, I was forcibly reminded that they seem not to intend to sell Brighton livery ones.

 

"Oh, that is just the teeniest bit disappointing." Says I.

 

Well, some words very roughly like that.

 

Why? 

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25 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

So, having established that the 6W coaches are likely to bear a very close resemblance to late C19th LBSCR ones, and might do nicely for a "quickie" light-railway-worked-from-the-outset-by-the-LBSCR-inspired-by-a-real-one-for-which-I-have-a-copy-of-the-draft-LRO project, which I've been boiling for a while, I was forcibly reminded that they seem not to intend to sell Brighton livery ones.

 

"Oh, that is just the teeniest bit disappointing." Says I.

 

Well, some words very roughly like that.

 

Why? 

 

The situation isn't entirely clear and I doubt will become any clearer until we hear more from Hattons; possibly not even then.

 

One might wonder why, if Hattons' initial design work has drawn on on LBSCR prototypes (as would appear to be the case), they haven't gone the whole hog and make them out-and-out models of LBSCR vehicles; they would be no more and no less fictional in any other company's livery than purely freelance carriages.

 

There seems to be some speculation that another manufacturer is shortly to announce LBSCR carriages. If that is the case, then one might suppose an alternative strategy might be for Hattons to make accurate models of the carriages of some other company; these would be no more and no less fictional in any other company's livery than purely freelance carriages.

 

Thirdly, Hattons might make purely freelance models, that would be fictional in any company's livery.

 

There have been advocates and opponents of all three strategies, which has resulted in some lively debate. After some initial doubts, I've stuck to just trying to provide relevant data that I think will help if what Hattons want to do is to produce models that are at least representative of typical carriage-building practice of the late 19th century.

Edited by Compound2632
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Nothroader,

 

Yes, I do understand that they will be very small indeed, and plastic, so a bit of a departure from my main stream.

 

But, a vest-pocket LR terminus is an easy thing to find room for, and would be quick to build, and I've always fancied doing a LR in its brand new, pristine state, rather than the usual "decrepit and weed-grown" late-thirties look.

 

Compound

 

Yes, I've read, and briefly added fuel, to the arguments.

 

A fourth possibility struck me earlier today. How about a Hattons-Rails tie-up, resulting in a train-pack consisting of a nice brown Terrier and a rake of coaches? I know they are supposed to be rivals, but rivals often bury hatchets when both will benefit. So, I bet on the LBSCR version magically appearing via that route.

 

Kevin

 

 

 

 

Edited by Nearholmer
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3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I've stuck to just trying to provide relevant data that I think will help if what Hattons want to do is to produce models that are at least representative of typical carriage-building practice of the late 19th century.

 

I've become morbidly fascinated with this thread, I keep thinking "no more posts" but the same things keep going round and round!  Anyhow, I think you've hit the nail on the head, rather than select the product of one individual company, Hattons would like to produce something that is "at least representative of typical carriage-building practice of the late 19th century", and with the constructive suggestions from you and others, I think they're well on target with that.  We'll only know when they show the engineering prototypes.

 

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2 minutes ago, Hroth said:

 

I've become morbidly fascinated with this thread, I keep thinking "no more posts" but the same things keep going round and round!  Anyhow, I think you've hit the nail on the head, rather than select the product of one individual company, Hattons would like to produce something that is "at least representative of typical carriage-building practice of the late 19th century", and with the constructive suggestions from you and others, I think they're well on target with that.  We'll only know when they show the engineering prototypes.

 

 

Perhaps "I think Hattons ought to try to..." would be closer to the truth. At the moment we don't really know what their thinking is. After 40 pages of this, quite possibly laughing all the way to the bank!

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I think this is a game-changer. Let's face it, railways like the L&Y and the GC are unlikely to ever get accurate models of their coaching stock, and given sales of the Bachmann Birdcages have been rather sluggish (partly, I think, because they are the "wrong" era for all those lovely Wainwright locos), I wouldn't bet on the bigger, more popular pre-grouping companies getting any either. I've drifted off in to modelling US prototype but I've given serious consideration to planning a new layout after this announcement. It helps that they are quite a bit cheaper than some of Hornby and Bachmann's latest offerings. This really opens up the pre-grouping and early grouping era (1923-30) as a practical possibility, and let's face it, there are very few people alive today who can tell you that they're not exactly right. I'd much rather they kept them generic rather than making them as exact models of say, LSBCR coaches, and only making them in that livery (although it is odd that the LBSCR isn't on the list!).

 

Generic brake vans next? We need something to run with all those pretty PO wagons...

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21 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

So, having established that the 6W coaches are likely to bear a very close resemblance to late C19th LBSCR ones, and might do nicely for a "quickie" light-railway-worked-from-the-outset-by-the-LBSCR-inspired-by-a-real-one-for-which-I-have-a-copy-of-the-draft-LRO project, which I've been boiling for a while, I was forcibly reminded that they seem not to intend to sell Brighton livery ones.

 

"Oh, that is just the teeniest bit disappointing." Says I.

 

Well, some words very roughly like that.

 

Why? 

 

One theory is that Dapol may be planning to scale down their planned O Gauge LBSC coaches.

 

Another, and this is purely my own speculation, is that with Bachmann getting the Thomas licence, they will likely release the Brighton-based Red Coaches in the UK. Granted, they won't be as detailed as the Hattons offerings, nor will they be in LBSC livery.

 

Smallbrook Studios also produce a fairly easy-to-assemble set of LBSC coach kits.

 

If a manufacturer did decide to make specific pre-Grouping coaches, I could see LBSC 4-wheelers being a good shout. They have a long life if you include IOW service and there are two Brighton engines out that could pull them (three if you count the E2, four if you include the upcoming E1).

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4 minutes ago, HonestTom said:

 

One theory is that Dapol may be planning to scale down their planned O Gauge LBSC coaches.

 

That would be most excellent. I find myself lukewarm at the prospect of generic coaches, even though attention to pre-grouping stock is welcome. Models of actual coaches would be more to my taste. As usual, just my own opinion.

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If Dapol were to do that, in particular if they were to release any in SR Livery, then it would be interesting to compare sales of Hattons' SR-Livered four wheelers and Dapol's ex-LBSCR Stroudleys in SR livery.

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