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'Genesis' 4 & 6 wheel coaches in OO Gauge - New Announcement


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2 minutes ago, JSpencer said:

 

It never ceases to amaze me how many small makers do not have an online presence. But equally it could be an old school thing where they are great crafts people, making stuff with their hands but have little interest in doing online stuff.

I agree they would get more get more sales though (speaking as someone who sometimes finds trying to contact certain excellent cottage industry producers, a little frustrating).  

 

Could be they are getting as much work as they want without doing so?

 

John

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17 minutes ago, JSpencer said:

 

It never ceases to amaze me how many small makers do not have an online presence. But equally it could be an old school thing where they are great crafts people, making stuff with their hands but have little interest in doing online stuff.

I agree they would get more get more sales though (speaking as someone who sometimes finds trying to contact certain excellent cottage industry producers, a little frustrating).  

 

Actually, Roxey Mouldings has a pretty decent site, and I've found Dave to be extremely helpful over email.

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2 hours ago, Nick Holliday said:

A little bit unfair on Roxey Mouldings and Branchlines, who between them have produced brass kits for LBSCR, LSWR and SECR stock for at least twenty years, if not longer. There is some further support for the LBSC from EBM, but it is a pity that Branchlines has, currently, no on-line presence to make the range more widely known. 5&9 also have a range of mainly LBSC four wheeled carriages in their range, but I am not sure of their availability. 

 

@Nick Holliday, I stand corrected. I hadn't thought of Roxey because most of their 4 mm range is LSWR bogie carriages, but re-visiting their website I note LSWR 6-wheelers under the Southwark Bridge name, along with sets of both LCDR and LBSCR 4-wheelers and a couple of Stroudley 6-wheelers under their own name. Likewise, from the 2013 Branchlines leaflet I have, he does a couple of SER 6-wheelers, along with LCDR and SECR full brakes and some LBSCR 32 ft 6-wheelers. There was a set of SER 27 ft 4-wheelers but that has been discontinued for some time. He will be at the NEC this weekend.

 

The scale and line societies have a role in making the products of these smaller manufacturers such as Branchlines better known. Many have product listings for modellers on their websites, though these are usually well-populated with frustrating NLAs.

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23 hours ago, nswgr1855 said:

 

No doubt they are close enough to some  4 and 6 wheeler coaches for a couple of companies.

Unfortunately they are diabolically inaccurate for the GNR 4 and 6 wheel prototypes that I have seen photographs of. I'm not talking about a few inches or a rivet or 2 missing, but a totally different roof and paneling type. The roof is easily seen as inaccurate from 2m away.

I would also suggest a semi elliptical roof would be more accurate for GWR and NB prototypes as well.  

 

Terry Flynn.

 

GN non-bogie stock generally had visibly pretty flat roofs. They were quite visibly different from GWR and NBR  stock. The GN was a big user of 6 wheel stock, some of which survived as late as 1938. The GW didn't like 6 wheelers and had almost entirely 4 wheelers. GN 6 wheelers seem frequently not to have been 32'  long

 

We had effectively established that these vehicles won't really do for the LNWR and one or two small allies who aped its coach style ( very different panelling style and many vehicles to 30'1" length)  and for the GNR , on roof profile side panel style and length. For the LNWR your only real approach would be to use the Hattons coaches as donors and apply etched sides for 32' stock - if you can source them

 

They might well pass for some types of GE or GW  or SECR coaches, they are getting close for MSLR, and some Midland and NER , and they appear to be pretty close to LBSCR stock. The 6 wheel full brake appears to be a dead-ringer for a GSWR full brake 

 

Since there are quite a few SECR and LBSCR locos available RTR, the Hattons coaches will suit quite a few people

 

If you want good accurate GNR stock this may be a better route

 

Laser cut GNR coach bodies

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13 hours ago, nswgr1855 said:

From the evidence supplied the proposed models are not accurate enough for coaches with non simple arch roofs, as the different roof shapes are easily observed from a distance. Yes it will cost more in tooling to do 3 roof shapes, but if Hattons decide to do this I am sure the market is big enough, even if the price is increased to cover the extra cost.

 

Terry Flynn.

 

 

 

The market  for pre WW1 GNR is pretty small . The market for pre-group LNWR is a little bigger, and the market for pre-group MR bigger still - but they already have 2 sets of Ratio plastic kits for bogie stock

 

There were almost 30 "mainline" railways in Britain prior to 1912 , plus minor/light railways. The GNR ranked about 5 or 6 (and in terms of passenger traffic a little lower, behind the GE and LSWR)

 

Pre-grouping era is under 10% of the hobby , and has historically been the province of the committed scratchbuilder and skilled kitbuilder . There is effectively 1 RTR GNR loco available (the 8' single) . We are talking about small fractions of small fractions here.

 

These Hattons coaches are aimed at the casual purchaser - who has casually purchased a RTR loco in a pretty pre-grouping livery and has nothing even vaguely suitable to put behind it. However they will also provide a near(ish) representation of coaches from a number of pre-grouping companies. The LNWR and GN are the obvious exceptions....

 

 

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Just now, Miss Prism said:

 

The GWR had about 1300 6-wheelers.

 

 

 

How many of the standard gauge 6 wheelers were rebuilt to 4 wheelers?

 

My outsider's impression is that 6 wheelers had more or less vanished from the GW by WW1 , whereas the Southern Area of the LNER still had about 1500 of them in the mid 1930s . I'm open to correction by GW experts

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11 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

How many of the standard gauge 6 wheelers were rebuilt to 4 wheelers?

 

Dunno offhand. Info on Penrhos coaches

 

Quote

My outsider's impression is that 6 wheelers had more or less vanished from the GW by WW1.

 

Mostly. A few sets clung on in the Birmingham district until the mid-1920s:

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrhs1947.htm
https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrhs1944.htm

 

and individual 6-wheel vehicles probably survived in various places up to that approximate era.

 

The 6-wheel saloons and PBVs lasted a bit longer.

 

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33 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

 

GN non-bogie stock generally had visibly pretty flat roofs. They were quite visibly different from GWR and NBR  stock. The GN was a big user of 6 wheel stock, some of which survived as late as 1938. The GW didn't like 6 wheelers and had almost entirely 4 wheelers. GN 6 wheelers seem frequently not to have been 32'  long

 

We had effectively established that these vehicles won't really do for the LNWR and one or two small allies who aped its coach style ( very different panelling style and many vehicles to 30'1" length)  and for the GNR , on roof profile side panel style and length. For the LNWR your only real approach would be to use the Hattons coaches as donors and apply etched sides for 32' stock - if you can source them

 

They might well pass for some types of GE or GW  or SECR coaches, they are getting close for MSLR, and some Midland and NER , and they appear to be pretty close to LBSCR stock. The 6 wheel full brake appears to be a dead-ringer for a GSWR full brake 

 

Since there are quite a few SECR and LBSCR locos available RTR, the Hattons coaches will suit quite a few people

 

If you want good accurate GNR stock this may be a better route

 

Laser cut GNR coach bodies

 

I used the semi elliptical description to describe the GNR roof style to distinguish it from the simple cured roof Hattons will be doing. Yes the GNR roof is fairly flat on top but is made of of more than one curve, and noticeably different to the simple curve variety. I personally would be happy to use the generic wagon if it has the correct roof profile, the paint job should give the illusion of correct paneling. If Hattons does 3 roof profiles, then at least most of the range would look right from a distance.  

 

Terry Flynn.

 

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46 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

There is effectively 1 RTR GNR loco available (the 8' single) . We are talking about small fractions of small fractions here.

 

These Hattons coaches are aimed at the casual purchaser - who has casually purchased a RTR loco in a pretty pre-grouping livery and has nothing even vaguely suitable to put behind it. However they will also provide a near(ish) representation of coaches from a number of pre-grouping companies. The LNWR and GN are the obvious exceptions....

 

 

 

There is a GNR atlantic RTR from Bachman and Hornby also did a RTR GNR N2 , so the market for GNR is there. Do a GNR roof and you have a  near enough solution for a 7 car train behind my Stirling.

 

Terry Flynn.

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7 minutes ago, nswgr1855 said:

 

Do a GNR roof and you have a  near enough solution for a 7 car train behind my Stirling.

 

 

Hardly. The panelling is way, way off. There's not much mileage in trying to make something that doesn't look at all like a GNR carriage into something that still doesn't look like a GNR carriage. Far better to take it on its own terms.

 

There might be an argument for making the liveries generic too - green ones, red ones, blue ones, brown ones, varnished wood ones - without company branding.

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1 hour ago, truffy said:

Actually, Roxey Mouldings has a pretty decent site, and I've found Dave to be extremely helpful over email.

 

Indeed. My statement was referring to some but clearly I would not tar them all with the same brush. Even some with online presence take quite some chasing while others have excellent outstanding service.

 

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

Could be they are getting as much work as they want without doing so?

 

John

 

I sincerely hope that is true. And indeed, if overworked, this offers them an opportunity to increase prices a little. These goods do often take quite an effort to create them and are often well worth the money asked.

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As others have suggested throughout this thread, it would be better for Hatton's to model some

accurate prototypes, in accurate liveries and then use the same tooling to cover other companies

liveries. At least we could then have some welcome, accurate, 4 &6 wheelers rather than some ' nearly '

models for everyone.

I would expect those that take up pages on RM WEB criticising minor inaccuracies on various RTR

locomotives, to avoid ' generic ' model coaches at all cost. But I'll bet some will be quite happy with them!.

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16 minutes ago, trevor7598 said:

As others have suggested throughout this thread, it would be better for Hatton's to model some

accurate prototypes, in accurate liveries and then use the same tooling to cover other companies

liveries. At least we could then have some welcome, accurate, 4 &6 wheelers rather than some ' nearly '

models for everyone.

I would expect those that take up pages on RM WEB criticising minor inaccuracies on various RTR

locomotives, to avoid ' generic ' model coaches at all cost. But I'll bet some will be quite happy with them!.

I beg to differ...

 

"Generic" coaches done up in SECR, LSWR or LBSCR (or for that matter SR or BR), I can live with as "early" coaches on a layout set much later.   "Genuine" pre-grouping company coach designs done up in liveries they never carried would feel "more wrong" to me. 

 

Sure, those who model whichever railway(s) designs were selected would be happy (but would probably still note any minor inaccuracies), but I don't think they would sell well to many other people.  There's a difference between "a well researched and thought out work of fiction" and "downright historically inaccurate"

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1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Hardly. The panelling is way, way off. There's not much mileage in trying to make something that doesn't look at all like a GNR carriage into something that still doesn't look like a GNR carriage. Far better to take it on its own terms.

 

 

Very much agreed. The panelling is so much further adrift from GNR style than it would be for quite a lot of other companies, that a roof of the right shape doesn't even make the coaches vaguely like a GN vehicle. For the less pedantic among us however, the panelling will at least pass a casual inspection of fitness for purpose for some other companies. Unless one is extremely inobservant, or devoid of a large part of one's eyesight, the only way to pass these vehicles off as a reasonable train behind a Stirling Single or Ivatt Atlantic is to portray a through service or excursion made up of stock from other companies (or other areas of the LNER for a post-grouping Atlanic hauled train).

Edited by gr.king
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1 hour ago, 3rd Rail Exile said:

I beg to differ...

 

"Generic" coaches done up in SECR, LSWR or LBSCR (or for that matter SR or BR), I can live with as "early" coaches on a layout set much later.   "Genuine" pre-grouping company coach designs done up in liveries they never carried would feel "more wrong" to me. 

So what if one of these 'generic' coaches - having undergone sixty-odd pages of tweaking to make it more plausible - ends up uncomfortably close to something that actually existed on some railway or other ? - would you boycott it in any other livery ?

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16 minutes ago, Wickham Green said:

So what if one of these 'generic' coaches - having undergone sixty-odd pages of tweaking to make it more plausible - ends up uncomfortably close to something that actually existed on some railway or other ? - would you boycott it in any other livery ?

"Ends up uncomfortably close" is OK (the tweaking to make it more plausible is all to the good) - it's still a well thought out and researched generic coach. 

 

A model actually purporting to be of a particular prototype, carrying a livery that the prototype didn't and wasn't ever remotely likely to - that's an entirely different matter (to me at least)...

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4 hours ago, nswgr1855 said:

 

There is a GNR atlantic RTR from Bachman and Hornby also did a RTR GNR N2 , so the market for GNR is there. Do a GNR roof and you have a  near enough solution for a 7 car train behind my Stirling.

 

Terry Flynn.

 

For the record , the GNR N2 dates from 1921 . It was a suburban tank , pulling clapped-out 4 wheelers close-coupled for a couple of years (one of the LNER's major capital investments in the mid 1920s was complete replacement of the GE and GN suburban fleets with Quad-Artic and Quint-Artic sets) .  Most N2s were built after the Grouping

 

You can't run it with a Stirling Single - Gresley scrapped the GN's last singles in 1918 in one fell swoop (they'd been used for the faster trains on the E Lincolnshire line - which was flat as a pancake and straight as an arrow). The Stirling 8' singles went earlier still . Ivatt moved rapidly away from 6 wheelers when he took over - for a C1 Atlantic you need Howldon bogie stock (Mousa Models did some kits, resin cast, in small numbers ) or early Gresley bogie stock - for which you're talking etched kits 

 

The market for C1s and N2s is essentially the LNER modeller (plus BR (E) modellers for the N2 - the C1's went in 1951). The interwar LNER modeller of lesser branches  will be very glad to have approximations of GE and GC (ex MSLR) 6-wheelers to be getting on with...  There are considerably more ex GE and ex GC locos available RTR than GN [ I know 3 of the original versions of the A3 appeared just before Grouping , but these coaches are certainly not appropriate for them]  And most people modelling ex GN lines are actually modelling the East Coast Main Line

 

Absent a C12  as RTR, or the motley assortment of Stirling 2-4-0s , 0-4-2s , and 0-4-4Ts that actually worked GN secondary trains before WW1 , the demand for GN coaches won't be great

 

Rural E Anglian branches are a popular subject and we are just short of a RTR Buckjumper (which must come)  and Gobbler (2-4-2T) to have all the key loco types RTR to model town or country. 6 wheelers lingered there until 1940 in some places (and on two lines until 1949-50) 

 

Similarly , we've had 5  SECR locos RTR in OO and (I think)  4 LBSCR . Both had rural branches and intensive London suburban operations - we've got the locos , we just need the coaches (and they were neighbours so overlapped..)

 

That's where I see the demand for these coaches

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5 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Hardly. The panelling is way, way off. There's not much mileage in trying to make something that doesn't look at all like a GNR carriage into something that still doesn't look like a GNR carriage. Far better to take it on its own terms.

 

There might be an argument for making the liveries generic too - green ones, red ones, blue ones, brown ones, varnished wood ones - without company branding.

 

Unbranded varnished wood could be useful for light railways and others. Otherwise I'd avoid generic liveries

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2 hours ago, Wickham Green said:

So what if one of these 'generic' coaches - having undergone sixty-odd pages of tweaking to make it more plausible - ends up uncomfortably close to something that actually existed on some railway or other ? - would you boycott it in any other livery ?

 

 

GSWR full brake - see earlier in the thread.

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7 hours ago, nswgr1855 said:

 

I used the semi elliptical description to describe the GNR roof style to distinguish it from the simple cured roof Hattons will be doing. Yes the GNR roof is fairly flat on top but is made of of more than one curve, and noticeably different to the simple curve variety. I personally would be happy to use the generic wagon if it has the correct roof profile, the paint job should give the illusion of correct paneling. If Hattons does 3 roof profiles, then at least most of the range would look right from a distance.  

 

Terry Flynn.

 

The idea that it would be a simple procedure to produce different roof profiles overlooks the fact that each would require a completely different end moulding as well, and, depending on how Hattons propose to configure the body moulding, this could mean doubling the costs.

it is interesting that Terry considers the roof profile is more important than the panelling style. I suspect everyone really needs to see the models in the flesh and use their own judgement, based on their understanding of the prototype and personal preferences, to decide whether or not there are compromises, and, if the latter, whether they are acceptable or not. I have been surprised by the enthusiasm for the LNWR and SECR liveries, as I consider the Wolverton style of panelling is so different from this generic design as to being completely awry, but that is obviously my perception, and not shared with those who have eagerly pledged their backing.

One aspect that doesn't seem to have been discussed is the door grab handles, as many lines adopted very distinctive styles, which are instantly identifiable. Hattons have shrewdly shown a small rectangular design, which is very discreet. In reality, although the current six wheeled proposal would be a very close fit to those on a number of lines, GWR, MR, NER, LBSCR. Cambrian, and GSWR, CR, GER and possibly others, many of these had very distinctive handles, luscious curves for the GWR, tall and thin on the LBSC, down to floor level on the GER etc. It always puzzles me that many excellent modellers, having spent hours cutting and shaping Hornby and Ratio GWR coaches to create different companies' stock, leave the handles untouched, generally spoiling, for me, all their hard work.  It would be interesting to know whether Hattons are going to stick with the current scheme, or have simple ways to change the handles for each livery.

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2 hours ago, Ravenser said:

 

For the record , the GNR N2 dates from 1921 . It was a suburban tank , pulling clapped-out 4 wheelers close-coupled for a couple of years (one of the LNER's major capital investments in the mid 1920s was complete replacement of the GE and GN suburban fleets with Quad-Artic and Quint-Artic sets) .  Most N2s were built after the Grouping

 

You can't run it with a Stirling Single - Gresley scrapped the GN's last singles in 1918 in one fell swoop (they'd been used for the faster trains on the E Lincolnshire line - which was flat as a pancake and straight as an arrow). The Stirling 8' singles went earlier still . Ivatt moved rapidly away from 6 wheelers when he took over - for a C1 Atlantic you need Howldon bogie stock (Mousa Models did some kits, resin cast, in small numbers ) or early Gresley bogie stock - for which you're talking etched kits 

 

The market for C1s and N2s is essentially the LNER modeller (plus BR (E) modellers for the N2 - the C1's went in 1951). The interwar LNER modeller of lesser branches  will be very glad to have approximations of GE and GC (ex MSLR) 6-wheelers to be getting on with...  There are considerably more ex GE and ex GC locos available RTR than GN [ I know 3 of the original versions of the A3 appeared just before Grouping , but these coaches are certainly not appropriate for them]  And most people modelling ex GN lines are actually modelling the East Coast Main Line

 

Absent a C12  as RTR, or the motley assortment of Stirling 2-4-0s , 0-4-2s , and 0-4-4Ts that actually worked GN secondary trains before WW1 , the demand for GN coaches won't be great

 

Rural E Anglian branches are a popular subject and we are just short of a RTR Buckjumper (which must come)  and Gobbler (2-4-2T) to have all the key loco types RTR to model town or country. 6 wheelers lingered there until 1940 in some places (and on two lines until 1949-50) 

 

Similarly , we've had 5  SECR locos RTR in OO and (I think)  4 LBSCR . Both had rural branches and intensive London suburban operations - we've got the locos , we just need the coaches (and they were neighbours so overlapped..)

 

That's where I see the demand for these coaches

 

Thank you for the prototype information. One assumption you have made is a person purchasing  RTR GNR stock is sticking with a particular era and location. In my case my Stirling is simply a model I display on a shelf, and most RTR models are sold to people who are collectors or people who simply run any thing they like on their layouts. I know lots of rail enthusiasts with a room full of models and no layout. It is these groups of model train "collector" who makes up the majority of RTR sales.

 

Terry Flynn.

 

 

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42 minutes ago, Nick Holliday said:

One aspect that doesn't seem to have been discussed is the door grab handles, as many lines adopted very distinctive styles, which are instantly identifiable. Hattons have shrewdly shown a small rectangular design, which is very discreet. In reality, although the current six wheeled proposal would be a very close fit to those on a number of lines, GWR, MR, NER, LBSCR. Cambrian, and GSWR, CR, GER and possibly others, many of these had very distinctive handles, luscious curves for the GWR, tall and thin on the LBSC, down to floor level on the GER etc. It always puzzles me that many excellent modellers, having spent hours cutting and shaping Hornby and Ratio GWR coaches to create different companies' stock, leave the handles untouched, generally spoiling, for me, all their hard work.  It would be interesting to know whether Hattons are going to stick with the current scheme, or have simple ways to change the handles for each livery.

This might be a great way that third party producers might step in, and could be a (relatively) simple upgrade that those that are inclined to do so could take on. Possibly?

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6 hours ago, gr.king said:

 

Very much agreed. The panelling is so much further adrift from GNR style than it would be for quite a lot of other companies, that a roof of the right shape doesn't even make the coaches vaguely like a GN vehicle. For the less pedantic among us however, the panelling will at least pass a casual inspection of fitness for purpose for some other companies. Unless one is extremely inobservant, or devoid of a large part of one's eyesight, the only way to pass these vehicles off as a reasonable train behind a Stirling Single or Ivatt Atlantic is to portray a through service or excursion made up of stock from other companies (or other areas of the LNER for a post-grouping Atlanic hauled train).

 

Yes, I understand a correct roof will not make it a close to accurate GNR model, but from a viewing distance of 2m, it should look the part. With the wrong roof as proposed it will look totally wrong. I would prefer the correct paneling on these models, but it appears there is little chance of  this happening for this project. 

 

Terry Flynn.

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34 minutes ago, truffy said:

This might be a great way that third party producers might step in, and could be a (relatively) simple upgrade that those that are inclined to do so could take on. Possibly?

I note that Roxey Mouldings offer frets of etched handrails (easily superglued into place, and already in nice, bright brass so no painting required) for GWR (Dean), LSWR, SER/SECR and LBSC (Stroudley-style) carriages, and also T-shaped and looped door handles too - a nice easy first detailing project? 

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