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'Genesis' 4 & 6 wheel coaches in OO Gauge - New Announcement


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34 minutes ago, truffy said:

This might be a great way that third party producers might step in, and could be a (relatively) simple upgrade that those that are inclined to do so could take on. Possibly?

That would only work if the grab handles were left off altogether, as carving off the wrong ones would leave a scar which wouldn't be covered by the after-market handles. You would have to match the paint exactly to be able to cover the scar, before attaching your new ones. I confess my 50 year-old S&DJR Triang clerestory conversions still have the big GWR loop not the long thin S&DJR  reversed 'S'.

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1 hour ago, Nick Holliday said:

The idea that it would be a simple procedure to produce different roof profiles overlooks the fact that each would require a completely different end moulding as well, and, depending on how Hattons propose to configure the body moulding, this could mean doubling the costs.

it is interesting that Terry considers the roof profile is more important than the panelling style. I suspect everyone really needs to see the models in the flesh and use their own judgement, based on their understanding of the prototype and personal preferences, to decide whether or not there are compromises, and, if the latter, whether they are acceptable or not. I have been surprised by the enthusiasm for the LNWR and SECR liveries, as I consider the Wolverton style of panelling is so different from this generic design as to being completely awry, but that is obviously my perception, and not shared with those who have eagerly pledged their backing.

 

 

Adding extra roof profiles will not double the cost of tooling, as you still could have the same number of tools, with only extra cavity mould inserts for the roof and ends. I know this because I am good friends with the design engineer for SDS models http://www.sdsmodels.com.au . I only consider the roof profile more important than panel moulding simply because from a distance the roof shape is clearly observed. For paneling to be seen, a closer viewing distance is required. I would prefer accurate models, but that is not what is being proposed and that would be an extra cost again.

 

Terry Flynn.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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If you are convinced that alternative roofs alone will suffice, then why not prove the point yourself? Assuming these coaches actually get made and have separate roofs that are all the same length, then make one new roof to GNR profile, including the tops of the ends, so that it will fit accurately on a standard generic coach with original roof removed and original ends cut off level with the tops of the sides. Make multiple copies of the roof as resin castings and equip as many coaches as you wish to run behind your RTR locos to GNR designs. Sell further copies of the roof to similarly-minded eager customers.

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5 minutes ago, gr.king said:

If you are convinced that alternative roofs alone will suffice, then why not prove the point yourself? 

 

The effort involved would be better directed at assembling some kits for authentic GNR 6-wheelers.

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10 hours ago, Nick Holliday said:

The idea that it would be a simple procedure to produce different roof profiles overlooks the fact that each would require a completely different end moulding as well, and, depending on how Hattons propose to configure the body moulding, this could mean doubling the costs.

it is interesting that Terry considers the roof profile is more important than the panelling style. I suspect everyone really needs to see the models in the flesh and use their own judgement, based on their understanding of the prototype and personal preferences, to decide whether or not there are compromises, and, if the latter, whether they are acceptable or not. I have been surprised by the enthusiasm for the LNWR and SECR liveries, as I consider the Wolverton style of panelling is so different from this generic design as to being completely awry, but that is obviously my perception, and not shared with those who have eagerly pledged their backing.

One aspect that doesn't seem to have been discussed is the door grab handles, as many lines adopted very distinctive styles, which are instantly identifiable. Hattons have shrewdly shown a small rectangular design, which is very discreet. In reality, although the current six wheeled proposal would be a very close fit to those on a number of lines, GWR, MR, NER, LBSCR. Cambrian, and GSWR, CR, GER and possibly others, many of these had very distinctive handles, luscious curves for the GWR, tall and thin on the LBSC, down to floor level on the GER etc. It always puzzles me that many excellent modellers, having spent hours cutting and shaping Hornby and Ratio GWR coaches to create different companies' stock, leave the handles untouched, generally spoiling, for me, all their hard work.  It would be interesting to know whether Hattons are going to stick with the current scheme, or have simple ways to change the handles for each livery.

Nick,

 

I think that you and some others are confusing Railway Modelling with Model Railways in relation to this topic.

 

Followers of the former are concerned about the relative accuracy of the models they buy/build to recreate a miniature version of a particular railway/location/period.

 

Followers of the latter are happy to accept whatever the RTR manufacturers/commissioners produce to create their Model Railway.

 

It appears to me that it is this latter and larger sector of the market that Hattons are targeting, so all the discussion about specific prototype railway details for these is, frankly, a waste of time. Beyond those contributing to this thread, I would suggest that the majority of buyers of these generic models will be more motivated by models in otherwise unobtainable pre-group liveries and at low prices, than attention to specific  "minor" details.

 

Those like me for whom the detail is important will continue to kitbuild, kit bash, scratchbuild or even design their own kits or 3D printed models. That is why I shan't be buying any of these generic coaches, even in LNWR livery, but will be looking for the impact on pre-group model making with interest.

 

Jol

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7 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

 

It appears to me that it is this latter and larger sector of the market that Hattons are targeting, so all the discussion about specific prototype railway details for these is, frankly, a waste of time. Beyond those contributing to this thread, I would suggest that the majority of buyers of these generic models will be more motivated by models in otherwise unobtainable pre-group liveries and at low prices, than attention to specific  "minor" details.

 

 

Yes and no. It seems to me that if the thing is worth doing, it's worth doing well - i.e. that the product should resemble something that could feasibly have existed; should not commit any howlers. If a Hornby 4-wheeler mixed in with a rake of these sticks out like a sore thumb, then the Hattons carriages will have been a success; equally, if an accurate kit-built carriage of the given railway does not stick out, the Hattons carriages will also have been a success. 

 

Of course by the latter criterion they're never going to pass as LNWR or GNR carriages by any measure. For the fastidious such as myself they're not going to pass for anyone else's either but I'm a carriage nerd - I would probably spot a carriage error but would have to have a locomotive error pointed out to me, if it wasn't Midland.

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And that I think is the crux.  We all have blind spots in our modelling, be it track gauge, signalling, stock and locomotives matching, mixed eras; the list is endless.

 

So while some of us will not find a use for Hattons coaches, many will.  

 

Is it right that we should be critical of them for that, when our own offerings also suffer from different blind spots?

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11 hours ago, nswgr1855 said:

......  I know lots of rail enthusiasts with a room full of models and no layout. It is these groups of model train "collector" who makes up the majority of RTR sales.

I don't think I've ever heard a request for reduced price 'no motor' models - which would obviously satisfy these 'collectors' ............ or are they so ashamed they've not attempted a layout that they'll not admit it ??!?

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1 hour ago, Wickham Green said:

I don't think I've ever heard a request for reduced price 'no motor' models - which would obviously satisfy these 'collectors' ............ or are they so ashamed they've not attempted a layout that they'll not admit it ??!?

 

The call for motor free has been going on for years and comes around in cycles!

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2 hours ago, Wickham Green said:

I don't think I've ever heard a request for reduced price 'no motor' models - which would obviously satisfy these 'collectors' ............ or are they so ashamed they've not attempted a layout that they'll not admit it ??!?

Why should they be ashamed of not having a layout or wanting to run the trains. I have 40+ years old rolling stock from my old S&DJR & GWR layout. The layout was disposed of when I left my parents' home. I am in the process of making what I call a diorama, on which to place the old rolling stock. When I am in railway modelling mode, I enjoy making models but have no real interest in running trains or shunting wagons. Everyone is entitled to do their own thing. We could all pick holes in each other's way of doing things. If you think about it, it's a bit strange that the only things that move on most layouts are the trains. People stand staring into space. Washing hangs rigid on the line. The coal in the coaling stage usually stays in the same place and no water comes out of the water column. Just enjoy what you want to do and don't worry what anyone else is doing.

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2 hours ago, Wickham Green said:

I don't think I've ever heard a request for reduced price 'no motor' models - which would obviously satisfy these 'collectors' ............ or are they so ashamed they've not attempted a layout that they'll not admit it ??!?

 

1 hour ago, Mark Saunders said:

 

The call for motor free has been going on for years and comes around in cycles!

 

And the usual outcome is a realisation that the motor represents such a tiny proportion of the price of a loco that the additional cost of setting up production of motorised and non-motorised batches might actually lead to an increase in prices.

 

John  

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22 hours ago, trevor7598 said:

As others have suggested throughout this thread, it would be better for Hatton's to model some

accurate prototypes, in accurate liveries and then use the same tooling to cover other companies

liveries. At least we could then have some welcome, accurate, 4 &6 wheelers rather than some ' nearly '

models for everyone.

I would expect those that take up pages on RM WEB criticising minor inaccuracies on various RTR

locomotives, to avoid ' generic ' model coaches at all cost. But I'll bet some will be quite happy with them!.

 

This discussion has come up approximately 2.5 million times on this thread already (I lost count), but the basic argument against is:

 

1. Increased cost of R&D in order to produce a model that is accurate enough to satisfy those who would be interested in the specific prototype. The tooling would likely have to be more detailed than the generic coaches would be, because you're serving the people who are only happy with accurate models, so that would also drive up costs. 

 

2. Accurate models for one company would only satisfy those who model that company, which is a fraction of a fraction of the market. As evidenced by this thread, many of those modellers would have been happy with a generic coach. Which company do you choose to maximise your returns? Which of their coaches?

 

3. If you don't model the company Hattons chooses, then what you have is a set of coaches that aren't accurate for your company, and cost significantly more than £30 apiece.

 

In other words, there's a strong possibility that Hattons could actually lose sales by producing accurate models.

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3 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

 

Followers of the former are concerned about the relative accuracy of the models they buy/build to recreate a miniature version of a particular railway/location/period.

 

 

 

Pre-grouping liveries were usually very ornate and even the best kit / freelance builders struggle to get it fine / detailed / tiny enough that it looks right* behind RTR stock like Hornby’s SECR H class.

 

That is where Hattons ‘Generic’ coaches come in - fine Tampo printed lining and separately fitted details which matches the standard being delivered by RTR loco manufacturers will go a long way to compensating for the fact that the coach is not an exact comply of a particular prototype.

 

Naturally it is accepted that whatever designs Hattons finally pick, they may be closer to the practices of some pre-grouping companies than others - and this is perhaps where care needs to be taken in what is offered in livery terms.

 

The SECR, LBSCR, GE and LMS are all obvious candidates in view of the number of RTR locos available but with no suitable stock to haul. Others companies may be less viable though. 

 

 

*If you are a BR era modeller and there is no lining just overall crimson then it’s obviously a lot easier to get a good finish 

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11 minutes ago, HonestTom said:

 

This discussion has come up approximately 2.5 million times on this thread already (I lost count), but the basic argument against is:

 

1. Increased cost of R&D in order to produce a model that is accurate enough to satisfy those who would be interested in the specific prototype. The tooling would likely have to be more detailed than the generic coaches would be, because you're serving the people who are only happy with accurate models, so that would also drive up costs. 

 

2. Accurate models for one company would only satisfy those who model that company, which is a fraction of a fraction of the market. As evidenced by this thread, many of those modellers would have been happy with a generic coach. Which company do you choose to maximise your returns? Which of their coaches?

 

3. If you don't model the company Hattons chooses, then what you have is a set of coaches that aren't accurate for your company, and cost significantly more than £30 apiece.

 

In other words, there's a strong possibility that Hattons could actually lose sales by producing accurate models.

 

I disagree.  R&D is relatively cheap to do because there are plenty of model railway enthusiasts who will provide this information for next to nothing.

It would cost no more to produce a set of accurate coaches for one company and then paint extras the colours of other companies (the generic range). This would result in increased sales of the accurate company models, and the same sales for the 'generic' repaints. 

 

Terry Flynn.

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4 minutes ago, nswgr1855 said:

 

It would cost no more to produce a set of accurate coaches for one company and then paint extras the colours of other companies (the generic range). This would result in increased sales of the accurate company models, and the same sales for the 'generic' repaints. 

 

 

Maybe. But you can bet your bottom dollar that the Great Northern isn't the company one would choose to make them accurate for.

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23 minutes ago, nswgr1855 said:

 

I disagree.  R&D is relatively cheap to do because there are plenty of model railway enthusiasts who will provide this information for next to nothing.

It would cost no more to produce a set of accurate coaches for one company and then paint extras the colours of other companies (the generic range). This would result in increased sales of the accurate company models, and the same sales for the 'generic' repaints. 

 

Terry Flynn.

 

With all due respect to those who have submitted information in this thread, how do you know which enthusiasts have accurate information? Even drawings that are considered authoritative can contain mistakes. At the very least, you'd need someone to check that the information you're receiving is correct.

 

I'd argue that if it doesn't cost any more to produce a set of accurate coaches, Bachmann's birdcages should not have an RRP double that of the Hattons' Genesis coaches.

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1 hour ago, nswgr1855 said:

This would result in increased sales of the accurate company models, and the same sales for the 'generic' repaints. 

No it wouldn't. The accurate models would sell well to those who model that company, but few of us would want, say, LNWR coaches painted as LBSCR or Southern. People buy Tri-ang clerestories and butcher them to be more like their prototype. They do not often buy them and just repaint. 

 

Have you read all 60+ pages of this thread?

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1 hour ago, nswgr1855 said:

 

This would result in increased sales of the accurate company models, and the same sales for the 'generic' repaints.

 

No, it really would not. I wouldn't touch a GNR coach tarted up in GNR livery let alone in a fictitiously applied LNWR/MR/South Staffs/LMS absorbed 'unknown'. Likewise I wouldn't touch a Midland coach in LNWR livery or vice versa although in LMS livery I would in either case...but I certainly wouldn't foist an LMS constituent diagram on an LBSC or SECR modeller in their house colours. But as you clearly know better and have the friend in the appropriate R&D background with SDS, perhaps you would like to convince him that GNR coaches painted in Taff Vale livery would be a sure thing money spinner. Pre-grouping railways are much like football teams and their supporters, you love your own, tolerate some and wouldn't spit on the others if they were on fire.

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Unfortunately this thread has degenerated into a "If you do an accurate model of Company A's (insert your favourite company) vehicles it will get more sales and Company B, C, D, etc. modellers will still buy them"

 

Sigh.

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I am pleased to see that Hattons is going to produce some full brakes in response to this thread. My main interest is the London and South Western Railway and its successors. One van that I would like to see is a LSWR special milk van to deliver the milk churns at Corfe Castle station that I am modelling and other rural stations. At first glance the full brake looks a bit like the illustration of a LSWR special milk van on page 111 of a pictorial guide to Southern Wagons and Vans by Terry Gough ARPS but the prototype had sliding doors and ventilated panels below the window level. It may be possible to cut out the sides of the Hattons model and rebuild the sides. It may even be possible to make sliding doors like the Hornby 0 gauge Southern milk van so you can load the milk churns from the platform into the van.

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7 minutes ago, wombatofludham said:

Tony Bennet's Brother by another mother, Gordon.  Is this "authentic model of my pet railway" argument still going round in more circles than the Circle Line?

Hatton's have chosen to invest serious moolah into this project because they consider they will make money from it.  It's a done deal.

 

This does NOT stop those in pursuit of accuracy from hand knitting their own models nor does it stop anyone with money to invest from putting it where their mouth is and tooling up for a company-specific design if - big if - they are convinced they will sell.

Hatton's are not going to change tack now.  If you don't like them don't buy them.  This isn't the beginning of the end, inviting the Barbarians of Genericism back into the fold, we're not about to get a tsunami of K-Tel looky-liky locos or stock.  It is a one off attempt to provide the mass of ordinary enthusiasts who would struggle to know what a "bolection" was let alone the precise details of the Miss Marpleshire and Father Brownshire  Joint Railway ex Great Fartlebury six wheel quad-composite with pigeon locker coach that some expert says would be a sure fire seller, with something that will satisfy by capturing the typical details of a selection of late Victorian coaches.  We get that those of you devoted to modelling that period accurately, and who already have committed to the level of scratch or kit building currently necessary to do, so won't like that, but dare I say it, you are not the market.
 

Hatton's aren't about to change tack, they've listened to some sensible comments which they have for the most part taken on board but are still ploughing ahead.

Hattons have changed tack by announcing six wheel full brakes and LBSCR coaches.

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18 minutes ago, wombatofludham said:

Tony Bennet's Brother by another mother, Gordon.  Is this "authentic model of my pet railway" argument still going round in more circles than the Circle Line?

Hatton's have chosen to invest serious moolah into this project because they consider they will make money from it.  It's a done deal.

 

This does NOT stop those in pursuit of accuracy from hand knitting their own models nor does it stop anyone with money to invest from putting it where their mouth is and tooling up for a company-specific design if - big if - they are convinced they will sell.

Hatton's are not going to change tack now.  If you don't like them don't buy them.  This isn't the beginning of the end, inviting the Barbarians of Genericism back into the fold, we're not about to get a tsunami of K-Tel looky-liky locos or stock.  It is a one off attempt to provide the mass of ordinary enthusiasts who would struggle to know what a "bolection" was let alone the precise details of the Miss Marpleshire and Father Brownshire  Joint Railway ex Great Fartlebury six wheel quad-composite with pigeon locker coach that some expert says would be a sure fire seller, with something that will satisfy by capturing the typical details of a selection of late Victorian coaches.  We get that those of you devoted to modelling that period accurately, and who already have committed to the level of scratch or kit building currently necessary to do, so won't like that, but dare I say it, you are not the market.
 

Hatton's aren't about to change tack, they've listened to some sensible comments which they have for the most part taken on board but are still ploughing ahead.

Very well put but it won't stop them complaining.

15 minutes ago, Robin Brasher said:

I am pleased to see that Hattons is going to produce some full brakes in response to this thread. My main interest is the London and South Western Railway and its successors. One van that I would like to see is a LSWR special milk van to deliver the milk churns at Corfe Castle station that I am modelling and other rural stations. At first glance the full brake looks a bit like the illustration of a LSWR special milk van on page 111 of a pictorial guide to Southern Wagons and Vans by Terry Gough ARPS but the prototype had sliding doors and ventilated panels below the window level. It may be possible to cut out the sides of the Hattons model and rebuild the sides. It may even be possible to make sliding doors like the Hornby 0 gauge Southern milk van so you can load the milk churns from the platform into the van.

I've no doubt that some are already designing overlays and other bits and pieces to alter these coaches once they are available. 

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