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'Genesis' 4 & 6 wheel coaches in OO Gauge - New Announcement


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9 hours ago, Mark Saunders said:

 

Rather like these terms, rather like Humpty Dumpty ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’

 

Exhibition Standard

 

Professionally built

 

CAD drawing

 

Well, "Exhibition Standard" covers a wide range of models/layouts, from Thomas the Tank to well observed and accurately modelled (as in it follows the prototype upon which it is said to be based). Likewise "Professional Built" as in someone who is paid to make something, irrespective of their skills and abilities and henceforth the quality of the finished item. "CAD drawing" is a bit easier as it is a drawing produced using CAD software, although agian the quality is dependent on the draughts person, not the software.

7 hours ago, wombatofludham said:


Why do you need to describe it?
 

Because people ask. Usually those with little or no knowledge of  "Railway Modelling" or "Model Railways". There is a distinction which I for one like to explain.

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1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

And SDS cater for a specialised niche within that much smaller market.

 

 

 

 

Actually they do not. SDS are one of the main suppliers of injection moulded RTR over here. At a time when the standard eras of modelling have become crowded and are running out of things to do, they have realised they can create a market and have done just that.

 

With accurate models too and in a market that is smaller. Yes, people pay more but they are prepared to pay.

 

Craig W

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9 hours ago, nswgr1855 said:

 

Then I assume that you will not be buying any of the Hattons offerings, unless they are accurate representative of the prototype you model. I will not be buying any Hattons GNR repaints unless they look like a GNR coach. To look like a GNR coach they need the correct roof for starters. As for SDS models, they specialise in accurate finescale RTR  H0 scale Australian prototype models. The Australian market is a tenth of the UK market yet SDS makes enough money to continue developing new prototype specific finescale RTR models. 

 

Terry Flynn.

 

 

 

Quite the opposite, as they are NOT specific a railways diagram I am less offended at being offered certain liveries on an imaginary vehicle that follows the basic design principles used in the period. I shall again use a football analogy, as I have a friend who has a sports outlet (its a market stall, but lets not split too many hairs)...Customers are more happy to buy an unbranded kit in their teams colours than they are to buy their teams kit made by the wrong brand. Those mismatched kits don't sell at all, they wound up heavily discounted and eventually they get dumped as surplus stock, so he doesn't bother stocking such abominations anymore. However, the unbranded cheap and cheerful ones do sell and they outsell the official kits by a rather hefty margin.

 

Now my own take and stance on these generic coaches. I see the for and against quite realistically. I would personally rather have a cohesive range of Midland and LNWR diagrams, but to do so would be prohibitively expensive for the returns you would get, and the models offered in the wrong livery would cause more offence than is worth dealing with. I'm certainly not willing to pay upwards of £50 for a 4 wheeler, which is what the result would be and is what SDS ask for broadly similar. I'd sooner spend that money on kits of exactly the diagrams I was after rather than a small selection that doesn't reflect the variety of the real thing... yes, even a prototype specific range is generic as it is still limited to a handful of models and not truly representative. I consider the Hornby range of corridor Staniers generic for example as they do not provide ANY composites or other passenger diagrams which appeared on anything but a 57ft chassis, you can't achieve a prototypical formation using them alone. You could argue their Airfix based 68ft diner, but that's hardly to a standard equivalent to the rest of the LMS coaches they produce. Likewise the Bachmann Portholes, its a more complete range as it covers all diagrams, but trains with nothing but Portholes? Sorry, again the range is only capable of producing a generic model and the filler is the elderly ex-Mainline panelled stock limited to two diagrams. You can mix and match the two product ranges to produce something a bit more representative, but even that is still very limited in portraying a true representation. Back to requiring kits if you want to actually escape the generic model, I have several 51L products and a few London Road kits in my current to do pile as the Hornby LMS suburbans are less than half of that story too...but most modellers are happy to use what is available RTR, and those who aren't still build the kits anyway. There is very little different in what Hattons are doing. They're catering to those who are happy to have a generic representation, not to those who want a complete range available of their specific interest. If, and I emphasise IF they did 6 Midland or LNWR diagrams, that would not be enough to cover what I wanted, so I'd STILL be in a position where I had to kit build most of the stock. I suppose you want me to answer that burning question, will I be buying them? Yes, I probably will, for a freelance industrial setting, where questions of their lineage are largely null and void, simply because its quicker, easier and cheaper than to source and build half a dozen kits.

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19 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I would consider the Wikipedia article Finescale standard defective, in that for 7 mm and 4 mm scales, it equates finescale with the wider gauges. I think finescale 00 is an established concept - wheel and track standards "finer" - i.e. a bit closer to scale - than off-the-shelf commercial RTR. But that's become a bit muddied given that most modern RTR features back-to-back and flange depth dimensions that, when the concept of finescale first surfaced, would have been thought finescale. One can even buy a RTR wagon with Alan Gibson wheelsets (or could if it hadn't sold out to pre-order).

 

19 hours ago, nswgr1855 said:

 

SNIP:  As for SDS models, they specialise in accurate finescale RTR  H0 scale Australian prototype models. The Australian market is a tenth of the UK market yet SDS makes enough money to continue developing new prototype specific finescale RTR models. 

 

Terry Flynn.

 

 

 

I rest my case for finescale being a bit accurate meaningless name.  :)

 

I do applaud Hattons for being honest about building detailed models of historic past coaches that are a quite attractive mix of the characteristics of real prototypes, without actually being exactly one of them. The big advantage is that they will seem reminiscent of what we younger folk imagine they were like, and thus likely provide acceptable substitutes for the modelling purposes of many.  

 

Andy

 

 

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On 24/11/2019 at 06:26, Andy Reichert said:

 

 

I rest my case for finescale being a bit accurate meaningless name.  :)

 

I do applaud Hattons for being honest about building detailed models of historic past coaches that are a quite attractive mix of the characteristics of real prototypes, without actually being exactly one of them. The big advantage is that they will seem reminiscent of what we younger folk imagine they were like, and thus likely provide acceptable substitutes for the modelling purposes of many.  

 

Andy

 

 

 

The problem for me is the Hattons offering does not have the characteristic roof profile of the GNR, thus they are unacceptable for those of us non experts who have noticed this significant easily observed difference.  They will loose sales because of this.

 

Fine scale means its not coarse scale.  

 

Cheers,

Terry Flynn.

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14 minutes ago, nswgr1855 said:

They will loose sales because of this.

Of course they will. They’ve lost yours, so that's one right away. But then they’ve gained mine, as I've never been in the market for anything like these before, but think they’re great, so will get some.  

 

The real question for their business is will they lose enough to care. My guess would be that this will cost them 0.1% of otherwise total potential sales. Do you have a more accurate (calculated?) estimate?

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Hats off to Hattons.  The hobby is seeing more high quality models of specific prototypes but at a high price.  This project of Hattons is good in that it is promising to bring reasonably priced coaches that will satisfy a lot of modellers who want to run an "old fashion train" of four and six wheelers without spending a fortune. 

 

It may also bring a return to modellers taking out their craft knives and other tools to modify what's available to make a reasonable representation of one's chosen prototype.  

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1 hour ago, nswgr1855 said:

 

The problem for me is the Hattons offering does not have the characteristic roof profile of the GNR, thus they are unacceptable for those of us non experts who have noticed this significant easily observed difference.  They will loose sales because of this. ......

 

.

 

No, on that ONE measure they are unacceptable only to those people who want GNR coaches !  Any other company's "expert" may note the difference, but also understand the meaning of the word "generic".

 

Most people here understand the fact that Hattons announced these as GENERIC coaches, and that if they looked too much like a single company's coaches then many prospective purchasers would ignore the offering, whether that company was the GNR or even the SECR !

 

I doubt if many people (other than ultra collectors) will want to buy more than two company's coaches (IF they model a station, or line, where two company's overlap) but overall many people with "pretty" pre-grouping locomotives (or with unaccountable pre-grouping tendencies) will buy generic coaches and let the liveries spell out the differences.   I look forward to the many different layouts with many different liveries.

 

.

 

 

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While I am waiting for the Hattons LSWR coaches I am tempted to make some Ratio Great Western 4 wheel coaches and paint them brown and salmon pink. I expect the Hattons coaches will be better but it will be a good stop gap measure.

 

Many years ago Graham Farish made some N gauge freelance pre-grouping four wheel coaches and these sold well and were ideal for people with little space.

 

I think that the Hattons coaches will sell well because I think that the people who will be happy with generic coaches will exceed those who want a specific prototype which will only be suitable for one railway company.

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On ‎25‎/‎11‎/‎2019 at 07:43, nswgr1855 said:

 

The problem for me is the Hattons offering does not have the characteristic roof profile of the GNR, thus they are unacceptable for those of us non experts who have noticed this significant easily observed difference.  They will loose sales because of this.

 

Fine scale means its not coarse scale.  

 

Cheers,

Terry Flynn.

So, if Hatton's just drop the idea of selling any of these in GNR livery, you'll presumably be happy? I'm sure there'd be plenty of new potential buyers out there to make up any loss of sales were their favoured liveries to be produced instead.

 

Fine scale is about much more than wheel profile (or even gauge). An otherwise bog-standard Hornby or Bachmann loco doesn't become fine-scale just by fitting skinny wheels to a more accurate gauge. In the fullest sense, "Fine scale" (as opposed to "OO finescale" which only amounts to using EM wheel and track standards without changing gauge) can be defined by an overall approach to fidelity, and is something to which NOTHING generic, however beautifully crafted, can truly lay claim to.

 

 But then, Hatton's have never implied anything of the sort.

 

John

Edited by Dunsignalling
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17 minutes ago, Robin Brasher said:

While I am waiting for the Hattons LSWR coaches I am tempted to make some Ratio Great Western 4 wheel coaches and paint them brown and salmon pink. I expect the Hattons coaches will be better but it will be a good stop gap measure.

 

Many years ago Graham Farish made some N gauge freelance pre-grouping four wheel coaches and these sold well and were ideal for people with little space.

 

I think that the Hattons coaches will sell well because I think that the people who will be happy with generic coaches will exceed those who want a specific prototype which will only be suitable for one railway company.

 

Spot-on Robin.

 

However, given that we know what's coming, I'll not bother making items that will be (hopefully) out-done by Hatton's 18-24 months from now.

 

I have instead purchased some brass kits of 6-wheel NPCCS vans to build in the meantime and my motley stash of Tri-ang clerestories will henceforth be reserved for making bogie vehicles.

 

John

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On 23/11/2019 at 09:03, Craigw said:

 

Actually they do not. SDS are one of the main suppliers of injection moulded RTR over here. At a time when the standard eras of modelling have become crowded and are running out of things to do, they have realised they can create a market and have done just that.

 

With accurate models too and in a market that is smaller. Yes, people pay more but they are prepared to pay.

 

Craig W

 

The point that is being missed here is that pre-grouping is less than 10% of the British hobby. Perhaps as little as 5% . And that fraction is fragmented between almost 30 companies. Each of the 2 largest companies (LNWR and GWR) represented no more than 10% of the pre-grouping system.  5-10% of 5-10%  is about 0.5%- 1% of the total 4mm market , subject to rounding

 

So a company- specific range would be targetting a very small sub niche indeed. It wouldn't even have the niche to itself , necessarily - the Ratio range already includes easily built models for bogie coaches from the LNWR and MR  and 4 wheelers from the GW . That covers the 3 biggest pre-grouping companies. With an extensive range of etched brass LNWR kits available as well, you can see why this project needs to be generic and close to stock from 6-8 medium-sized companies 

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2 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

 

The point that is being missed here is that pre-grouping is less than 10% of the British hobby. Perhaps as little as 5% . And that fraction is fragmented between almost 30 companies. Each of the 2 largest companies (LNWR and GWR) represented no more than 10% of the pre-grouping system.  5-10% of 5-10%  is about 0.5%- 1% of the total 4mm market , subject to rounding

 

So a company- specific range would be targetting a very small sub niche indeed. It wouldn't even have the niche to itself , necessarily - the Ratio range already includes easily built models for bogie coaches from the LNWR and MR  and 4 wheelers from the GW . That covers the 3 biggest pre-grouping companies. With an extensive range of etched brass LNWR kits available as well, you can see why this project needs to be generic and close to stock from 6-8 medium-sized companies 

 

I am not missing the point at all. I was one of the people who started the NSW "Early Days" Workshops which is a real niche even now. 

 

As the market for the main modelling era is becoming more saturated SDS have been adventurous and released models for earlier periods.  The thing that the RTR manufacturers have not quite got a handle on is that they decide what people will model despite the protestations of modellers. "If" a set of coaches accurate for one railway had been done (preferably one with locos already available) then people would have modelled that railway if they wanted to model an earlier period.  

 

My personal suspicion is that the main interest in pre grouping is the occasional brightly coloured loco and many do not care in the slightest what it hauls. These models will fill that void, but I doubt very much that there will be an upsurge in interest in pre grouping modelling (sorry fellas)

 

Regards,

 

Craig W

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2 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

 

The point that is being missed here is that pre-grouping is less than 10% of the British hobby. Perhaps as little as 5% .

 

Surely part of the point of the exercise is to grow that percentage, by making it easier to make a start. 

 

It is partly my personal taste of course but many of the most satisfying layouts at exhibitions are pre-Grouping - they're ones that exude the most atmosphere (as opposed to imagined diesel fumes). That's not to say there aren't some poor pre-Grouping layouts about - ones that fail to evoke a sense of place. Equally, the best BR 1950s/60s (and later) layouts are the ones that are firmly set in a specific location (real or imagined) and pay attention to their pre-Grouping archaeology. So there are examples out there to get folk going. Once one is going down the pre-Grouping route, one inevitably gets drawn into doing some research - with secondary or even primary sources - and venturing into kit- and scratch-building. Pre-Grouping broadens the mind!

 

I'd like to think that in 20 years' time there will be modellers finding their old Hattons carriages in the bottom of their stock-box, holding them up against their exquisite P4 scratchbuilt  carriages and thinking "how could I have ever have though these would do as GN&SR* carriages?" whilst acknowledging that without them, they would never have dipped their toes into pre-Grouping and would never have wound up as Chair of the GN&SR Society...

 

*Fictional example. Insert initials to choice.

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8 minutes ago, Craigw said:

"If" a set of coaches accurate for one railway had been done (preferably one with locos already available) then people would have modelled that railway if they wanted to model an earlier period.  

 

 

There's a lot in that. If it hadn't been for the Ratio and Slaters plastic kits, I'd have been unlikely to have got into the Midland in quite such a big way. 

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34 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

 

The point that is being missed here is that pre-grouping is less than 10% of the British hobby. Perhaps as little as 5% . And that fraction is fragmented between almost 30 companies. Each of the 2 largest companies (LNWR and GWR) represented no more than 10% of the pre-grouping system.  5-10% of 5-10%  is about 0.5%- 1% of the total 4mm market , subject to rounding

 

So a company- specific range would be targetting a very small sub niche indeed. It wouldn't even have the niche to itself , necessarily - the Ratio range already includes easily built models for bogie coaches from the LNWR and MR  and 4 wheelers from the GW . That covers the 3 biggest pre-grouping companies. With an extensive range of etched brass LNWR kits available as well, you can see why this project needs to be generic and close to stock from 6-8 medium-sized companies 

And the segment Hatton's are really aiming for with these coaches isn't committed pre-group modellers in any case. Those, out of necessity, learn the kit/scratch building skills required to participate in that area of the hobby or accept the need to buy-in the expertise from others. 

 

Hatton's target Is the general enthusiast (probably with little or no detailed knowledge of the era) who has bought r-t-r locos in pre-group liveries, and wants coaches to run behind them that don't look out-of-place, without too much effort or expense.

 

In short, Rule 1 coaches to go with Rule 1 locos.

 

How much the pre-group modelling sector overall grows as a consequence of their introduction isn't really the point (though it can't be expected to have a negative effect). What they will do is draw peoples' attention to the era and the benefits of modelling it. Having planted the seed, what comes next (from Hatton's and others) may prove to be more important in the long run. 

 

John

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Yesterday I spoke to one of the Hattons staff at Warley and I asked him about other types of four and six wheelers (saloon and milk van specifically). He said that they are seriously looking at a saloon version and that it would be relatively simple to produce as the sides will be separate mouldings. This of course opens up the possibility of aftermarket replacement sides such as produced by Shires for the Ratio four wheelers.

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26 minutes ago, PhilJ W said:

Yesterday I spoke to one of the Hattons staff at Warley and I asked him about other types of four and six wheelers (saloon and milk van specifically). He said that they are seriously looking at a saloon version and that it would be relatively simple to produce as the sides will be separate mouldings. This of course opens up the possibility of aftermarket replacement sides such as produced by Shires for the Ratio four wheelers.

 

Did you ask them about doing different roof styles?

 

Terry Flynn.

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2 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

So, if Hatton's just drop the idea of selling any of these in GNR livery, you'll presumably be happy? I'm sure there'd be plenty of new potential buyers out there to make up any loss of sales were their favoured liveries to be produced instead.

John

 

No I will be happy if they do a GNR shaped roof for their generic GNR coaches. Closer to prototype means more sales.

 

Terry Flynn,

 

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12 minutes ago, nswgr1855 said:

No I will be happy if they do a GNR shaped roof for their generic GNR coaches. Closer to prototype means more sales.

 

But closer to your prototype means further from all the others, with a potentially larger loss in sales than gain. If you really want something closer, try a kit (bash).

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Just now, truffy said:

 

But closer to your prototype means further from all the others, with a potentially larger loss in sales than gain. If you really want something closer, try a kit (bash).

 

I have consistently stated to do more than one roof profile. That means more coaches that look right. Kits are irrelevant to RTR sales. I have no intention to purchase unmade UK kits. I have enough unmade NSWGR H0 kits to satisfy my kit building urges.

 

Terry Flynn.

 

 

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3 hours ago, phil gollin said:

.

 

No, on that ONE measure they are unacceptable only to those people who want GNR coaches !  Any other company's "expert" may note the difference, but also understand the meaning of the word "generic".

 

Most people here understand the fact that Hattons announced these as GENERIC coaches, and that if they looked too much like a single company's coaches then many prospective purchasers would ignore the offering, whether that company was the GNR or even the SECR !

 

I doubt if many people (other than ultra collectors) will want to buy more than two company's coaches (IF they model a station, or line, where two company's overlap) but overall many people with "pretty" pre-grouping locomotives (or with unaccountable pre-grouping tendencies) will buy generic coaches and let the liveries spell out the differences.   I look forward to the many different layouts with many different liveries.

 

.

 

 

For me, it's the places where companies overlap that interest me. My favourite pre-Grouping company is the Metropolitan. I doubt I'll be buying the Metropolitan generics because I know Met coaches well enough that the differences from the prototype would bug me (mostly the shape of the doors - to be honest, I could probably live with differences in panelling and suchlike). But for companies that met the Met, I'd just like a representative train. Life's too short to spend ages making a set of carriages that aren't overly important to me, when I could be working on stuff that does interest me. Therefore, I might well grab a set of Hattons LNWR coaches.

 

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6 minutes ago, nswgr1855 said:

 

I have consistently stated to do more than one roof profile. That means more coaches that look right. Kits are irrelevant to RTR sales. I have no intention to purchase unmade UK kits. I have enough unmade NSWGR H0 kits to satisfy my kit building urges.

 

Terry Flynn.

 

 

More than one roof profile means a new end profile and new sides to match so making it it's own separate tooling project in its own right. I can never see this happening as it would push the prices up overall and not for specific versions as there will be complaints about why a specific livery is more expensive than the rest. 

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11 minutes ago, HonestTom said:

For me, it's the places where companies overlap that interest me. My favourite pre-Grouping company is the Metropolitan. I doubt I'll be buying the Metropolitan generics because I know Met coaches well enough that the differences from the prototype would bug me (mostly the shape of the doors - to be honest, I could probably live with differences in panelling and suchlike). But for companies that met the Met, I'd just like a representative train. Life's too short to spend ages making a set of carriages that aren't overly important to me, when I could be working on stuff that does interest me. Therefore, I might well grab a set of Hattons LNWR coaches.

 

39 minutes ago, nswgr1855 said:

 

Did you ask them about doing different roof styles?

 

Terry Flynn.

I intended to but forgot. I was going to suggest the option of a flatter, lower roof profile with the option of a clerestory. It all depends on the sales of the initial production, if they fly off the shelves a few more options could well be considered.

 

11 minutes ago, HonestTom said:

For me, it's the places where companies overlap that interest me. My favourite pre-Grouping company is the Metropolitan. I doubt I'll be buying the Metropolitan generics because I know Met coaches well enough that the differences from the prototype would bug me (mostly the shape of the doors - to be honest, I could probably live with differences in panelling and suchlike). But for companies that met the Met, I'd just like a representative train. Life's too short to spend ages making a set of carriages that aren't overly important to me, when I could be working on stuff that does interest me. Therefore, I might well grab a set of Hattons LNWR coaches.

 

As the sides are separate it should be relatively easy to replace them.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Craigw said:

 

I am not missing the point at all. I was one of the people who started the NSW "Early Days" Workshops which is a real niche even now. 

 

As the market for the main modelling era is becoming more saturated SDS have been adventurous and released models for earlier periods.  The thing that the RTR manufacturers have not quite got a handle on is that they decide what people will model despite the protestations of modellers. "If" a set of coaches accurate for one railway had been done (preferably one with locos already available) then people would have modelled that railway if they wanted to model an earlier period.  

 

My personal suspicion is that the main interest in pre grouping is the occasional brightly coloured loco and many do not care in the slightest what it hauls. These models will fill that void, but I doubt very much that there will be an upsurge in interest in pre grouping modelling (sorry fellas)

 

Regards,

 

Craig W

 

The reason that the manufacturers haven't "got" this is that RTR in OO has become so comprehensive in the last 20 years that in practice very few subjects post 1923 are now off-limits

 

The pre-grouping railway with the best coverage in terms of locos is the SECR . Accurate coaches are available - but the Birdcage stock from Bachmann represents post WW1 main line stock and isn't  suitable for an Edwardian branchline . Bachmann chose the prototype because they were very much used on rural lines in the 1950s. IE it's a model aimed at the post war /interwar modeller, with a special run in SECR livery 

 

The next best served in terms of locos is the LB&SCR, followed by the GC

 

The generics are pretty close to Stroudley and Billinton coaches of the LB&SCR. They will pass for GC (ex MSLR ) 6 wheelers, or some MR 6 wheelers. They are being made available in SECR livery

 

I do expect a modest upsurge in Edwardian branchlines in Kent and Sussex, or Edwardian South London suburban

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