'Genesis' 4 & 6 wheel coaches in OO Gauge - New Announcement

[Otis JB]

Hi everyone,

 

Firstly I would like to take the opportunity to congratulate Hattons on their absolutely fantastic work with these CADs, they really do look the part, however I do have a slight concern about this project...

 

From what I have seen of these CADs, the overall body shape very effectively resembles almost every pre-group company's coaches except those of the GNR. The whole look of these coaches just doesn't resemble what the Northern built to me at all. To illustrate what I mean I will insert some images: 

 

 

 

 

Now I am definitely no expert in anything, even less of one in the in and outs of old coaching stock but by no stretch of my imagination do the Genesis vehicles match the real life GN examples. The two styles are clearly too different from one another in my mind, the Northern stock has different windows, roof fittings, end windows and such a contrastingly distinctive shape (one that is shared somewhat by the stock of the LSWR too). I believe the GNR never made anything similar to the Genesis style at all but I am obviously not knowledgeable enough to confirm that, if anyone could that would be much appreciated.

 

I wonder if it would be too difficult at this stage to add in another couple of bodies to the project, this style could also be utilised to create other companies' coaches ie: the LSWR and Metropolitan but alas I assume the ship has sailed? 

 

I want to make it clear that am I a huge supporter of this project and can only applaud Hattons for finally stepping up and serving us often neglected 'era 2-ers'. They obviously couldn't incorporate every style of coach into one, especially when there is this much and this sort of variety. I just thought that as they are producing a GNR set in batch 1 I'd share my thoughts and maybe nudge Hattons (or any other manufacturers reading for that matter!) to go the extra step for those of us interested in the GNR. There are of course many models that would be suitable for these and if a coach as obscure as the LSWR gate can be made successfully (and without appearing in pre-group colours that would have arguably been more popular than the SR variants) then maybe these can too. As a side note, I remember Rapido writing in their somewhat short novel of an instruction booklet for the Stirling Single that came out a few years ago that they would possibly make suitable period GNR coaches to go with their beast. Maybe someone could remind them?

 

Anyway, just my thoughts, if anyone has any info or opinion about this so called 'issue' I would be very interested to hear it.

 

Kindest regards,

 

Otis

 

[PhilJ W]

Oh no not again!

Edited August 20, 2020 by PhilJ W

[chris p bacon]

13 minutes ago, Otis JB said:

Now I am definitely no expert in anything, even less of one in the in and outs of old coaching stock but by no stretch of my imagination do the Genesis vehicles match the real life GN examples.

 

They don't match the Howlden stock in any way shape or form ....but....the GN did aquire coaches from Metropolitan Cammell very early in it's life (1865) and the Hattons coaches do have a passing resemblence to those.

I haven't spent long comparing them but I might well pick something up at a later date and bash it into a Met Camm to see how it goes.

[Compound2632]

In terms of roof profile, the Genesis carriages do not match that of the Great Northern and North British. It is appropriate for the 1880s/early 1890s style of several companies such as the LSWR and GWR that later adopted a multi-arc or cove roof style.

 

In terms of panelling, they don't match the carriages of those companies that had a three layer panelling style, such as, again, the Great Northern and North British; or those with a style that had square corners for at least some of the panelling - notably the Great Eastern - or those that adopted the "Wolverton" style of panelling without separate eves and waist panels - LNWR, South Eastern/SECR, Furness, North Staffs.

 

In terms of both panelling and roof style, they could be considered representative of 1880s/early 1890s carriages of the Great Western, Midland, North Eastern, LSWR, LBSCR, Cambrian, Caledonian, and other lines, without being exact models of any of these.  

 

So I think it's evident that the design of these models is "generic" in the sense of being typical of the majority. I also think it's a mistake to argue for further body variants that are closer to, say, the GNR or LNWR styles, as these would still be inaccurate models in many respects, beginning with length. Better to hope that what Hattons are doing will demonstrate that there is a market for pre-grouping rolling stock, encouraging other manufacturers (or indeed Hattons themselves) to venture into the field of accurate models of specific prototypes to go with RTR pre-grouping locomotives. 

 

For instance, one could fantasize that the manufacturer of a LNWR Improved Precedent would follow through with a range of LNWR 42 ft non-corridor stock. 

[Otis JB]

4 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

In terms of roof profile, the Genesis carriages do not match that of the Great Northern and North British. It is appropriate for the 1880s/early 1890s style of several companies such as the LSWR and GWR that later adopted a multi-arc or cove roof style.

 

In terms of panelling, they don't match the carriages of those companies that had a three layer panelling style, such as, again, the Great Northern and North British; or those with a style that had square corners for at least some of the panelling - notably the Great Eastern - or those that adopted the "Wolverton" style of panelling without separate eves and waist panels - LNWR, South Eastern/SECR, Furness, North Staffs.

 

In terms of both panelling and roof style, they could be considered representative of 1880s/early 1890s carriages of the Great Western, Midland, North Eastern, LSWR, LBSCR, Cambrian, Caledonian, and other lines, without being exact models of any of these.  

 

So I think it's evident that the design of these models is "generic" in the sense of being typical of the majority. I also think it's a mistake to argue for further body variants that are closer to, say, the GNR or LNWR styles, as these would still be inaccurate models in many respects, beginning with length. Better to hope that what Hattons are doing will demonstrate that there is a market for pre-grouping rolling stock, encouraging other manufacturers (or indeed Hattons themselves) to venture into the field of accurate models of specific prototypes to go with RTR pre-grouping locomotives. 

 

For instance, one could fantasize that the manufacturer of a LNWR Improved Precedent would follow through with a range of LNWR 42 ft non-corridor stock. 

 

Thanks for the info Compound and my thoughts too. Hattons really are to be applauded and you cannot complain about what they are doing. You can't have everything either! 

 

Speaking of the LNWR, it's a shame that there really aren't any suitable RTR models to go with these new coaches. In my opinion, I find it strange that they were decided to be released in batch 1 as the majority of people who would have use for them, those with LNWR locos ie: kit/scratch built, would presumably already have kit/scratch built coaching stock. If I were Hattons I would've put the LSWR coaches in their place in the project as there are at least 4 RTR models for the period in the market atm. (I'm probably a bit biased situated in former LSW territory though!)

 

Kind regards,

 

Otis

[Compound2632]

40 minutes ago, Otis JB said:

Speaking of the LNWR, it's a shame that there really aren't any suitable RTR models to go with these new coaches.

 

There is the Bachmann Coal Tank - this class were extensively used on passenger workings as their brakes were inadequate for goods trains. From a suitable distance, the 4-wheelers might pass as 28 ft stock. They are at least the right length!

[maico]

On 18/08/2020 at 16:00, Buhar said:

It usually was in that period. Otherwise there was an unacceptable risk of a first class passenger encountering the general population. 

Alan 

 

German 3rd class types seem to have had less suffering... 2 or 3 wc per clerestory coach

[That Model Railway Guy]

Just saw that Hattons have added the LB&SCR livery artwork to one of their 3D renders. Gives a very good impression of what the finished model will look like. You can see it here: 

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/newsdetail.aspx?id=870&utm_campaign=mar-376-hattonsgenesisrender1%2Bartwork&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Klaviyo&_ke=eyJrbF9lbWFpbCI6ICJqb3NlZkBqb3NlZnBpdHVyYXJpbGV5LmNvbSIsICJrbF9jb21wYW55X2lkIjogIkpHUWVYaCJ9

Edited August 21, 2020 by That Model Railway Guy
Incorrect link.

[melmerby]

Available Q1 2020

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, That Model Railway Guy said:

Just saw that Hattons have added the LB&SCR livery artwork to one of their 3D renders. 

 

That does look to my eyes to be the most attractive livery in the first batch - relatively restrained and also fairly anonymous, which helps with the "Generic" feel.

[Colin_McLeod]

Genesis coach in BR blue and grey.

 

 

[SHMD]

"...the ancient six-wheel generator van (DE320104E)..."

 

I want one.

I need one!

 

 

Kev.

 

[phil gollin]

3 hours ago, Colin_McLeod said:

Genesis coach in BR blue and grey.

 

 

.

 

An absolutely amazing photograph which I would not have believed possible.

 

Thanks very much for posting.  ( And thanks to Harry Luff. )

 

.

[wainwright1]

Hi Dave.

 

I do not know if anyone has commented on this before.

I'll stick my head out and probably get it bitten off, but it will provide some food for thought.

 

I noticed on your train formations that you are showing an Isle of Wight train in Southern livery using a terrier with two four wheeled coaches and two six wheelers.

No problem with the terrier, but the suggested coaches used on the Isle of Wight were ex London Chatham and Dover coaches. I think that the ones in question all started life as six wheelers, most of these were either 28ft or 30ft long*. but were either already or were at the point of transfer converted to four wheelers. I do not think that any six wheelers ran on the island.

Now it might be possible to convert your six wheelers to four wheelers, the only problem being that the L.C. & D.R. ones were 30ft long whereas yours are going to be 32ft long and I think that they might look a bit stretched and ungainly. They would however need a new chassis with long diagonal braces visible on the solebars. Also your four wheelers will be just over 26ft long, so they would look a bit stubby in this context.

 

(I won't mention the fact the fact that the Chatham coaches had square cornered beading and yours have round).

 

That should set them off.

 

* There were a couple of odd 28ft 9in brakes that got over there which came from a previously converted four coach corridor connected set (2 brakes + 2 saloons) previously used on the Isle of Sheppey ! From memory, a couple of the coaches from this set and some others are preserved and restored at the isle of Wight Steam Railway.

 

Keep up the good work.

 

All the best

Ray

[Compound2632]

@wainwright1, I'm afraid like many others you are falling into the trap of believing that these models should look like a particular favoured prototype - at which point they would become specific rather than generic and cease to pass for anything else. At the moment they're wrong in detail for any prototype, without any detail being improbable. 

 

I'm mildly surprised that no Irish liveries have been offered - they'd certainly pass for GS&WR or MGWR, or in GSR or CIE livery up to the 1950s.

[Gibbo675]

45 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

@wainwright1, I'm afraid like many others you are falling into the trap of believing that these models should look like a particular favoured prototype - at which point they would become specific rather than generic and cease to pass for anything else. At the moment they're wrong in detail for any prototype, without any detail being improbable. 

 

I'm mildly surprised that no Irish liveries have been offered - they'd certainly pass for GS&WR or MGWR, or in GSR or CIE livery up to the 1950s.

Hi Stephen,

 

......................or heaven forbid that someone might actually do some modelling by repainting them into what they might require.

 

Gibbo.

[montyburns56]

I've found this picture of it at Wolverton in 1968 on Flickr.  Who's going to be the first to model this then?

 

 

 

[PhilJ W]

Here's an earlier picture.

 

[PhilJ W]

This might help.

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/118980-ger-ratio-coach-conversion-article/&tab=comments#comment-2580284

 

[phil_sutters]

3 hours ago, PhilJ W said:

Here's an earlier picture.

 

This should give you a larger version, especially if you click on it!! The coach it is coupled to looks interesting too, again you see more if you click..

 

Edited August 22, 2020 by phil_sutters

[Ravenser]

1 hour ago, montyburns56 said:

I've found this picture of it at Wolverton in 1968 on Flickr.  Who's going to be the first to model this then?

 

 

 

 

Well, if someone can do the LNER Dynometer car, this and the ex LNWR Cinema Car could be a starter as a pack...

 

Can be justified anywhere on the network, at any date between 1948 and 1970, in multiple liveries. Quite a short train, too

 

Luggage composite looks very plausible. Must be ex LNER , and if GE it must be late , as most GE 6 wheelers had round topped windows. 

 

That must have been the last passenger stock on wooden underframe on the network. Just possibly the last wooden underframe allowed out on the main line

Edited August 22, 2020 by Ravenser

[IWCR]

Following on from earlier post re IOW carriages.

Yes most of the SR era imports were LCDR many of which were originally Mainline six wheelers converted into 4 wheel Suburban stock around 10 years prior to transfer.

However there were five sets of LBSCR vehicles (2 Stroudley, 3 Billington), these had all been built as Suburban 4 wheelers.

The only 6 wheel passenger stock running was 2 ex Bembridge Line carriages which had been converted to full brakes during IWR days, these were withdrawn mid 20's.

 

Pete

[PhilJ W]

2 hours ago, phil_sutters said:

This should give you a larger version, especially if you click on it!! The coach it is couple to looks interesting too, again you see more if you click..

 

 

1 hour ago, Ravenser said:

 

Well, if someone can do the LNER Dynometer car, this and the ex LNWR Cinema Car could be a starter as a pack...

 

Can be justified anywhere on the network, at any date between 1948 and 1970, in multiple liveries. Quite a short train, too

 

Luggage composite looks very plausible. Must be ex LNER , and if GE it must be late , as most GE 6 wheelers had round topped windows. 

 

That must have been the last passenger stock on wooden underframe on the network. Just possibly the last wooden underframe allowed out on the main line

I think its a six compartment third. The later photograph (blue/grey) shows the door vents evenly spaced. The earlier photo, of the opposite side seems to show the door replaced with louvres and the vent moved to above the quarter-light.

[Otis JB]

On 21/08/2020 at 11:58, Compound2632 said:

 

There is the Bachmann Coal Tank - this class were extensively used on passenger workings as their brakes were inadequate for goods trains. From a suitable distance, the 4-wheelers might pass as 28 ft stock. They are at least the right length!

 

Oh thank you I wasn't aware of that! If I ever get the time I suppose there is always the option of London Road kits too. The good thing about making kits of LNWR locos is that you don't have to worry too much about intricate painting and lining! 

 

Otis 

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, Otis JB said:

 

Oh thank you I wasn't aware of that! If I ever get the time I suppose there is always the option of London Road kits too.

 

They also do a comprehensive range of LNWR 28 ft 4-wheelers!