'Genesis' 4 & 6 wheel coaches in OO Gauge - New Announcement

[jamespetts]

10 hours ago, Skinnylinny said:

Hi Dave, these are looking very nice!

I'm especially liking the way you've gone for the squared-off lining on the GNR carriages, as this disguises the round-edged panelling somewhat, and the blue-edged golden lining looks like it will be exquisite!

A quick thought - would it be possible to arrange to have the smoking compartments (I assume those are what the compartments with ventilators are meant to be!) have "Smoking" etched in the glazing (well, presumably printed in light grey on the inside of the glazing) where appropriate? For example, on the LBSCR ones, this was etched in a rectangle thus:



while other companies used different shapes, or stickers. The LSWR, for example, had etched oval shapes:


Image from https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:London_and_South-Western_Railway_carriage.jpg, CC copyright details at link. 

An example of the Southern's "No Smoking" stickers can be seen on the Isle of Wight Steam Railway stock, and a photo can be seen here:


Source: http://citytransport.info/Compartment.htm

Just another thing that could add a little extra railway-company-specific detailing through printing?

 

Splendid to see good use being made of the picture that I took at the NRM back in 2011 - it is always lovely to see people making use of Creative Commons licensed pictures.

 

Also, there's much to be said for a nice LBSCR 4 wheeler.

[Dunsignalling]

7 hours ago, Otis JB said:

For me it honestly depends on when I have the money. I am interested in a number of sets and would like to order each company version in a good number instead of individually ie: probably buying the sets of 4. To be honest though, the Genesis stock isn’t high up my priorities list at the moment with a Hornby W1 and various bits from rails already ordered. I, unlike some others, am not too worried about the availability of these coaches as I think (although I can in no way confirm) that they will have a big enough batch to last a good while. Hopefully they will be continually produced as a standard product also unlike the Andrew Barclay and P class. I think there would be more than enough demand to sustain that production model especially with the steady increase of pre group RTR. 
 

Kindest regards,

 

Otis

Clearly, the models themselves are intended to be "stayers", but I don't think it would be advisable to depend on particular liveries remaining available continuously.

 

The sheer number so far announced, let alone any more that might yet be, suggests to me that once those in the first tranche of releases have been made, production will inevitably need to switch to the next phase.

 

OK, there could well be re-runs of any liveries that prove especially popular, but there's no guarantee that my or your favourites will qualify. Even if they do, "repeats" might have to wait until the full sequence of announced releases has been completed, and that schedule already appears to extend over the better part of three years.

 

I don't require huge numbers of these, roughly a dozen all-told, but it's a fairly definite dozen and I've planned accordingly by pre-ordering  my wants from the first wave. Once I have them and am satisfied with the appearance and running quality, I'll place orders for those in the later phases,

 

John

 

 

[PhilJ W]

4 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

Clearly, the models themselves are intended to be "stayers", but I don't think it would be advisable to depend on particular liveries remaining available continuously.

 

The sheer number so far announced, let alone any more that might yet be, suggests to me that once those in the first tranche of releases have been made, production will inevitably need to switch to the next phase.

 

OK, there could well be re-runs of any liveries that prove especially popular, but there's no guarantee that my or your favourites will qualify. Even if they do, "repeats" might have to wait until the full sequence of announced releases has been completed, and that schedule already appears to extend over the better part of three years.

 

I don't require huge numbers of these, roughly a dozen all-told, but it's a fairly definite dozen and I've planned accordingly by pre-ordering  my wants from the first wave. Once I have them and am satisfied with the appearance and running quality, I'll place orders for those in the later phases,

 

John

 

 

They would probably follow the pattern of Oxford Diecast. Once a particular colour/livery/finish has sold out unless there is still a huge demand thats it. From time to time models do reappear in the catalogue but the majority seem to be the slow sellers rather than another run of a popular model.

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, PhilJ W said:

They would probably follow the pattern of Oxford Diecast. Once a particular colour/livery/finish has sold out unless there is still a huge demand thats it. From time to time models do reappear in the catalogue but the majority seem to be the slow sellers rather than another run of a popular model.

 

Many, many, years ago my mother-in-law worked in a department store. She tells the tale of the camel-coloured coats. These sold out quickly, unlike the otherwise identical grey version, which was a drag on the market. The manager put in for another batch of camel, only to be told no, couldn't have any, as there was still unsold stock of grey. One might just be able to get away with such an approach in the Grace Bros era but surely nowadays failure to meet pent-up demand is the road to ruin?

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Many, many, years ago my mother-in-law worked in a department store. She tells the tale of the camel-coloured coats. These sold out quickly, unlike the otherwise identical grey version, which was a drag on the market. The manager put in for another batch of camel, only to be told no, couldn't have any, as there was still unsold stock of grey. One might just be able to get away with such an approach in the Grace Bros era but surely nowadays failure to meet pent-up demand is the road to ruin?

The trick is identifying and (even harder) quantifying pent-up demand. Murphy's Law dictates that, sometimes, the last of the first run will sell to almost the last person who wanted one, even if they do go quickly. It also predicts it will happen rather more often than you'd expect! The rapidity with which models get discounted to clear suggests that overstocking is regarded as by far the greater of the two evils. The aim of the game is sell the entire batch a.s.a.p. and achieve the budgeted return from it. Whether more could have been sold is neither here nor there.

 

Nowadays, in the overcoat example, the manager would more likely be castigated by head office for ordering too many grey ones than praised for generating extra demand for the sold-out camel variety!

 

Various loco kit producers had/have a facility to register an interest in out-of-production items, with those attracting the most "votes" going to the top of the list for re-runs.

 

Hatton's offer a "Wishlist" service to notify customers when a sought-after model turns up in their pre-owned department. I can testify to its effectiveness, and there's no reason why it couldn't also be used to gauge demand for re-runs of their own products. 

 

John  

Edited August 25, 2020 by Dunsignalling

[PhilJ W]

Not necessarily so, certainly not in the diecast market. For every camel coloured coat a diecast model will sell in hundreds if not in thousands. A lot of other factors come in to play as well such as changes in the production line since the original model was produced. Also production facilities in China are booked well in advance so its not that easy to produce a second run. Its hard for manufacturers sometimes to predict demand so they tend to over order. With production costs so low they can afford to do so with sufficient profit on the first sales to make it worth their while. A prime example of this practice is the London Transport Museum shop. They will stock an item and say order 120 of that item. They expect to make an overall £500 profit on the sale of those 120 items so they 'mark up' each individual item by £5. Once 100 have been sold they have made their profit and the warehouse space is required. If the price they were sold at was £50 just to get rid of the stock they would sell the items off at knock down prices, £50 could be cut to as little as £10. Last year the LT museum sold off a number of Heljans Metropolitan Bo-Bo locomotives at £34 each and earlier this year they sold off the 'S' stock models at a very low price, less than £100 IIRC. Now both those models are selling at ridiculous prices, just check on e-bay.

[Wickham Green too]

16 hours ago, wainwright1 said:

I think that they are already available on the Methix/Pressfix Southern Coach transfer sheets.

Yes the 'target' style SMOKING & NON SMOKING stickers are, indeed available as transfers ........ BUT that style was only used from the mid thirties and seems to have disappeared before nationalisation. Many coaches retained the earlier etched lozenge into BR days - sometimes with the later triangular 'nosmo' added ( The Southern version was red on white unlike the BR version ).

[Hattons Dave]

On 24/08/2020 at 14:26, Skinnylinny said:

Hi Dave, these are looking very nice!

I'm especially liking the way you've gone for the squared-off lining on the GNR carriages, as this disguises the round-edged panelling somewhat, and the blue-edged golden lining looks like it will be exquisite!

A quick thought - would it be possible to arrange to have the smoking compartments (I assume those are what the compartments with ventilators are meant to be!) have "Smoking" etched in the glazing (well, presumably printed in light grey on the inside of the glazing) where appropriate? For example, on the LBSCR ones, this was etched in a rectangle thus:



while other companies used different shapes, or stickers. The LSWR, for example, had etched oval shapes:


Image from https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:London_and_South-Western_Railway_carriage.jpg, CC copyright details at link. 

An example of the Southern's "No Smoking" stickers can be seen on the Isle of Wight Steam Railway stock, and a photo can be seen here:


Source: http://citytransport.info/Compartment.htm

Just another thing that could add a little extra railway-company-specific detailing through printing?

Hi Skinnylinny (and all)
 

Thanks for the suggestion. These signs are planned to be added to some of the liveries we've not shown yet, but we can add the Smoking signs to the liveries already shown and we're keen to do so where appropriate.
 

Whilst we've come across a number of the signs during our research we'd appreciate any further info any of you may have, in particular covering the pre-grouping eras.
 

If any useful info can be sent to ideas@hattons.co.uk it'd be appreciated.
 

Cheers,
 

Dave

[paul 27]

With out reading thru all these 80 pages, are there any comments on the red departmental types, are they

correct circa 1960s  any pictures please.

[Compound2632]

12 minutes ago, paul 27 said:

With out reading thru all these 80 pages, are there any comments on the red departmental types, are they

correct circa 1960s  any pictures please.

 

Correct in what sense? These carriages are generic, so are by definition not correct for particular prototypes. Looking through Paul Bartlett's site, I couldn't find anything relevant but I may have been looking in the wrong places. Some examples of arc-roof 6-wheelers at Aston here, but you'll note that two of the three (one ex-Midland, the other ex-LNWR) have been given vertical tongue-and-groove boarding above the waist - a common Midland / LMS practice for old carriages rebuilt as mess or tool vans; only the ex-LNWR centre luggage tricomposite is externally more-or-less as built. I wouldn't like to say what colour those three vehicles are.

 

I expect examples closer to the Hattons model might be found at Eastern or North Eastern Region depots.

Edited August 25, 2020 by Compound2632

[Otis JB]

On 24/08/2020 at 20:45, barrymx5 said:

Interesting Otis. No concerns about 6 wheeler running reliability then?

I believe that Jenny Kirk conducted a Hattons interview about the Genesis project a few months ago where she brought up the potential issue of the middle wheel. The Hattons interviewee replied that they were going to use a pivot mechanism that had already been successfully utilised on some continental HO models, or so I remember. 
 

I had actually forgotten about the potential issue of a middle wheel set although I have recently filed down the flange on the middle wheels of my Hornby LMS milk tanker Because of previous issues so I should really take the possibility of poor performance into consideration. That being said- I still want them all! 
 

Regards,

 

Otis

[MarkSG]

Long wheelbase 6-wheelers will always be a problem on train set curves (and, let's face it, most of us have got train set curves), so it will be interesting to see how Hattons approach this. A sliding centre axle is probably the obvious choice, but that's not as easy on a relatively detailed model as it was on the old, coarser stuff such as the Hornby Palethorpes van. The idea of a pivot mechanism is intriguing, but I'm struggling to visualise how it works. Does anyone have any links to models where it's in use?

 

That said, it won't stop me buying one. The layout I'll be using it on, at least initially, is a simple straight end-to-end so, possibly a little unusually for me, it doesn't actually have any train set curves. I'm sure it will be fine on that, but I'll also see how it runs on the test oval. If that's not a problem either, then I may shell out on a couple more for other possible scenarios.

[Hattons Dave]

Hi all,

We're heading West for today's set of colour layouts, showcasing the Hattons Genesis coach releases in GWR chocolate and cream.

You can view full images and place orders via the link below:

 

Hattons Genesis - GWR colour layouts.

 

As always, I'm interested in any feedback so feel free to share your thoughts here or via the Disqus tab on our website.

Cheers,

Dave

 

 

[Ian Hargrave]

1 hour ago, MarkSG said:

Long wheelbase 6-wheelers will always be a problem on train set curves (and, let's face it, most of us have got train set curves), so it will be interesting to see how Hattons approach this. A sliding centre axle is probably the obvious choice, but that's not as easy on a relatively detailed model as it was on the old, coarser stuff such as the Hornby Palethorpes van. The idea of a pivot mechanism is intriguing, but I'm struggling to visualise how it works. Does anyone have any links to models where it's in use?

 

That said, it won't stop me buying one. The layout I'll be using it on, at least initially, is a simple straight end-to-end so, possibly a little unusually for me, it doesn't actually have any train set curves. I'm sure it will be fine on that, but I'll also see how it runs on the test oval. If that's not a problem either, then I may shell out on a couple more for other possible scenarios.

Continental HO gauge has used the sliding central axle with success for years ....detail notwithstanding.

[Ronny]

Those GWR color schemes are making me go weak at the knees, gorgeous!

[57xx]

2 hours ago, Hattons Dave said:

Hi all,

We're heading West for today's set of colour layouts, showcasing the Hattons Genesis coach releases in GWR chocolate and cream.

You can view full images and place orders via the link below:

 

Hattons Genesis - GWR colour layouts.

 

As always, I'm interested in any feedback so feel free to share your thoughts here or via the Disqus tab on our website.

Cheers,

Dave

 

 

 

Hi Dave, I think you need to be painting the buffer shanks black, not silver. Silver would only be correct for the chrome on modern hydraulic buffers, not pre-grouping sprung buffers.

cheers

[Wickham Green too]

24 minutes ago, 57xx said:

 

Hi Dave, I think you need to be painting the buffer shanks black, not silver. Silver would only be correct for the chrome on modern hydraulic buffers, not pre-grouping sprung buffers.

cheers

And a few other manufacturers - who might be reading this - should take note too !

[57xx]

@Hattons Dave

Just been looking at the 3D renders, very nice. I've noticed a couple of things though. On the 4 wheel coaches I can see gas lamp tops are modelled but there is no gas tank on the underframe? Actually checking some of the 6 wheel coach renders I cant see a gas tank on them, though can on the LB&SCR livery render and livery artwork. Presuming you have added them since 4th August CADs were uploaded?

 

Also the brake rodding coming from the centre shaft should be running along the centre line of the coach, not offset as they are. Normally they'd be connecting to levers that connect to the centre of the pull "rods" (triangles in this case).

[Skinnylinny]

These are looking really nice! I have to admit to not being as knowledgeable about GWR stock as I am about pre-grouping Southern stuff, but it looks like there might be a few "glitches" in the lining - worth double-checking? I noticed the tri-composite 6-wheeler where the upper panelling had lining issues here, where the brown inner lining on the cream panels looks to be over-long:


And the 6-wheel full brake has the opposite problem - the lining isn't long enough in this panel to the right of the centre door:

And is completely missing from the second panel from the left (at window height):



So looking really good but worth double-checking each panel!

Edited August 26, 2020 by Skinnylinny

[wainwright1]

1 hour ago, Skinnylinny said:

And is completely missing from the second panel from the left (at window height). 

 

 

Is that not the top of the ducket. Should it have lining ?

 

All the best

Ray

[Skinnylinny]

Nope - the ducket is to the left of the door. 

That being said, normally GWR carriages in this livery would have another cream panel at the top of the ducket, but GWR-pattern duckets had a curved top, tucking in under the roof line. However, the Hattons carriages have a flat-topped ducket so there isn't anywhere for that panel to exist.

[JeremyKarl]

7 hours ago, Hattons Dave said:

 

 

 

I like the subtle difference in the livery crests of the 1st class and 2nd/3rd class coaches (which I believe is correct) 

Edited August 26, 2020 by JeremyKarl
Deleted excess text

[NCB]

12 hours ago, MarkSG said:

Long wheelbase 6-wheelers will always be a problem on train set curves (and, let's face it, most of us have got train set curves), so it will be interesting to see how Hattons approach this. A sliding centre axle is probably the obvious choice, but that's not as easy on a relatively detailed model as it was on the old, coarser stuff such as the Hornby Palethorpes van. The idea of a pivot mechanism is intriguing, but I'm struggling to visualise how it works. Does anyone have any links to models where it's in use?

 

That said, it won't stop me buying one. The layout I'll be using it on, at least initially, is a simple straight end-to-end so, possibly a little unusually for me, it doesn't actually have any train set curves. I'm sure it will be fine on that, but I'll also see how it runs on the test oval. If that's not a problem either, then I may shell out on a couple more for other possible scenarios.

 

If they can engineer it, a Cleminson arrangement would work fine. I once built 3 Cambrian 6-wheelers with a rigid chassis and needless to say they'd hardly go around anything. So I rebuilt one with a Cleminson arrangement, and low and behold it would go around 12" radius curves, no problem.  The nice thing about Cleminson is that not only are the individual wheelsets following the curve more, but the end wheels are pivoted to be much flatter against the rails. I'm sure Hatton's could do this if they wished; better a slightly more complex arrangement which works than a half-hearted one which doesn't.

[GWR-fan]

I do find it ironic that while these are intended to be and actually are generic coaches,  the livery is being discussed as if the models are prototypical.  I can understand the modeller's "need" to be as accurate as is possible,  however, these are not scale models.  I applaud Hattons for their bravery in releasing generic models as no doubt they knew that they would be in for some criticism,  mostly of which is constructive.

[Dunsignalling]

7 hours ago, NCB said:

 

If they can engineer it, a Cleminson arrangement would work fine. I once built 3 Cambrian 6-wheelers with a rigid chassis and needless to say they'd hardly go around anything. So I rebuilt one with a Cleminson arrangement, and low and behold it would go around 12" radius curves, no problem.  The nice thing about Cleminson is that not only are the individual wheelsets following the curve more, but the end wheels are pivoted to be much flatter against the rails. I'm sure Hatton's could do this if they wished; better a slightly more complex arrangement which works than a half-hearted one which doesn't.

The sliding centre axle arrangement has been working just fine on continental r-t-r models longer than these for decades. The outer wheels aren't an issue unless you still use 13-inch radius Tri-ang Series 3 track . My LNER CCT and SR BY vans (both Hornby r-t-r and Parkside kits) all run quite happily round No.2 radius curves and they are at least as long in the wheelbase as these coaches. 

 

Admittedly, it doesn't use the Cleminson arrangement, but the wholly excessive flexibility provided in the Dapol-for-Hornby-Magazine Stove R is why it looks rubbish unless its underpinnings are hidden behind a platform. The thing has the potential to go round curves that would look daft in OO9, let alone OO but requires silly 11mm wheels to make it feasible. Had they used a similar arrangement but with only sufficient movement to go round No.2 curves, they could have used the proper 14mm diameter.

 

An ostensibly crude but practically (and visually) superior solution features in the Chivers LMS Fish van kit; a non-rotating middle wheelset with flats on the bottom to clear the rails. You actually don't notice the con unless observing at track level from eighteen inches away and I'm copying it on the new chassis I'm building for my Hornby Palethorpes van.

 

I'll be happy so long as Hatton's don't go down the Stove R route, and from what I've seen so far, they have no such intention.

 

John

Edited August 27, 2020 by Dunsignalling