'Genesis' 4 & 6 wheel coaches in OO Gauge - New Announcement

[PhilJ W]

The flickering lights could be due to the camera rather than the lights.

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, Skinnylinny said:

It could be argued that there's little point in adding the lighting if it's so dim you can't see it. That being said, the best of both worlds would be having a small potentiometer to allow the end customer to set their desired brightness level. I assume this is an option if using a DCC decoder, but I'm old fashioned and using DC. 

If you are running with the coach lights on, you should be running with the layout lights off.

 

Personally, I dislike the latter when that part of the timetable comes around on friends' layouts so have taken a conscious decision that my own layout will only be equipped with artificial sunshine, apart from the table lamps in my Pullmans.

 

John

Edited September 28, 2020 by Dunsignalling

[Compound2632]

26 minutes ago, maico said:

I hope that the batch 3 SDJR trundles along in due course

 

 

A timely reminder that my earlier comments on Midland / LMS livery apply to S&DJR livery, simply substituting blue for red!

Edited September 28, 2020 by Compound2632

[Wickham Green too]

5 hours ago, Ravenser said:

 

Interesting question - is it stood on 4'8.5" gauge track or 5'3"?? 

 

It would seem extravagant to regauge /rebogie a coach to stand on a detached bit of plain track

It's on standard gauge track ........ Irish standard gauge, that is .................. don't forget there were zillions of bogies available when the Irish Rail Mk!!!s got the chop.

[Zunnan]

8 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

Would have liked to see some closer shots of the six-wheelers going over some crossovers/slips.

 

 

Sams Trains (I know...) gave them probably the worst track you could expect. They didn't seem too phased being propelled over second radius reverse curves but he did report the 6 wheelers sliding axle occasionally sticking and causing the offending ehicle to derail. Considering his floor setup, I'm not too surprised. To be honest, I would have expected more than the handful of derailments he declared after an hour 'playing'!

 

The one thing I didn't like was the arrangement for powering the lighting. I know these are EPs and subject to change, but I really hope they blacken those metal contacts somewhat as they're really quite surprisingly visible. Really looking forward to these now, and for more than just the odd engineers train example I was originally intending on.

[SDJR7F88]

3 hours ago, maico said:

I hope that the batch 3 SDJR trundles along in due course

 

Fingers crossed! Was really surprised that SDJR was not in one of the earlier batches with the number of SDJR locos made over the years, waiting for something to haul behind them

Edited September 28, 2020 by SDJR7F88

[sem34090]

"Number of SDJR locos"

 

'Scuse my ignorance, but what S&D locos have we seen that these would be a fair partner to?

[Compound2632]

28 minutes ago, sem34090 said:

"Number of SDJR locos"

 

'Scuse my ignorance, but what S&D locos have we seen that these would be a fair partner to?

 

Nil. By the time the 2P 4-4-0s came along, there were enough of the 46 ft bogie carriages for the "main line" trains those engines worked. Of course we might get the Bachmann 1532 Class in SDJR livery as No. 54, but even that didn't arrive until 1920 and then still in red though lettered SDJR. The earliest RTR SDJR locomotive made to date is the 7F 2-8-0; the first batch of those arrived in 1914 and the last of the bogie carriages was built in 1913. I doubt they saw any use on passenger trains until the 1950s. Any other RTR SDJR locomotives represent types that arrived in the 1920s - the Bulldogs in their rebuilt form as 3Fs and the Bagnall 3F tank engines.

 

But none of that is going to bother anyone who is sufficiently determined. 

 

Some SDJR carriages spent most of their time on Midland metals, being used on semi-fast trains between Bristol, Birmingham, Derby and Nottingham according to the 1911 carriage marshalling instructions - these were bogie carriages with lavatories. I believe this was done to balance the mileage worked over the SDJR by Midland carriages on the through trains between Bournemouth and the North. Before the introduction of the bogie carriages, 6-wheelers may have been used; 6-wheel centre-luggage composite No. 16 was recorded at Manchester Central in 1925. 

Edited September 28, 2020 by Compound2632

[sem34090]

That sort of confirms what I thought, but I wasn't entirely sure of the dates.

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, sem34090 said:

That sort of confirms what I thought, but I wasn't entirely sure of the dates.

 

My reference for the locomotive dates is D. Bradley & D. Milton, Somerset & Dorset Locomotive History (David & Charles, 1973). The reference to No. 16 at Manchester Central is from G. Dow, Midland Style (HMRS, 1975) while my reference for carriage building dates is R, Garner, The Somerset & Dorset Joint Railway Locomotive and Rolling Sock Registers 1886-1930 (The Somerset & Dorset Railway Trust, 2000)*. 

 

The following mapping applies:

• Hattons 6-wheel third: moderately close to the numerous SDJR 6-wheel thirds, built by Oldbury, Cravens, and Highbridge in the late 1880s/early 1890s; these were identical to the standard Midland 6-wheel third - the major difference is that these were a foot shorter than the Hattons carriages and had a turn-under / tumblehome to the ends.
• Hattons 6-wheel brake third: something like the five SDJR 6-wheel brake thirds built by Cravens except that these had only two passenger compartments; like the thirds these were a foot shorter and had tumblehome ends.
• Hattons 6-wheel lavatory composite: the SDJR had no lavatory 6-wheelers but quite a few centre-luggage composites; these were also a foot shorter than the Hattons carriages and had tumblehome ends. They also had a flatter roof profile - 10 ft radius arc rather than 8 ft.
• Hattons 6-wheel brake: really quite close to the SDJR 6-wheel brakes though these were 2 ft shorter; they did, however, have flat ends like the Hattons carriages. The SDJR brakes either had the flatter arc roofs or the later LSWR-style elliptical roof.
• Hattons 4-wheel third: no a good match; SDJR 4-wheel thirds were shorter - 22'6" is one recorded length - with only 4 compartments; flat ends and the lower arc roof.
• Hattons 4-wheel first or composite: there were a number of four-compartment firsts and composites like the restored No. 4, these were mostly 5" longer than the Hattons carriage and were all 6-wheeled; however there were some earlier 4-wheel composites that were very like but a bit shorter.
• Hattons 4-wheel third brake: there were some rather similar SDJR carriages but they seem mostly to have had the guard's lookout not at the end but inboard, with the guard's compartment door at the end; on the other hand there were some 4-wheel brakes with the lookouts at the end.

The 4-wheelers were all replaced by bogie carriages in the first decade of the 20th century if they had not already been replaced by 6-wheelers in the 1890s.

 

*Boy do I get fed up of typing that reference out!

[barrymx5]

1 hour ago, sem34090 said:

"Number of SDJR locos"

 

'Scuse my ignorance, but what S&D locos have we seen that these would be a fair partner to?

What about the 1P? Bachmann have already shown  prototypes 

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, barrymx5 said:

What about the 1P? Bachmann have already shown  prototypes 

 

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

Of course we might get the Bachmann 1532 Class in SDJR livery as No. 54, but even that didn't arrive until 1920 and then still in red though lettered SDJR.

 

The native S&DJR 0-4-4Ts - the Avonsides - represent an earlier stage in the evolution of the Johnson 0-4-4T and have significant dimensional differences to the Midland 1532 Class represented by the forthcoming Bachmann model. The engine I mentioned was supplied by the Midland as a replacement for the original No. 54 that had been withdrawn owing to frame damage.

Edited September 28, 2020 by Compound2632

[truffy]

Phew! Modelling era3 is so much easier!

[Compound2632]

34 minutes ago, truffy said:

Phew! Modelling era3 is so much easier!

 

Nothing like a challenge!

[SDJR7F88]

11 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

My reference for the locomotive dates is D. Bradley & D. Milton, Somerset & Dorset Locomotive History (David & Charles, 1973). The reference to No. 16 at Manchester Central is from G. Dow, Midland Style (HMRS, 1975) while my reference for carriage building dates is R, Garner, The Somerset & Dorset Joint Railway Locomotive and Rolling Sock Registers 1886-1930 (The Somerset & Dorset Railway Trust, 2000)*. 

 

The following mapping applies:

• Hattons 6-wheel third: moderately close to the numerous SDJR 6-wheel thirds, built by Oldbury, Cravens, and Highbridge in the late 1880s/early 1890s; these were identical to the standard Midland 6-wheel third - the major difference is that these were a foot shorter than the Hattons carriages and had a turn-under / tumblehome to the ends.
• Hattons 6-wheel brake third: something like the five SDJR 6-wheel brake thirds built by Cravens except that these had only two passenger compartments; like the thirds these were a foot shorter and had tumblehome ends.
• Hattons 6-wheel lavatory composite: the SDJR had no lavatory 6-wheelers but quite a few centre-luggage composites; these were also a foot shorter than the Hattons carriages and had tumblehome ends. They also had a flatter roof profile - 10 ft radius arc rather than 8 ft.
• Hattons 6-wheel brake: really quite close to the SDJR 6-wheel brakes though these were 2 ft shorter; they did, however, have flat ends like the Hattons carriages. The SDJR brakes either had the flatter arc roofs or the later LSWR-style elliptical roof.
• Hattons 4-wheel third: no a good match; SDJR 4-wheel thirds were shorter - 22'6" is one recorded length - with only 4 compartments; flat ends and the lower arc roof.
• Hattons 4-wheel first or composite: there were a number of four-compartment firsts and composites like the restored No. 4, these were mostly 5" longer than the Hattons carriage and were all 6-wheeled; however there were some earlier 4-wheel composites that were very like but a bit shorter.
• Hattons 4-wheel third brake: there were some rather similar SDJR carriages but they seem mostly to have had the guard's lookout not at the end but inboard, with the guard's compartment door at the end; on the other hand there were some 4-wheel brakes with the lookouts at the end.

The 4-wheelers were all replaced by bogie carriages in the first decade of the 20th century if they had not already been replaced by 6-wheelers in the 1890s.

 

*Boy do I get fed up of typing that reference out!

Thanks for all the info. Honestly didn't know the 4-wheelers were gone that early! Though my reference on the number of locos was referring to the number of models available on the market in the livery (both real and fictitious) compared to other pre-grouping liveries

Edited September 29, 2020 by SDJR7F88

[Compound2632]

28 minutes ago, SDJR7F88 said:

Though my reference on the number of locos was referring to the number of models available on the market in the livery (both real and fictitious) compared to other pre-grouping liveries

That's true enough except for the anomaly that S&DJR blue, like M&GN brown, is a post-grouping as well as pre-grouping livery; all the models that have appeared in it authentically are post-1923 locomotives. 

 

Of course you can perfectly realistically have an S&DJR 6-wheel carriage alongside a blue 7F, if modelling Washford before the recent debacle.

[TonyMay]

15 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

My reference for the locomotive dates is D. Bradley & D. Milton, Somerset & Dorset Locomotive History (David & Charles, 1973). The reference to No. 16 at Manchester Central is from G. Dow, Midland Style (HMRS, 1975) while my reference for carriage building dates is R, Garner, The Somerset & Dorset Joint Railway Locomotive and Rolling Sock Registers 1886-1930 (The Somerset & Dorset Railway Trust, 2000)*. 

 

The following mapping applies:

• Hattons 6-wheel third: moderately close to the numerous SDJR 6-wheel thirds, built by Oldbury, Cravens, and Highbridge in the late 1880s/early 1890s; these were identical to the standard Midland 6-wheel third - the major difference is that these were a foot shorter than the Hattons carriages and had a turn-under / tumblehome to the ends.
• Hattons 6-wheel brake third: something like the five SDJR 6-wheel brake thirds built by Cravens except that these had only two passenger compartments; like the thirds these were a foot shorter and had tumblehome ends.
• Hattons 6-wheel lavatory composite: the SDJR had no lavatory 6-wheelers but quite a few centre-luggage composites; these were also a foot shorter than the Hattons carriages and had tumblehome ends. They also had a flatter roof profile - 10 ft radius arc rather than 8 ft.
• Hattons 6-wheel brake: really quite close to the SDJR 6-wheel brakes though these were 2 ft shorter; they did, however, have flat ends like the Hattons carriages. The SDJR brakes either had the flatter arc roofs or the later LSWR-style elliptical roof.
• Hattons 4-wheel third: no a good match; SDJR 4-wheel thirds were shorter - 22'6" is one recorded length - with only 4 compartments; flat ends and the lower arc roof.
• Hattons 4-wheel first or composite: there were a number of four-compartment firsts and composites like the restored No. 4, these were mostly 5" longer than the Hattons carriage and were all 6-wheeled; however there were some earlier 4-wheel composites that were very like but a bit shorter.
• Hattons 4-wheel third brake: there were some rather similar SDJR carriages but they seem mostly to have had the guard's lookout not at the end but inboard, with the guard's compartment door at the end; on the other hand there were some 4-wheel brakes with the lookouts at the end.

The 4-wheelers were all replaced by bogie carriages in the first decade of the 20th century if they had not already been replaced by 6-wheelers in the 1890s.

 

*Boy do I get fed up of typing that reference out!

 

You appear to be struggling with the basic concept of generic coaches.  I think the four wheel brake third (or "brake ferd" as the Hattons bloke calls them) would look good in SD&JR blue, regardless of actual authenticity.

[PhilJ W]

I thought the four wheel brake third looked very Great Eastern. And before anyone takes me to task over that they are generic coaches after all.

[sem34090]

Generic though they may be I think many of us intend using them to represent real vehicles from those companies. So if I were modelling the S&D in, say, 1915 I probably wouldn't want to make use of the 4-Wheelers nice though they'll look.

 

Does anyone know if there are were any Cambrian vehicles remotely like these? I was thinking a couple might be nice in GWR livery to represent ex-Cambrian types and add a bit of variety amongst the Ratio 4-Wheelers I'm also likely to use.

[GreenGiraffe22]

I get a lot of Southern vibes from the carriages which is good for me, as said previously ,being in a grouping or post-grouping livery the carriages could be from anywhere =)

[Colin_McLeod]

6 minutes ago, TonyMay said:

 

You appear to be struggling with the basic concept of generic coaches.  I think the four wheel brake third (or "brake ferd" as the Hattons bloke calls them) would look good in SD&JR blue, regardless of actual authenticity.

 

A few decades ago these would have been described as freelance models.  By definition a free lance model can't be inaccurate as there is no prototype to compare it with.

 

Congratulations to Hattons for developing  this range of coaches in various liveries and modification capabilities. They will enable many modellers to run trains with period atmosphere.

[SDJR7F88]

4 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Of course you can perfectly realistically have an S&DJR 6-wheel carriage alongside a blue 7F, if modelling Washford before the recent debacle.

All ready got a Peckett at the ready...

[Joseph the L&YR lover]

i assume if the coaches don't exactly work in time periods you just use rule 1 

[Nick Holliday]

1 hour ago, sem34090 said:

Generic though they may be I think many of us intend using them to represent real vehicles from those companies. 

Does anyone know if there are were any Cambrian vehicles remotely like these? I was thinking a couple might be nice in GWR livery to represent ex-Cambrian types and add a bit of variety amongst the Ratio 4-Wheelers I'm also likely to use.

You've obviously missed this thread  

 

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, TonyMay said:

You appear to be struggling with the basic concept of generic coaches.  

 

By no means. If you read back through this topic you will see that I have consistently advocated making these freelance models look as realistic as possible by adopting those features that were common to many different companies' designs and eschewing those features that are untypical or too characteristic of a particular company. The result is that the do end up looking more like some companies' carriages than others. I took the example of S&DJR carriages, since those happened to be under discussion, to illustrate the degree of approximation in a particular case. As it happens, in general style the Hattons carriages are very like S&DJR carriages, because the S&DJR carriage style was very typical of carriage design in the last quarter of the 19th century, with none of the divergent features that make, say, Great Northern carriages so distinctive and recognisable.

 

1 hour ago, sem34090 said:

Does anyone know if there are were any Cambrian vehicles remotely like these? I was thinking a couple might be nice in GWR livery to represent ex-Cambrian types and add a bit of variety amongst the Ratio 4-Wheelers I'm also likely to use.

 

EDIT: @Nick Holliday posted while I was writing; I'd missed the topic he links to which gives fuller and more authoritative information on Cambrian carriages. I should evidently visit the Railways of Wales sub-forum more often!

 

I have a copy of an article on Cambrian 6-wheelers by M.E. Morton Lloyd from the Model Railway Constructor; unfortunately I don't know what issue. I had it from Andy @uax6. This shows carriages that are very close in style to the generic; all have flat ends. They are, however, all rather shorter than the 32 ft of the Hattons carriages. There's a five-compt third, 28'6" over end panels, and a full brake, 28'2" long. Six of the thirds were built in 1887 with four surviving to grouping, GW Nos. 4056/57/60/61, the last being condemned in Aug 1929. Five of the full brakes were built in 1885/8 with three gaining GW Nos. 111-3, two being withdrawn in June 1923 and  No. 111 in Feb 1925.

 

The article also has drawings of two designs of composite: a 29'6"-long centre luggage tricomposite T/S/Lug/F/T with the slightly unusual feature of droplights to the luggage compartment doors; and a rather splendid 32 ft lavatory tricomposite F(coupé)/Lav/T/Lug/T/Lav/S(coupé), the coupé compartments having end widows. 

 

These carriages are all drawn with oil lamps.

 

Andy also sent me part of an article dated Dec 1963 on Brecon & Merthyr carriages; from the style I think also by Morton Lloyd. This has a couple of 26'9" 4-wheelers, a five-compartment third and a four-compartment first/second, that are very nice matches for the Hattons carriages. Three composites built in 1889 became GW Nos. 6137/38/46, with one lasting until April 1924. Seventeen of the thirds were given GW numbers; several were withdrawn in Dec 1922 but the last survivor held out until Aug 1927.

 

Again, they're drawn as gas lit.

 

Given the rapidity with which these carriages were withdrawn, I'd be doubtful if any were repainted in GW livery. The Cambrian livery of green and cream would look very attractive on them, though. 

 

Another green and cream livery is that of the Maryport & Carlisle. The Hattons 4-wheelers would be ideal to represent that company's carriages since I have absolutely no idea what they looked like, other than that there were no 6-wheelers!

 

Edited September 29, 2020 by Compound2632