'Genesis' 4 & 6 wheel coaches in OO Gauge - New Announcement

[Budgie]

17 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

My reference for the locomotive dates is D. Bradley & D. Milton, Somerset & Dorset Locomotive History (David & Charles, 1973). The reference to No. 16 at Manchester Central is from G. Dow, Midland Style (HMRS, 1975) while my reference for carriage building dates is R, Garner, The Somerset & Dorset Joint Railway Locomotive and Rolling Sock Registers 1886-1930 (The Somerset & Dorset Railway Trust, 2000)*. 

 

...

 

*Boy do I get fed up of typing that reference out!

 

Why? Why not save the reference, together with all the formatting, in a file, and use copy and paste every time you need to refer people to it.

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, Budgie said:

 

Why? Why not save the reference, together with all the formatting, in a file, and use copy and paste every time you need to refer people to it.

 

Indeed; that would be sensible. I have actually recently set up a Word document with all the handy fractions one needs when writing about carriage dimensions - e.g. ¹⁵⁄₁₆", along with such handy characters as é for coupé.

Edited September 29, 2020 by Compound2632

[Ravenser]

Just out of interest, does anyone know when the GSWR full brakes ceased to be used in parcels traffic?

 

I'm aware they are 1' shorter than the Hattons model, and that they survived until 1967 in departmental service in Scotland :

GSWR 6 wheeler, Elvansfoot Jan 67

Preserved GSWR full brake

 

However I don't model Scotland. I do run a kettle period on my modern image layout as a "funny trains" exercise to give my miscellaneous steam era stock an outing. Nominal date for this exercise is 1958, though a degree of flexibility is accepted, and the layout is set in the North Midlands. Since the centre platform and the loop is short , any non-bogie parcels stock is always of interest - and these look a better bet than the Hornby Mag Stove R

 

So - would any of these still be in parcels traffic in 1955-8??

 

Would a GSWR 

[NCB]

4 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

By no means. If you read back through this topic you will see that I have consistently advocated making these freelance models look as realistic as possible by adopting those features that were common to many different companies' designs and eschewing those features that are untypical or too characteristic of a particular company. The result is that the do end up looking more like some companies' carriages than others. I took the example of S&DJR carriages, since those happened to be under discussion, to illustrate the degree of approximation in a particular case. As it happens, in general style the Hattons carriages are very like S&DJR carriages, because the S&DJR carriage style was very typical of carriage design in the last quarter of the 19th century, with none of the divergent features that make, say, Great Northern carriages so distinctive and recognisable.

 

 

EDIT: @Nick Holliday posted while I was writing; I'd missed the topic he links to which gives fuller and more authoritative information on Cambrian carriages. I should evidently visit the Railways of Wales sub-forum more often!

 

I have a copy of an article on Cambrian 6-wheelers by M.E. Morton Lloyd from the Model Railway Constructor; unfortunately I don't know what issue. I had it from Andy @uax6. This shows carriages that are very close in style to the generic; all have flat ends. They are, however, all rather shorter than the 32 ft of the Hattons carriages. There's a five-compt third, 28'6" over end panels, and a full brake, 28'2" long. Six of the thirds were built in 1887 with four surviving to grouping, GW Nos. 4056/57/60/61, the last being condemned in Aug 1929. Five of the full brakes were built in 1885/8 with three gaining GW Nos. 111-3, two being withdrawn in June 1923 and  No. 111 in Feb 1925.

 

The article also has drawings of two designs of composite: a 29'6"-long centre luggage tricomposite T/S/Lug/F/T with the slightly unusual feature of droplights to the luggage compartment doors; and a rather splendid 32 ft lavatory tricomposite F(coupé)/Lav/T/Lug/T/Lav/S(coupé), the coupé compartments having end widows. 

 

These carriages are all drawn with oil lamps.

 

Andy also sent me part of an article dated Dec 1963 on Brecon & Merthyr carriages; from the style I think also by Morton Lloyd. This has a couple of 26'9" 4-wheelers, a five-compartment third and a four-compartment first/second, that are very nice matches for the Hattons carriages. Three composites built in 1889 became GW Nos. 6137/38/46, with one lasting until April 1924. Seventeen of the thirds were given GW numbers; several were withdrawn in Dec 1922 but the last survivor held out until Aug 1927.

 

Again, they're drawn as gas lit.

 

Given the rapidity with which these carriages were withdrawn, I'd be doubtful if any were repainted in GW livery. The Cambrian livery of green and cream would look very attractive on them, though. 

 

Another green and cream livery is that of the Maryport & Carlisle. The Hattons 4-wheelers would be ideal to represent that company's carriages since I have absolutely no idea what they looked like, other than that there were no 6-wheelers!

 

 

The MRC you've referred to is September 1964. Those coaches, plus a load of other useful information from Nick, are covered in the article he referenced above.

 

I have contemplated getting the some of Hattons SR coaches and sloshing some white on the panels for Cambrian coaches; the green isn't too far out. Alternatively, for post 2009 coaches the Cambrian used green all over, so just removing the insignia (I wonder how) and sticking on WRRC transfers could do a job. Don't know how close the roof furniture would be though.

 

Nigel

[Guardian]

Good evening,

 

Besides all the comments on details, has anybody realised that, according to the CAD's published recently,  the coaches will not provide for articulated couplings? In 2020? 

 

I would like to acquire such rake of coaches e.g. to go with era 2 GWR engines, but no articulated couplings? According to my files, the last passenger coach without articulated NEM coupling shafts has been acquired in 1988...

 

Cheers,

Mark

Edited September 29, 2020 by Guardian

[PaulRhB]

15 minutes ago, Guardian said:

 has anybody realised that, according to the CAD's published recently,  the coaches will not provide for articulated couplings? In 2020? 

 

I would like to acquire such rake of coaches e.g. to go with era 2 GWR engines, but no articulated couplings? According to my files, the last passenger coach without articulated NEM coupling shafts has been acquired in 1988...

I assume you mean a sprung extending close coupling? The VDA’s and VGA’s which are a similar wheelbase don’t need them. The swing out on a bogie coach is far bigger hence close coupling systems. It doesn’t look bad in the videos above so I guess a standard NEM pocket was chosen for it’s simplicity. 
 

The NEM pockets have side movement, you can see that in the video, and about the only thing I’d change is to substitute shorter couplings as I won’t be using R2 curves.

 

 

 

Edited September 29, 2020 by PaulRhB

[jcm@gwr]

17 minutes ago, Guardian said:

Good evening,

 

Besides all the comments on details, has anybody realised that, according to the CAD's published recently,  the coaches will not provide for articulated couplings? In 2020? 

 

I would like to acquire such rake of coaches e.g. to go with era 2 GWR engines, but no articulated couplings? According to my files, the last passenger coach without articulated NEM coupling shafts has been acquired in 1988...

 

Cheers,

Mark

 

You only really need that with coaches that have corridors to connect,

which none of these do.

[Skinnylinny]

22 minutes ago, Guardian said:

Good evening,

 

Besides all the comments on details, has anybody realised that, according to the CAD's published recently,  the coaches will not provide for articulated couplings? In 2020? 

 

I would like to acquire such rake of coaches e.g. to go with era 2 GWR engines, but no articulated couplings? According to my files, the last passenger coach without articulated NEM coupling shafts has been acquired in 1988...

 

Cheers,

Mark

Having watched the videos shared by Hattons, it appears the coupling mounts do swivel: 
Good news for those who want to use rigid bar couplings or Hunt couplings. As a tension-lock user with gentle curves myself, I'll probably glue mine centrally.

[jhb171achil]

Before seeing this thread, only this evening I had posted questions on the main Irish forums as to whether anyone knew if the panelling detail was PRINTED on or embossed.

 

Then, also this evening, I saw the above Hattons video of the samples. I have to say that the idea of them being generic in the first place initially didn't bowl me over, but when I saw those completed examples in Hatton's video - WOW.

 

Until the 1920s/30s, the vast, vast majority of Irish coaches were six-wheelers. We never had the long wheelbase 4-wheelers here, but a glaring gap in the Irish RTR market for a long time has been ANY type of six-wheeler.  There are kits from SSM and Worsley "scratch-aid" versions, but nothing RTR.

 

By what I realise must be coincidence, these Hattons coaches would pass very well indeed for certain types operated by the Great Southern & Western Railway here. As such, in theory, they ran in very dark maroon, then a lighter LMS-type shade, then a dark green, and quite a few were still in traffic until 1963, by now in a green not unlike the late 1960s Isle of Man loco green.

 

I am certain that a number could be sold in one of the later CIE liveries; I wonder if Hattons might be amenable to doing a run of these?

 

Certainly, I'll be after a few of them, as I model 1955-65 era. If I have to repaint them, so be it.

[Skinnylinny]

Good to hear I won't be the only one ordering these to repaint them. I'd suggest offering offering an unpainted batch to Hattons but I know that while I want gas lighting, there'll be those who want electric or oil, or Mansell vs. disc wheels and that would likely dilute down the demand for unpainted ones even more. Perhaps any seconds-quality models (due to printing misalignment on those beautifully-complex pre-grouping models) could be made available for those of us wanting to repaint? A chance to recoup part of what is traditionally a loss-maker.

How about it, @Hattons Dave?

[PhilJ W]

6 minutes ago, Skinnylinny said:

Good to hear I won't be the only one ordering these to repaint them. I'd suggest offering offering an unpainted batch to Hattons but I know that while I want gas lighting, there'll be those who want electric or oil, or Mansell vs. disc wheels and that would likely dilute down the demand for unpainted ones even more. Perhaps any seconds-quality models (due to printing misalignment on those beautifully-complex pre-grouping models) could be made available for those of us wanting to repaint? A chance to recoup part of what is traditionally a loss-maker.

How about it, @Hattons Dave?

Oxford Diecast sell off seconds and damaged diecast models.

[Skinnylinny]

6 minutes ago, PhilJ W said:

Oxford Diecast sell off seconds and damaged diecast models.

They also do the same with their Oxford Rail stock at shows, although obviously not at the moment! 

[jhb171achil]

May I echo what Skinnylinny says above, and ask "How about it, @Hattons Dave?" Serious enquiry?

 

Just from people I know here (in Ireland), I believe there's a small demand for such items. 

[PhilJ W]

5 hours ago, Skinnylinny said:

Good to hear I won't be the only one ordering these to repaint them. I'd suggest offering offering an unpainted batch to Hattons but I know that while I want gas lighting, there'll be those who want electric or oil, or Mansell vs. disc wheels and that would likely dilute down the demand for unpainted ones even more. Perhaps any seconds-quality models (due to printing misalignment on those beautifully-complex pre-grouping models) could be made available for those of us wanting to repaint? A chance to recoup part of what is traditionally a loss-maker.

How about it, @Hattons Dave?

I would like to have electric lighting and disc wheels for a proposed Colonel Stephens type layout. I appreciate that the range of choices with all the wheel and lighting variations would make undecorated versions unviable so perhaps with each colour variation the type of wheels and lighting should be specified for those wanting to do repaints.

[truffy]

On 30/09/2020 at 17:49, PhilJ W said:

perhaps with each colour variation the type of wheels and lighting should be specified for those wanting to do repaints.

Swap wheels. Simples init?

[Skinnylinny]

15 minutes ago, truffy said:

Swap wheels. Simples init?

Not quite so simple - it looks like the Hattons wheels are using split axles for electrical pick-up. 

[Legend]

Certainly getting a fair bit of coverage on YouTube . Great marketing approach  from Hattons . I must admit I’ve gone from not being interested in these to “oh they look nice”  . A model that is so charming it generates its own market I think .  

[Oldddudders]

29 minutes ago, Legend said:

Certainly getting a fair bit of coverage on YouTube . Great marketing approach  from Hattons . I must admit I’ve gone from not being interested in these to “oh they look nice”  . A model that is so charming it generates its own market I think .  

Certain to be the case. In small houses, with one of the recent plethora of small tank engines - some in Pre-Grouping livery - this range enables a very pretty and authentic-looking train taking up less space. Thomas, Annie and Clarabel for adults, without the silly face. 

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

Thomas, Annie and Clarabel for adults, without the silly face. 

 

And a sight more accurate too. Anyone taking a look at the illustrations knows that Annie and Clarabel were steel-panelled bogie carriages, quite unlike any of the toy / model representations, including those made for TV.

[Phil Parker]

2 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

And a sight more accurate too. Anyone taking a look at the illustrations knows that Annie and Clarabel were steel-panelled bogie carriages, quite unlike any of the toy / model representations, including those made for TV.

 

Annie and Clarabel were bogie coaches, easily modelled with a pair of Tri-ang shorties. All those 4-wheel coaches are fake story.

[Compound2632]

8 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

Annie and Clarabel were bogie coaches, easily modelled with a pair of Tri-ang shorties. All those 4-wheel coaches are fake story.

 

But they're steel-panelled (like all Sodor standard gauge carriages) - so no beading. The best bet is a pair of Hornby LMS suburbans - composite and brake third. Not the Airfix / Dapol ones - Annie and Clarabel are clearly non-lavatory.

Edited October 2, 2020 by Compound2632

[PMP]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

- Annie and Clarabel are clearly non-lavatory.

I knew there was something about those two I didn’t like...

[Compound2632]

Apologies to @Phil Parker; I had assumed that by Triang shorties he meant the clerestories. But of course he knew better:

 

http://philsworkbench.blogspot.com/2017/04/annie-and-clarabel-done-right.html

 

[Phil Parker]

8 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Apologies to @Phil Parker; I had assumed that by Triang shorties he meant the clerestories. But of course he knew better:

 

http://philsworkbench.blogspot.com/2017/04/annie-and-clarabel-done-right.html

 

 

Thank you. I'll have no truck with this 4-wheel nonsense. I'm not really convinced by the idea of books after number 26 either. As for this new-fangled televisual thing. It will never catch on.

 

Now if you will excuse me, I've caught someone writing 'phone without the apostrophe... 

[Dunsignalling]

Aah. That makes sense now, the 9-inch suburbans.

 

I thought that by "shorties" he meant the old "6-inch" coaches!

 

If any straight examples of those do still exist; I'd think they are probably in the hands of dedicated collectors who would have apoplexy at the thought of using them as conversion fodder.....

 

John